Ballet, dance (and books) and trigger warnings

[LinMM]

Balletfanp ….I find your post just unbelievable!! 
Between the ages of 13 and 15 I went with the family who had looked after me in holiday times for some years   (parents both working) 

to Broadmoor on a number of visits to see her husband who had attacked her but was suffering from Schizophrenia. I was completely fascinated by these trips as I learned very early on that you really couldn’t tell “mad” people from sane ones and that people are not “mad” all the time. 
I was able to talk to her husband …I’d known him since I was 10 ….and accept that I could enjoy talking to him  even though he’d done something bad as such. It felt a little strange at first and of course we could only see him when things were okay but I think it was a very valuable lesson about acceptance in life and only years later did I think to acknowledge my parents in this because they could have easily stopped me going but didn’t. 
From 15 onwards I worked the holidays. 
I don’t consider that I’ve had a particularly tough life but it does seem as if too many young people …not all of course…are just a little over protected if they genuinely need all these warnings.
I just hope that this actually doesn’t stop them doing or learning about things in reality but they’ve just got used to these sort of warnings being needed as the norm now. 
In the case that visiting a gaol may have upset some ….I have no doubt at all ….but this is NOT  a negative ….dealing with those feelings should help them to have more empathy in the future. 
It’s impossible to go through life with rose tinted spectacles forever! 

 

 

 

[Balletfanp]

54 minutes ago, LinMM said:

Balletfanp ….I find your post just unbelievable!! 

Sadly, completely true - of course, when the students left there was a lot of laughter but with the way things are they have to seem, at least, to be taken seriously.

55 minutes ago, LinMM said:

In the case that visiting a gaol may have upset some ….I have no doubt at all ….but this is NOT  a negative ….dealing with those feelings should help them to have more empathy in the future. 

Absolutely - surely the point of these attractions is to highlight what things were like for people in that situation back in the day and show how things have changed and how much we have to be thankful for.

[Ian Macmillan]

5 hours ago, Sim said:

Heaven help this country if it ever needs to defend itself again.  

In all of this, it may be worth bearing in mind the Oxford Union debate in the 1930s in which the House voted for the motion that it would "in no circumstances fight for King and country."  That was, of course, turned on its head in the five years or so from September 1939.  If a similar external threat should emerge once again, I like to think that the youth of the day would respond very much as it did in both 20th century conflicts.  

[Sim]

43 minutes ago, Ian Macmillan said:

In all of this, it may be worth bearing in mind the Oxford Union debate in the 1930s in which the House voted for the motion that it would "in no circumstances fight for King and country."  That was, of course, turned on its head in the five years or so from September 1939.  If a similar external threat should emerge once again, I like to think that the youth of the day would respond very much as it did in both 20th century conflicts.  

Let’s hope so, Ian.  But it probably wouldn’t be the university students who go to confront the horrors of war!  

[DanJL]

Personally I'd feel much more comfortable living in a country where no-one feels prepared to go to war. So sad that the world hasn't entirely moved on from this cruel folly and that for some this is a necessary part of life. 

[alison]

This has been split off (not too skillfully) from the thread 

 

[Pas de Quatre]

What amazes me about the need for trigger warnings on well known classics, is that it sits alongside the quite horrific content of mainstream media masquerading as entertainment!

[Emeralds]

I think the Telegraph article (which I could read in full on one device) misses the point of Petrushka/Petrouchka entirely by dismissing it as just “death of dot dot dot a puppet”.  

 

Whether it really needs a trigger warning or parental guidance note is a different matter. One of the children in our extended family came along when ENB performed it as part of a Ballets Russes triple bill, and said he found it scary/unsettling at the end, when the spirit of Petrushka appears, but only because the music was played so well and the dancers’ acting was so good that he was just as spooked as the Showman was. (My only occasional negative reaction when watching the ballet at a young age was that some productions dragged on too much.) He enjoyed the mixed bill as a whole. I don’t think Petrushka needs a trigger warning the way Judas Tree might, but I think a brief outline of all the plots of ballets should be given at the box office or booking website. 

 

I do think it’s useful for some works to have a guidance note eg some Rite of Spring productions, Mayerling, Le Parc, Manon, Creature, Taming of the Shrew, Onegin etc as some theatres don’t produce even a brief synopsis at all at the time of booking and some first time patrons might book them to bring young children or frail elderly relations thinking “oh, all ballet is sweet, pretty visuals, rated U and unchallenging” - the common image of ballet in many communities - and get quite shocked when presented with a “powerful and boundary breaking” piece. Also, sometimes it’s the adults who need the guidance note and not the kids- they might be expecting an evening of classical dance of the Les Sylphides-Serenade-Scenes de ballet variety (ooh, that would make a great triple bill) but get quite upset when it turns out to be full of blood-and-guts-and-messing-with-your-mind drama. 

