Post-transmission: BBC Panorama documentary/investigation into vocational schools

[Suffolkgal]

Body shaming of children happens everywhere not just in ballet I do think we should remember that. It’s an awful thing but at the same time teachers are encouraged to monitor children’s packed lunches and raise concerns with parents if they are considered overweight- all those letters sent to parents over BMI a few years ago. I’m all for children being a healthy weight but this ain’t half a minefield. I was called plum duff at one school, woman mountain at college (my song apparently was three times a lady - put in a student newsletter) and known as the Norfolk dumpling by a very sweet elderly tutor at postgraduate level. Survived all that happily a bit thinner now which I chose for myself... just saying it’s all very muddy!

[Anna C]

If anyone hasn’t yet listened to the accompanying podcast, I urge you to do so.  It features other young people in addition to some of those featured in the Panorama programme, plus additional experts.  Extremely interesting:

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001qdt6

[Laburnum1]

12 hours ago, Suffolkgal said:

Body shaming of children happens everywhere not just in ballet I do think we should remember that. It’s an awful thing but at the same time teachers are encouraged to monitor children’s packed lunches and raise concerns with parents if they are considered overweight- all those letters sent to parents over BMI a few years ago. I’m all for children being a healthy weight but this ain’t half a minefield. I was called plum duff at one school, woman mountain at college (my song apparently was three times a lady - put in a student newsletter) and known as the Norfolk dumpling by a very sweet elderly tutor at postgraduate level. Survived all that happily a bit thinner now which I chose for myself... just saying it’s all very muddy!

The country is heading for an obesity crisis childrens weight is an emotive issue but , I think there’s a difference between alerting a parent that their child is statistically overweight based on their BMI than encouraging a young dancer whose is no doubt already slim whose BMI is healthy to lose weight making them unhealthy. 

[Anna C]

13 minutes ago, Laburnum1 said:

The country is heading for an obesity crisis childrens weight is an emotive issue but , I think there’s a difference between alerting a parent that their child is statistically overweight based on their BMI than encouraging a young dancer whose is no doubt already slim whose BMI is healthy to lose weight making them unhealthy. 

BMI has been proven to be outdated and inaccurate.  Children and teenagers often gain weight and have increased appetite before a growth spurt, and this is completely normal.  

 

If, in the 21st century, Lower Schools do not understand that children’s bodies change during puberty, and support & reassure their students that everything happening to their body is normal, then nothing is going to change.  
 

Likewise, if a student is talented enough to get a place at Upper School, that same student should not be body shamed within the first week.  
 

 

[Jewel]

If, in the 21st century, Lower Schools do not understand that children’s bodies change during puberty, and support & reassure their students that everything happening to their body is normal, then nothing is going to change.

 

My child was later diagnosed with a gynaecological condition that caused bloating.  No amount of "I can see your lunch" type comments were ever going to help!

[alison]

15 minutes ago, Jewel said:

If, in the 21st century, Lower Schools do not understand that children’s bodies change during puberty, and support & reassure their students that everything happening to their body is normal,

 

And does not doing so perhaps contribute to body dysmorphia?

[alison]

2 hours ago, Anna C said:

If anyone hasn’t yet listened to the accompanying podcast, I urge you to do so.  It features other young people in addition to some of those featured in the Panorama programme, plus additional experts.  Extremely interesting:

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001qdt6

 

Is that the File on 4 programme, Anna, or something additional?

[mum5678]

19 minutes ago, Laburnum1 said:

The country is heading for an obesity crisis childrens weight is an emotive issue but , I think there’s a difference between alerting a parent that their child is statistically overweight based on their BMI than encouraging a young dancer whose is no doubt already slim whose BMI is healthy to lose weight making them unhealthy. 

Whilst I appreciate it's not the finer point here, I think we need to be very careful bringing BMI in to the mix.... Although it's the regular tool used by many health practitioners for want of anything better, it is proven to be a very long outdated and highly inaccurate measure. It was a very old study (over 100 years), based on white men, generally ex forces, and was never intended to be used as a 'guide'. It ignores racial and gender differences, and the parameters have been changed over the years to suit American health insurance companies (literally, millions of Americans went to bed one night 'healthy' and woke up the next morning 'overweight' so that insurers could charge them more). There is no accounting of muscle mass, breast tissue and the differences those things might make - there's a lot of research into how flawed it is. (Dr Joshua Wolrich has written a good book on this, amongst others.)

