Ballet, dance (and books) and trigger warnings

[Sim]

55 minutes ago, Fonty said:

 

I won't ask why, but I do hope it isn't for the reason expressed by @Dawnstar

 

On that topic, a friend in Scotland made me aware of the following article:

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/aberdeen-university-peter-pan-novel-trigger-warning-b1051745.html

 

 

I have no words, Fonty.  Well I do, but my fellow mods would have to hide my post!  

[alison]

4 hours ago, Sim said:

I have no words, Fonty.  Well I do, but my fellow mods would have to hide my post!  

 

Well, I guess child abandonment might come too close to the bone for some people.

[Sim]

4 minutes ago, alison said:

 

Well, I guess child abandonment might come too close to the bone for some people.

Well just about every child’s novel or fairytale has a dark side in one way or another.  I guess that means everything should have a trigger warning these days.   Hansel and Gretl?  Cinderella?  Bambi?  The list is never ending.  

[bridiem]

2 hours ago, Sim said:

Well just about every child’s novel or fairytale has a dark side in one way or another.  I guess that means everything should have a trigger warning these days.   Hansel and Gretl?  Cinderella?  Bambi?  The list is never ending.  

 

Yes; and that's just children's literature! Imagine doing a course on literature for adults! The list would presumably include every single title to be studied, none of which could in fact be studied if the aim is to avoid being challenged emotionally (or intellectually, of course).

[balletfanatic]

This makes me so mad this kind of censorship. We are adults, if we might be offended by a ballet we can choose not to go. Don't stop other people going. It's like 1984 come true

[DVDfan]

Of course it can get silly, as can any movement, but the basic idea is not silly. I have relatives who suffer PTSD and trigger warnings on films and TV are very helpful, as flashbacks can be very serious. However, there is a difference between measures to protect the vulnerable in our society whilst still allowing them to enjoy as much theatre, film and literature as possible, and Woke censorship. I haven't seen the details, but the Peter Pan thing sounds like the latter dressed up as the former.

 

 

 

[alison]

Hardly censorship, though.

[LinMM]

I think these trigger warnings are just that a warning there might be sensitive material in the content …I don’t think they are telling people not to read a book or not to watch a programme …it’s so that any person who might be particularly affected can make up their own mind it’s definitely not banning it…well at the moment anyway. 
I may think some of the books/films on the lists with these warnings are just a little absurd but at least there is a choice. 
I think the Fille situation is more serious though as it is a ballet being withheld ….or apparently withheld ….because that is more censorship and others making the decision for you of what is suitable for you to see or not. 
Could we not see Fille with a trigger warning? Or certain ballets be deemed not suitable for people under 16/18 etc so then see at own risk but the advice is there. 
Usually though by the time you reach school leaving age …which today is 18…you are usually judged as mature enough to deal with more difficult and complex material. 
However I’d be happy with a trigger warning on things as long as just not banned completely. 

 

[Sim]

1 hour ago, alison said:

Hardly censorship, though.

I would say that having people decide on our behalf what we might be offended by or what we can and can’t see is definitely a form of censorship.  

[bridiem]

32 minutes ago, LinMM said:

However I’d be happy with a trigger warning on things as long as just not banned completely. 

 

The trouble being that almost every work has the potential to upset or offend or 'trigger' someone about something.

[LinMM]

Well yes that’s true in the end. 
Most of us are quite capable of censoring material we want to read watch or see for ourselves. 
Probably 60-70 percent of the population will have had some serious negative experience/s by the time they reach 50 and certainly include myself in this but I know for myself what not to read/ watch etc if I know the subject matter is likely to upset me. 
I wonder if the problem is that in more recent years there has been a tendency to sue people/ organisations etc for any “harm” caused by experiencing their material and so now there is more reluctance to show/offer certain things in case there is some kind of backlash. So these warnings are a way of protecting authors/ organisations/ educational institutions and even choreographers from being sued. 
But if a ballet like Fille needs some kind of warning then definitely ballets like Mayerling and Manon will need them too and probably even R&J! 

 

[balletfanatic]

2 hours ago, alison said:

Hardly censorship, though.

It's censorship if they don't allow a particular ballet to be performed any more ie bayadere

[LinMM]

I think I’m getting the same ….that in my older age I don’t want anything too distressing or even too deep ….or not too often at least! It’s probably one of the reasons I didn’t really enjoy ENB’s Creature….apart from the music which also drove me mad. 

Month in the Country is becoming about my level  for drama these days!! 
Up to about ten years ago I used to go to lots of quite searing dramas  in the theatre…seeing Diana Rigg in a small space like the Almeida in Medea was one of the more powerful ones. And Ruth Wilson was amazing in Through a Glass Darkly but also remember seeing quite a few very Black Comedies of Jo Orton some years ago now. But I was up for almost anything back then. 
I even liked some of Macmillan’s darker pieces rarely shown in the current Rep. A piece like Las Hermanas could be quite challenging as is his piece The Judas Tree….could definitely make me feel very uncomfortable ……but part of the darker side of Life so I certainly don’t think Ballet should shy away from such issues….though I’d probably choose Concerto over the Judas Tree these days if it had to be one or the other! 

 

[Jan McNulty]

On 10/01/2023 at 00:16, Sim said:

Well just about every child’s novel or fairytale has a dark side in one way or another.  I guess that means everything should have a trigger warning these days.   Hansel and Gretl?  Cinderella?  Bambi?  The list is never ending.  

 

For anyone who can read this article:

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/01/12/stravinsky-ballet-trigger-warning-on-stage-death-puppet/

[bridiem]

36 minutes ago, Jan McNulty said:

For anyone who can read this article:

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/01/12/stravinsky-ballet-trigger-warning-on-stage-death-puppet/

 

Words fail me.