Edited January 15, 2023 by Emeralds

[LinMM]

I absolutely love Petrouchka …though a long time now since I’ve seen it….though have always found it rather unsettling! Although the characters are supposed to be puppets they sort of come to Life so you see them for real people though rather stereotyped.  I loved Nureyev in this ballet and found the pathos he got into the role of Petrouchka extremely moving. 
When I first saw it I was in my mid to late 20’s and was enjoying my first return to ballet after a gap (from age 15) and luxuriating in all the adult ballet classes available in London!  I was suddenly into all things connected to Russian Ballet and was reading a book on Fokine at that time which was truly fascinating. 
The fact that this ballet is now considered for a trigger warning is a tribute to its powerfulness when performed well. Perhaps Fokine would be rather pleased! 

[Out-the-other-side]

Apologies for not being ballet related, but as the mother of a non dancing daughter with PTSD I have to say that trigger warnings are absolutely crucial.  She fought hard with her university to ensure trigger warnings were included for her course (film and television production) to enable her to make an informed decision and prepare mentally to engage with the content of her course. I feel upset (and angry) at the negative labels such as snowflake, woke, over protected etc etc when she and many others are traumatised adults trying to safely navigate their way through life and who frequently spend their life in a heightened state of alert to triggers for their trauma. What harm does it do to highlight these? One lecturer did have the gall to suggest that maybe the course was not suitable for her due to her request for trigger warnings  - well she qualified with a first and is successfully working within the industry so clearly not so. What was needed was empathy and understanding - which costs little and impacts hugely. 

[Sabine0308]

1 hour ago, Out-the-other-side said:

Apologies for not being ballet related, but as the mother of a non dancing daughter with PTSD I have to say that trigger warnings are absolutely crucial.  She fought hard with her university to ensure trigger warnings were included for her course (film and television production) to enable her to make an informed decision and prepare mentally to engage with the content of her course. I feel upset (and angry) at the negative labels such as snowflake, woke, over protected etc etc when she and many others are traumatised adults trying to safely navigate their way through life and who frequently spend their life in a heightened state of alert to triggers for their trauma. What harm does it do to highlight these? One lecturer did have the gall to suggest that maybe the course was not suitable for her due to her request for trigger warnings  - well she qualified with a first and is successfully working within the industry so clearly not so. What was needed was empathy and understanding - which costs little and impacts hugely. 

Thank you for your post, @Out-the-other-side. I too tend to consider trigger warnings as overrecation, but your post made me see the "other side of the coin". You are right, empathy and understanding are crucial, I feel we need much more of this especially in these times of turmoil. 

[LinMM]

I don’t think many people are seriously against trigger warnings as such! 
The discussion here has partly been around which works would be deemed as needing such warnings and who decides this etc. 

Some things reported in the press as needing such warnings have seemed a bit over the top hence the suggestion that some people may be a bit over protected!  
But nobody is saying anyone who has been through any genuine trauma should not have a warning about certain content in either the ballet world or any other scenario. 
 

I think the the “fear” around trigger warnings is that it can sometimes appear ( when reported in media etc) to be an attempt to get certain material banned or course material changed completely rather than just serve as a warning of content material for the user. 

What I’m genuinely trying to understand though is how can you decide what will trigger people apart from a few obvious areas. 
When any course is undertaken isn’t the content material pretty much well known for each term etc.? 
Is this not enough information to be able to self censor? 
So what does an actual official trigger warning on the material serve as an extra? ( eg: does having an official warning allow people on courses  to miss out certain content if they wish to?) 

Ive never actually seen one in place ….has anybody got a legitimate first hand example of one in place on an actual course or on a show etc. 

 

I agree with Emeralds above that Ballet companies or more the theatres where they are performing could do better at giving better publicity to the synopsis of what exactly is being performed in shows coming up soon so people are in no doubt about what they are likely to be seeing if they go. 
On a lighter note in this respect when I went to the matinee of Akram Khans Giselle in Southampton I don’t think they had made enough effort to emphasise this was a different interpretation of the original Ballet BEFORE the event. There were a lot of little girls and mums present obviously expecting to see the original they must have been a little disappointed!!  
Hasten to add I very much enjoyed this as an alternative Giselle but ….forewarned is pre armed as it were. 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 15, 2023 by LinMM

[Dawnstar]

I think what annoys me most about trigger warnings is they're selective & so often don't cover things that I find unpleasant. I have emetophobia but there are never trigger warnings given that someone will be acting being sick on stage. So if you're going to have trigger warnings then they should be helpful to everyone, not just helpful for certain issues. Last year I saw the musical version of From Here To Eternity and it had a whacking long list of trigger warnings, none of which bothered me while seeing the performance, but the one moment I found unpleasant didn't get a mention.