 

I resonated strongly with the dancers in the documentary having personally suffered an ED for a number of years having weighed 'overweight' at doctors check ups... I was a UK size 8, 5ft 4in, 14 years old, and VERY fit (not a dancer but swimmer and played hockey player on youth international teams). I also has DD cup boobs and that probably had a lot to do with the 'weight'! Health checks were all great until the 'hop in the scales' moment, when I was declared overweight and should eat a little less... it's taken me 30 odd years to realise this was wrong and start to work through it. A lot of the details in the program were similar to what I experienced as a teenager, not from sports coaches but from doctors, and everything was always great until the 'scales' moment.

 

I know this is branching a little off the topic, and perhaps over-passionately put, but I think it's important to recognise that BMI is not as helpful a tool as it's perceived to be, particularly not for athletes, which our young dancers are. There are a huge number of young people who suffer with EDs, who aren't getting help because they don't fit the BMI criteria.... they are literally sent away until they get more poorly before they can access help (I see this regularly, first hand, working with psychologists who treat young people with EDs). As ballet parents, I feel we really need to be extra vigilant about this. 

[Anna C]

2 minutes ago, alison said:

 

And does not doing so perhaps contribute to body dysmorphia?

I would absolutely think it does.  Ballet + puberty is already a tricky combination, especially for girls doing pointework (balance is thrown off, there’s often one leg longer than the other, and so on); you’re surrounded by mirrors, you compare yourself to other students, your uniform leotard is often unflattering.  
 

Like bone structure, changes during puberty and while still growing are out of your control.  So if your physique is criticised in any way during this period, when you are powerless to control what your body is doing, you do 2 things.

 

Firstly, you control the only thing you CAN control; what you eat (or don’t eat).

 

Secondly, you often internalise the criticism and believe the voice that’s telling you you’re fat/untalented/bad/undeserving.  You actually start to see your reflection in the mirror through the distorted eyes of your critic, whether that critic is external (Teacher, parent, whoever), or internal - or both.

 

Then, if you are assessed out, or see your peers assessed out, simply for changes to their body that they cannot control, it confirms the message that it’s because you/they are “fat”, too muscly, too “soft”, too big-breasted, too “hippy”, *not good enough*.

 

Absolutely the prime environment for eating disorders, body dysmorphia, and mental health problems to thrive.

 

 

[Anna C]

17 minutes ago, alison said:

 

Is that the File on 4 programme, Anna, or something additional?

Yes, the File on 4 programme. 👍🏻

[taxi4ballet]

I agree that BMI is largely useless, especially for adolescents. My dd was in the 'normal' range until the day she switched from the child charts to the adult ones, whereupon in an instant she went from 'healthy' to 'underweight'. BMI takes no account whatsoever of people's natural skeletal frame either. 

[Colman]

BMI was invented as a tool to look at changes in population weights over time. It's completely useless at an individual level - the only possible use for it is to give a doctor an excuse to open a conversation to a patient who clearly has too high a body fat percentage.  It's especially useless for athletes - the classic being international rugby teams full of "morbidly obese" players - and adolescents. It's a cheap, easy and utterly inaccurate proxy for body fat % (unless, perhaps, you're a male white college student in the 1950s, which is were most of this sort of thing was originally calibrated).

 

(Even using BMI at a population level is complicated - how much of the increase is due to the fashion for bodybuilding, or the changes in ethnic makeup of the population?)

[Millicent]

My GP had my BMI recorded as something like 66 as for some reason they had recorded my height as 30cm! I saw "suggest weight management program" pop up on the GP's screen once so asked about it and that's when we realised what had happened. I don't know for how many years the GP practice had me registered as morbidly obese but did nothing about it! Sorry for the derail! 

[Dr Alison Stuart]

I am an ex ballet dancer who went through vocational training and now works as a chartered psychologist. At any one time roughly a third of my caseload is dance students/dancers. As a result, I am limited by confidentiality restrictions around what I can share. My comments are generalised and in no way directed at any particular school. Many will know that this issue is bigger than just the vocational schools.                           

 

I have been following this thread with interest. It seems to have become a ‘microcosm’ of what is occurring in and around some of the vocational schools. There is most definitely a vast discrepancy in terms of experiences that students will have going through vocational schools. This is representative of the dynamic being discussed and in no way should minimise the emotional pain and trauma that many have experienced. There will also be vast differences between schools. I should say that I do work with schools who really seem to care about their students and are open to hearing suggestions. They refer to offsite therapy when needed which is well utilised as the students appreciate this being away from their training.

 

A key point here is that ballet is an expressive art form. Many will go into ballet and discover this to be their primary vehicle for self expression. No student, no matter how talented, will reach their full potential in a culture where fear is being induced. Fear tops everything on the hierarchy of emotions and in effect what you end up with is young people existing in a survival responses-freeze, flight and fawn being the ones that will be most utilised given the environment. A dancer cannot be expressive in this state. Research alerts us to the risks of adverse childhood experiences upon health later in life. https://developingchild.harvard.edu/resources/aces-and-toxic-stress-frequently-asked-questions/ 
 

One of the things I have noted over the years is that emotional abuse is often harder to work with than say physical abuse because of the impact upon the individual. There is no scar or bruise to prove something took place. It is almost like messages are drip fed into individuals over years. It is a more subtle process but equally damaging process.     

 

Young people are increasingly aware of what is classed as abuse. Often they are scared to speak up for fear of ‘making it worse’ or limiting their already slim chances of success. They see others being subjected to harsh teaching practices, or worse still, other teachers being complicit in what other agencies might class as ‘abuse’.  This acts as almost a ‘double wounding’ as any thoughts about what is going on as being ‘wrong’ are rapidly swallowed into ‘I am the problem’. Imbed this within the context of a young person living away from home or with a family who is not able to piece together what might be going on behind closed doors and the fire is lit to at the very least to burn away at any sense of self esteem that was present prior to such encounters. 

                 

Bystander apathy is rife at present. This is surely a key factor that needs to be addressed in order to safeguard young people more effectively.  I stand by my comments from Radio 4  File on Four. An independent investigation needs to occur similar to the Whyte review into on British Gymnastics. 
https://www.uksport.gov.uk/resources/the-whyte-review                           Only then can relevant agencies be informed enough to allow positives to come from what many experienced. Perhaps a change.org petition to the government might be something to consider for this to investigated independently. We need to act now to protect the futures of this generation and those to come. 

Edited September 15, 2023 by Dr Alison Stuart
Typo

[Ondine]

Many will know that this issue is bigger than just the vocational schools.                           

I have just posted on another thread in 'Performances seen & general discussion' the news that the husband of the AD of the New Zealand Ballet, a former ballet master, was sacked and now has been banned from the premises for making 'inappropriate' comments to dancers who then complained. The comments apparently related to weight. There's a news report part way with a former dancer speaking of weight / health related issues.

 

Posting here  as it's clear this issue is not confined to the UK and affects company members as well a students. Brave people to raise heads and make such complaints.  Well done to those responsible for the welfare of dancers for taking this matter seriously and acting.

 

Thanks to @Ian Macmillan for posting the report in links yesterday.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 15, 2023 by Ondine

[Anna C]

1 hour ago, Dr Alison Stuart said:

Perhaps a change.org petition to the government might be something to consider for this to investigated independently.

I think this is a very good idea.  What initially prompted the Whyte Review into Gymnastics, do we know?  Was it the “Athlete A” documentary?

 

Leigh Day, the law firm asking on Twitter for people to come forward with their experiences of RBS, Elmhurst, Hammond, YDA (and the school in Hinkley that we do not discuss here) have an interesting article on the Whyte Review here:  https://www.leighday.co.uk/news/blog/2022-blogs/the-whyte-review-final-report-abuse-in-british-gymnastics/#:~:text=There were allegations of sexual,the gymnasts abused by Larry

 

I think it was @capybara who wondered whether The Charities Commission could also be involved - it sounds like it might be worth investigating, although not all the above schools are registered charities.

 

 

 

[littledancer99]

On 13/09/2023 at 17:55, Out-the-other-side said:

Sorry I should have clarified - those referenced in the documentary no longer teach at the school (but do elsewhere which is one of my biggest issues) 

Can LADO get involved with this person still working ?

[Balleteveryday]

I’m not in the ‘system’, but I am starting to realise how constrained company dancers are by tradition and passing on the ‘old ways’ and how little control the ‘artists’ (dancers) have. I watched a YouTube video a couple of days ago  with a female and male RB Principal dancer, the female  was derided for doing more pirouettes than she should have (as per tradition) in order to correct her position on the stage. To me this showed skill and adaptability but to the revered coach, this was essentially the end of the world! Why are these artists, who have trained for decades not ‘permitted’ to have an element of control/artistic licence in how they dance? Bringing it back to the topic of the thread, this is just an example of the control the old guard passes on and which puts these highly-skilled and beautiful artists in ‘their place’. Essentially it’s the same happening at the schools. A lack of ability for the students to help develop the genre and to imprint their own artistry and talent into the industry. If the companies change, the schools will. Tradition is important and should be part of the teaching, but so is inclusion and allowing students and company dancers to let us see other interpretations and expressions. By doing this it opens the world to so many more.