[Fonty]

I've got nothing against certain trigger warnings.  For example, strobe lighting can clearly cause serious issues for some people and therefore a warning is necessary.  I am more concerned about intellectual trigger warnings, which seem to be based on the concept that the content may contain certain views or discuss ideas that people might find offensive.  I felt that was being displayed in the original link I posted from Aberdeen University with regard to books such as Peter Pan or The Railway Children.  This is where I think we are straying dangerously into censorship.  If that kind of thing becomes routinely applied to everything - film, television, literature, art - then anything that strays  outside those guidelines runs the risk of being banned.  

 

Edited January 15, 2023 by Fonty

[Out-the-other-side]

2 hours ago, LinMM said:

When any course is undertaken isn’t the content material pretty much well known for each term etc.? 
Is this not enough information to be able to self censor? 
So what does an actual official trigger warning on the material serve as an extra? ( eg: does having an official warning allow people on courses  to miss out certain content if they wish to?) 

My daughter absolutely did not want to miss out content not for content to be censored or banned but wanted to be prepared for its impact on her and for her lecturers to understand why the usually very outspoken student might appear withdrawn and not willing to participate in certain discussions or even conversely become very agitated and perhaps even confrontational in others (for example when discussing the works of certain high profile figures in the film industry who have since been convicted of violent acts against women.) Compassion and understanding was the key.  It allowed her to view the content prior to being viewed in public and to be in control of  how she would respond in that situation.  The breadth of films studied meant that, although it was easy to research content of some, for others it was more difficult/ not possible. With a diagnosed and significant mental health issue, the inclusion of trigger warnings for us was a reasonable adjustment to be made. And, to give credit to the course leader, he was, and continues to be, incredibly supportive. 
For people with PTSD, certain scenes and references are not merely upsetting or offensive to their sensitivities. They are what precisely what they say - a trigger of the horror of the original trauma. Sufferers can be taken immediately back to that moment and their response to it. They relive the moment. Warnings allow them some control. 

[Suffolkgal]

a friend of mine  lectures university students in news journalism - they had to be careful not to "upset" these potential reporters by sharing examples of news content from - for example - 9/11, plane and train crashes, war and so on. Could not make it up!

[LinMM]

Yes I’ve been reading a bit more about it and for it to be really successful it needs the tutors to be sympathetic so the whole situation is clear for all the students on any particular course so things can then be discussed more sensitively in certain circumstances. 

Of course not all students traumatised will want how that happened revealed to others at the actual time of studying especially if still processing feelings about events or even still in therapy. So then trigger warnings may be very helpful so you can decide how to engage ….though in the end responses may not always be controllable inspite of warnings because of the time lag between intellectual and emotional coming to terms with events.  
A very sympathetic American tutor who used trigger warnings on her Literature courses did end up changing her course a little by making two of the books on the course come under “extra  reading” rather than as a mandatory part of the course. But did not want to remove the material completely from the course because it was so good …so a very small compromise which seemed to work for all. 
There are lists of the main sorts of things which can cause triggering events some very obvious of course but probably impossible to cater for every single person. 

 

[Sophoife]

You could easily identify those of us who actually read Jude the Obscure in high school.

 

Those who cheated by using what are now called CliffsNotes or similar study guides were equally easy to pick, as they were puzzled both by our reactions, and by some of the essay questions!

 

 

Edited January 15, 2023 by Sophoife
Added last phrase

[Fonty]

@Out-the-other-sideI just wanted to make it clear that in my last post I wasn't referring to the situation your daughter found herself in.  Of course, someone with PTSD has a very real need to be warned about anything that could cause them enormous personal stress and pain, and I have every sympathy for her.  I am glad that the tutors dealt with the situation sensitively, and she was able to complete her course with flying colours.  

 

I was talking about the idea that seems to be getting more common, if the press is to be believed, that students should be able to opt out of something purely because they "might" find it upsetting.   With no specific reason for being upset other than the fact that culturally it refers to issues that today are unacceptable e.g the treatment of women or slavery.  The knock on effect from that is that certain books or films might then be banned.  I've heard that there are strenuous objections to Gone with the Wind for example, and requests for the book to be removed from bookshelves.   