[capybara]

1 hour ago, Balleteveryday said:

I’m not in the ‘system’, but I am starting to realise how constrained company dancers are by tradition and passing on the ‘old ways’ and how little control the ‘artists’ (dancers) have. I watched a YouTube video a couple of days ago  with a female and male RB Principal dancer, the female  was derided for doing more pirouettes than she should have (as per tradition) in order to correct her position on the stage. To me this showed skill and adaptability but to the revered coach, this was essentially the end of the world! Why are these artists, who have trained for decades not ‘permitted’ to have an element of control/artistic licence in how they dance? Bringing it back to the topic of the thread, this is just an example of the control the old guard passes on and which puts these highly-skilled and beautiful artists in ‘their place’. Essentially it’s the same happening at the schools. A lack of ability for the students to help develop the genre and to imprint their own artistry and talent into the industry. If the companies change, the schools will. Tradition is important and should be part of the teaching, but so is inclusion and allowing students and company dancers to let us see other interpretations and expressions. By doing this it opens the world to so many more.

 

I do so agree with this. I don't think that I'm alone in having seen established artists in more than one Company treated by repetiteurs/teachers as if they were inexperienced students. Completely unacceptable and disrespectful at a personal level - the more so since, at worst, it can amount to artistic repression.

 

However, there are promising signs that a 'new generation' of coaches is more focused on helping dancers to evolve their own interpretations. Of course, the choreography needs to be delivered 'correctly' but why any Principal or Soloist should be expected to put up with (surely outdated) authoritarian approaches to developing a role is beyond my understanding.

 

[Ian Macmillan]

See today's Links - Aaron Watkins, ENB's new boss, has some things to say on this topic. 

[Anna C]

On 13/09/2023 at 22:54, Tulip said:

Very surprised Tring isn’t up there

@Tulip it is now, as is Central.

[Kerfuffle]

9 hours ago, capybara said:

 

I do so agree with this. I don't think that I'm alone in having seen established artists in more than one Company treated by repetiteurs/teachers as if they were inexperienced students. Completely unacceptable and disrespectful at a personal level - the more so since, at worst, it can amount to artistic repression.

 

However, there are promising signs that a 'new generation' of coaches is more focused on helping dancers to evolve their own interpretations. Of course, the choreography needs to be delivered 'correctly' but why any Principal or Soloist should be expected to put up with (surely outdated) authoritarian approaches to developing a role is beyond my understanding.

 

I think it’s really the amount of information that a dancer has to hold in their minds when learning a role which means professionals are reminded of certain technical elements. I don’t think that it’s meant to be patronising. My son is training as a classical singer (opera) and in this area singers have one to one teachers throughout their careers as well as in rehearsal. It’s just part of the process and doesn’t need to be belittling. 

[Ruby Foo]

9 hours ago, capybara said:

 

I do so agree with this. I don't think that I'm alone in having seen established artists in more than one Company treated by repetiteurs/teachers as if they were inexperienced students. Completely unacceptable and disrespectful at a personal level - the more so since, at worst, it can amount to artistic repression.

 

However, there are promising signs that a 'new generation' of coaches is more focused on helping dancers to evolve their own interpretations. Of course, the choreography needs to be delivered 'correctly' but why any Principal or Soloist should be expected to put up with (surely outdated) authoritarian approaches to developing a role is beyond my understanding.

 

I find it quite inspiring that dancers can still find their own artistic expression after the repressive training they receive.

At no point during my dd’s training was she ever treated as an individual with her own mind or personality. Never considered or consulted on her training or asked for any input or feedback. There was certainly no collaboration or endeavour to treat her as a developing person with her own creative ideas. 
There was a choreography competition which could be used to self express and be creative, but as far as the school training was concerned, the word  ‘machines’ comes to mind.

[Richard LH]

31 minutes ago, Ian Macmillan said:

See today's Links - Aaron Watkins, ENB's new boss, has some things to say on this topic. 

The sub-editorial byline reads "English National Ballet’s new boss Aaron Watkin tells Debra Craine why the age of the skinny ballerina is over", and I think this  promotes a current  misconception. Isn't simply labelling ballerinas as skinny,   just as potentially "body shaming" as some of the reports of dancers being criticised for being overweight? 

In fact the article itself is  rather better in describing Watkins's actual position..."He’s not fixated on the skinny ballerina body image and he does not expect his dancers to conform to a single type. “I’m not looking for uniformity. I’m looking for real personalities that shine on stage, an eclectic group of interesting people who can have the expectation of collaborating in their artistic journey. I’m allergic to the idea of treating dancers like children.”"