I am still utterly baffled as to what could be the problem with The Railway Children or The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. 

Edited January 15, 2023 by Fonty

[Sim]

4 minutes ago, Fonty said:

@Out-the-other-sideI just wanted to make it clear that in my last post I wasn't referring to the situation your daughter found herself in.  Of course, someone with PTSD has a very real need to be warned about anything that could cause them enormous personal stress and pain, and I have every sympathy for her.  I am glad that the tutors dealt with the situation sensitively, and she was able to complete her course with flying colours.  

 

I was talking about the idea that seems to be getting more common, if the press is to be believed, that students should be able to opt out of something purely because they "might" find it upsetting.   With no specific reason for being upset other than the fact that culturally it refers to issues that today are unacceptable e.g the treatment of women.  I am still utterly baffled as to what could be the problem with The Railway Children or The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. 

This is the whole problem these days.  If you look hard enough, you can find something to be offended by in anything and everything.  I understand that trigger warnings can save a lot of upset to vulnerable or ill people.  But as you say, Fonty, I just worry that it's the thin end of the wedge.  First the trigger warnings, then the complaints, then the banning, whether officially or by stealth (i.e. just not showing/publishing things anymore, so that the choice is removed from us).  Perhaps just keep the trigger warnings, and then those who think they might be offended, or have something nasty or upsetting triggered within them, can choose to refrain from attending/reading/watching.  Conversely, others can choose to do those very things.  What I am worried about is simply that, more and more, that choice is being removed.

[Dawnstar]

8 minutes ago, Fonty said:

I am still utterly baffled as to what could be the problem with The Railway Children or The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. 

 

Reading the latter as a child put me off Turkish delight for life! Of course Aslan's death scene is upsetting but it's supposed to be upsetting, then you get the pay off relief when he comes back to life. Surely part of the point of children's books having a certain amount of sadness & death in them is to prepare children for the fact that sadness & death occur in real life. If anyone really has a problem with The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe then I hope they steer well clear of The Last Battle, which is much worse. There's one scene in that which I cry at every time I read it as an adult!

[Fonty]

2 minutes ago, Dawnstar said:

 

Reading the latter as a child put me off Turkish delight for life! Of course Aslan's death scene is upsetting but it's supposed to be upsetting, then you get the pay off relief when he comes back to life. Surely part of the point of children's books having a certain amount of sadness & death in them is to prepare children for the fact that sadness & death occur in real life. If anyone really has a problem with The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe then I hope they steer well clear of The Last Battle, which is much worse. There's one scene in that which I cry at every time I read it as an adult!

 

 

The Last Battle is a very sombre book indeed.  And I remember the picture of the god Tash did give me a couple of sleepless nights when I first read it as a child.  

[Dawnstar]

3 minutes ago, Fonty said:

The Last Battle is a very sombre book indeed.  And I remember the picture of the god Tash did give me a couple of sleepless nights when I first read it as a child.  

 

I think I was okay with that illustration. The one that I found scary was one in Prince Caspian where a werewolf was illustrated mid-change. Something about the wolf body still with human hands & feet I found much worse than either full human or full wolf. Actually in general I'd say I found illustrations scarier than text descriptions as a child. In Roald Dahl's books it's Quentin Blake's illustrations of horrible happenings that still haunt me more than Dahl's text does, to the extent I feel slightly sick if I happen to see greetings cards illustrated by Blake on sale because his style is so recognisable.

[maryrosesatonapin]

5 hours ago, Dawnstar said:

I think what annoys me most about trigger warnings is they're selective & so often don't cover things that I find unpleasant. I have emetophobia but there are never trigger warnings given that someone will be acting being sick on stage. So if you're going to have trigger warnings then they should be helpful to everyone, not just helpful for certain issues. 

Oh, me too!  I tend to find ballet is a 'safe haven' but alas not absolutely always....  Nearly every book I read, series I watch or film I see seems to have some mention of, or actual, vomit.  It really spoils things for me.

 

[Dawnstar]

2 minutes ago, maryrosesatonapin said:

Oh, me too!  I tend to find ballet is a 'safe haven' but alas not absolutely always....  Nearly every book I read, series I watch or film I see seems to have some mention of, or actual, vomit.  It really spoils things for me.

 

I could do without the man retching while exiting the Capulets' ball in R&J, and some of Juliet's reactions to taking the sleeping draught for that matter. I have yet to see Like Water For Chocolate, having had covid when I was supposed to see it live, and am hesitating over whether to see it at the cinema as I gather there's a mass outbreak of magical food poisoning & I'm not sure I want to see that in close up.

[alison]

Out-the-other-side, thank you for your frankness in posting, and I hope this thread hasn't brought back too many unpleasant memories for you.  I'd prefer to change the title, but I can't come up with any better ideas of what to call it.

 

3 hours ago, Dawnstar said:

If anyone really has a problem with The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe then I hope they steer well clear of The Last Battle, which is much worse. There's one scene in that which I cry at every time I read it as an adult!

Mine are in storage, so I haven't read them for over a decade, but I think I know the passage you mean, because it has the same effect on me!

 

3 hours ago, Fonty said:

The Last Battle is a very sombre book indeed.  And I remember the picture of the god Tash did give me a couple of sleepless nights when I first read it as a child.  

Ugh.  Yes, indeed.

 

3 hours ago, Dawnstar said:

I think I was okay with that illustration. The one that I found scary was one in Prince Caspian where a werewolf was illustrated mid-change.

That one, too. Even thinking of either of them still brings out a reaction in me, but I wouldn't go as far as to describe it as "triggered".

[balletfanatic]

8 hours ago, alison said:

Out-the-other-side, thank you for your frankness in posting, and I hope this thread hasn't brought back too many unpleasant memories for you.  I'd prefer to change the title, but I can't come up with any better ideas of what to call it.

 

Mine are in storage, so I haven't read them for over a decade, but I think I know the passage you mean, because it has the same effect on me!

 

Ugh.  Yes, indeed.

 

That one, too. Even thinking of either of them still brings out a reaction in me, but I wouldn't go as far as to describe it as "triggered".

My late grandmother was Austrian.. she had a book of cautionary tales for children called strewdel Peter. Not sure of the spelling. It was beautifully written but stories were about children who didn't want to eat and starved to death or played with matches and burned to death. It gave me nightmares for years particularly the illustrations 

[Mary]

We only have to glance at the news though. Life has no warnings, it just happens. Terrible, unspeakable things are happening. I suppose we can try to ignore and shut it out, avoid being upset.

But perhaps the best approach is to give people when they are  growing up strong principles and courage to deal with, and try to improve things.  I admire the many young people who are doing just that.

 

[alison]

1 hour ago, balletfanatic said:

My late grandmother was Austrian.. she had a book of cautionary tales for children called strewdel Peter. Not sure of the spelling. It was beautifully written but stories were about children who didn't want to eat and starved to death or played with matches and burned to death. It gave me nightmares for years particularly the illustrations 

Struwelpeter?  Or possibly Struwwelpeter?  I think I've seen it available in a few dialects, unless it was simply different languages.  And it was (is?) available in English, too.  Yes, the illustrations were pretty scary - although I don't remember them having any lasting effect on me.  I think Victorian children must have been quite robust!

[Silke H]

On 13/01/2023 at 09:19, trog said:

When Ballet Cymru do their Cinderella, the ugly sisters have the toes cut off when they try to put on the slipper. There have always been many children in the audience when I have see it and from what I could see none were bothered.

So that is quite close to the original Grimm's Cinderella then, where the first one sister cuts off her toes, then the other one her heel so that they can fit in Cinderella's glass slipper.  Both times the prince is unaware and takes first one, then the other sister with him and rides off home until the doves alert him to the blood in the respective sister's shoe, that the shoe is to small and that the correct sister is still at home. "Rucke di gu, rucke di gu, Blut is im Shuh, der Schuh ist zu klein, die rechte Braut sitzt noch daheim."

The original Grimm's fairy tales are typically quite dark, unlike the pretty Disney versions.

[balletfanatic]

1 hour ago, alison said:

Struwelpeter?  Or possibly Struwwelpeter?  I think I've seen it available in a few dialects, unless it was simply different languages.  And it was (is?) available in English, too.  Yes, the illustrations were pretty scary - although I don't remember them having any lasting effect on me.  I think Victorian children must have been quite robust!

Yes that's it. We had an English version. It literally scared the life out of me and I'm quite robust! I'm not sure I could even read it now as an adult 

[Silke H]

Oh yes, Struwwelpeter book is another scary one.  The story where the boy doesn't want to eat his soup and dies eventually...

[alison]

Oh, I'm quite fond of it - but then I do have a bit of a sick sense of humour   But yes, I suppose the illustrations aren't exactly pleasant.

 

(I think I may need to amend the title to include books, at this rate!)