 

I don't think this is really anything new...as I have mentioned above, dancers, in UK ballet companies at least, already have this sort of variety of body type, though of course within the limits of the being fit enough to meet the demands of dancing the  ballet repertoire of the Company concerned.

 

 

[capybara]

18 minutes ago, Richard LH said:

(Quoting from Aaron  Watkin): “I’m looking for real personalities that shine on stage, an eclectic group of interesting people who can have the expectation of collaborating in their artistic journey. I’m allergic to the idea of treating dancers like children.”"

Exactly, especially that last sentence.

Maybe the subject of coaching dancers merits a thread of its own? I think I’ve been guilty of ‘going down a branch line’.

[Ruby Foo]

18 minutes ago, capybara said:

Exactly, especially that last sentence.

Maybe the subject of coaching dancers merits a thread of its own? I think I’ve been guilty of ‘going down a branch line’.

It may be a branch line but these connections all contribute to a healthy mind, a healthy dancer and a much stronger and exciting future for Ballet.

[BalletEnthusiast]

Having a distant connection to one of the schools discussed in the original Panorama programme, I have been reading through this thread with increasing dismay. Body-shaming and bullying...the TV programme and radio broadcast seems to be the tip of the iceberg judging by contributions on this thread. Body-shaming is in fact a form of bullying. Bullying by teachers has no place in any school, for any pupils, no matter if they are a minority of pupils. There is no excuse.

 

Thank you @Dr Alison Stuart for your contribution to the radio programme and to this forum. A truly independent investigation of these institutions does need to take place, like in British Gymnastics, as you said. Some of the schools mentioned are charities, some receive government MDS/ DADA funding, so asking for an investigation via change.org would seem to be a very relevant approach. It would be great if someone who knows how to frame such a request could put one together. I don't want these institutions to fail, but it seems they do need prompting to reflect on their practices. The Department for Education safeguarding leaflet 'Keeping Children Safe in Education' (which everyone working with children at these schools should have read) states that staff working with children are advised to maintain an attitude of  'it could happen here' (Para 51 of KCSIE 2023, sorry don't know how to post link to the document but it is publicly available). That should be the starting point for all the schools involved where such serious allegations have been made.

 

As an aside, I rang the public whistleblowing number for RBS which was staffed by independent experts. (It was mentioned on this thread somewhere). I was sounding them out before passing the number to a friend who might have wanted to use it. The whistleblowing person said that they were a private company. They would be collating complaints received and then passing them (anonymously) back to the school for them to deal with. They also said that their usual role with RBS was that they run this line for staff at the school to whistle-blow. The experts are indeed independent. But the people deciding what to do with the complaints are not. I decided not to bother passing the number onto my friend. Moderators, I have tried to be factual here. Please ask me to edit the post if necessary.

[LinMM]

I was very heartened by Watkin’s statements in this morning’s links. 

And nothing to do with the issues here but very pleased to see he’s thinking about a new Nutcracker!! But for another thread! 

[Ondine]

7 minutes ago, BalletEnthusiast said:

'Keeping Children Safe in Education'

 

Link:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/keeping-children-safe-in-education--2

 

Published 26 March 2015
Last updated 1 September 2023 - hide all updates

1. 1 September 2023

   The September 2023 version of the keeping children safe in education guidance is now in force, replacing previous versions. We initially published this for information in June. We have since made meaningful amendments to paragraphs 142, about the appropriateness of filtering and monitoring systems online, and 150, about guidance and resources on inspection. Annex F has a table of substantive changes from the September 2022 guidance.

 

Edited September 16, 2023 by Ondine

[Kerfuffle]

I would be also concerned that naturally petite dancers are given a hard time about their weight - if they are healthy in their mind and body that should be acceptable too. 

[Drdee]

The issue is nothing to do with size. It is about developing healthy and strong  (physically, mentally and emotionally) dancers in a nurturing and respectful learning environment. Poor practice needs to dealt with in a developmental way but I am sure that these things are not easy to change and do not happen overnight.  If anyone is interested in the change.org proposition or has any ideas about the best way to approach this please let us know. Happy to contribute is some way.

[Pas de Quatre]

I'm afraid although I think Watkins will do well, this interview repeated the cliche "real personalities that shine on stage". This has been said by numerous ADs of various companies over the last few decades. Also I think it a shame that in the provinces we are only offered Nutcracker. I don't particularly like that production and won't be buying tickets. However if they dared to tour the triple bill I would have rallied friends and bought several tickets.

[alison]

Yes, but experience suggests you'd be very much in the minority.

 

It might be nice to have a return to the triple-bill-plus-full-length on tours, but that's for another thread.