[Jan McNulty]

1 minute ago, bridiem said:

 

Words fail me.

 

I've been wondering in general since reading this article.

 

How come there are all these trigger-warning attacks on ballet and literature when the same does not seem to be done for film or TV?

[trog]

On 10/01/2023 at 00:16, Sim said:

Well just about every child’s novel or fairytale has a dark side in one way or another.  I guess that means everything should have a trigger warning these days.   Hansel and Gretl?  Cinderella?  Bambi?  The list is never ending.  

They will ban R&J next on the grounds she is 13.

 

When Ballet Cymru do their Cinderella, the ugly sisters have the toes cut off when they try to put on the slipper. There have always been many children in the audience when I have see it and from what I could see none were bothered.

[Jan McNulty]

Just now, trog said:

They will ban R&J next on the grounds she is 13.

 

When Ballet Cymru do their Cinderella, the ugly sisters have the toes cut off when they try to put on the slipper. There have always been many children in the audience when I have see it and from what I could see none were bothered.

 

Well Olivia Hussey and Leonard Whiting are apparently suing Paramount over their appearances in Zefferelli's R&J and what they were expected to do.

 

Christopher Gable's Cinderella had a similar scene - all the children loved it and the adults shut their eyes!!

[zxDaveM]

21 minutes ago, Jan McNulty said:

 

How come there are all these trigger-warning attacks on ballet and literature when the same does not seem to be done for film or TV?

 

I suppose films have an age related certification warning responsible parents, and more grown-up telly is on after the watershed 9pm mark. Ballets etc may be assumed to be 'inoffensive' and then turn out not be (by some people's values). That's my guess as to the reasoning - but still sounds daft to me

Oh and saying that, I have noticed various warnings before most telly progs and films on TV (or stream services), for swearing, nudity, violence, 'injury detail' (?) etc, to flashing lights and the like - so they aren't immune from the dead hand of over protection.

Mind you, back in the day before such warnings, a lot of stuff that gets on telly would have been banned by the censor, so no warnings needed; then we went through a phase of 'let it all hang out' and be dammed - now they are warning us it's all hanging out, as it were

[Sim]

1 hour ago, bridiem said:

 

Words fail me.

And me.  

[Richard LH]

5 hours ago, trog said:

They will ban R&J next on the grounds she is 13.

 

When Ballet Cymru do their Cinderella, the ugly sisters have the toes cut off when they try to put on the slipper. There have always been many children in the audience when I have see it and from what I could see none were bothered.

Ugh!  Well I would be bothered at that...🤢 

[San Perregrino]

17 minutes ago, Richard LH said:

Ugh!  Well I would be bothered at that...🤢 

In the original fairytale they have their eyes pecked out by birds for their wickedness. There was a production a few years ago at the Lyric Hammersmith which was true to the dark original story. My goddaughter, 9 yrs old at the time, thought it much better than the panto version she had seen previously. 

[LinMM]

Yes children often have a very strong sense of Justice lol!! 

[Sim]

34 minutes ago, LinMM said:

Yes children often have a very strong sense of Justice lol!! 

And they are also very resilient!  I grew up watching Road Runner and Wile E. Coyote flatten each other in various ways, and lots of other cartoons where bad things happen.  Am I all messed up?  A matter of opinion, but I don't think so!!

 

Young people today are not being allowed to be prepared for the dark and difficult things that life throws at all of us.  I am thinking of a time, about 80 years ago, when young men who were about the same age as these university students (who apparently need to be warned about a puppet being stabbed or Peter Pan being potentially damaging) climbed into bombers after only a few weeks' training, knowing that there was a high chance that they were not coming back.  Their whole lives were still ahead of them, but they loved and wanted to defend their country.  The triggers they had to worry about were those being activated by enemy bombers and guns, that could inflict real damage.  For us, many of them made the ultimate sacrifice...'for our tomorrow, they gave their today.'  I am sure they must be spinning in their graves now, and wondering why they bothered.  

[Ian Macmillan]

Sim: Amen to all of that.  

[Balletfanp]

I work at a university, and a colleague of mine told me about a meeting she had been to where the students had been taken on an induction week ice breaker trip to Bodmin Gaol (a tourist attraction) and had complained that some of their number had been traumatised by it. They were also demanding trigger warnings on books and videos they needed to watch warning them of violent content and accounts of crimes and murders. The students were studying - wait for it - Criminal Justice! 😂 I’m not sure how they’re going to cope when they have to deal with stuff like that as a living….

[Sim]

Heaven help this country if it ever needs to defend itself again.  

[Fonty]

Children are also very practical.  They are quite capable of distinguishing between fact and fiction, especially when presented in the form of a fairy tale or a cartoon.  I used to adore Punch and Judy when I was a child; I never thought for one minute it was advocating physical violence by men against women.  They were puppets for goodness sake

 

On the topic of The Dream, I remember a review saying a new production was required because the costumes were old fashioned and and he felt uncomfortable because Oberon was wearing too much make up which made him look effeminate.   I found myself wondering what a modern day fairy would actually be wearing, and how anyone would know that Oberon was overly made up.  Maybe the critic had actually seen them in real life?

 

 

 

Edited January 13, 2023 by Fonty

[Scheherezade]

9 hours ago, Jan McNulty said:

 

I've been wondering in general since reading this article.

 

How come there are all these trigger-warning attacks on ballet and literature when the same does not seem to be done for film or TV?

A very good point!

[Scheherezade]

4 hours ago, PeterS said:

In the original fairytale they have their eyes pecked out by birds for their wickedness. There was a production a few years ago at the Lyric Hammersmith which was true to the dark original story. My goddaughter, 9 yrs old at the time, thought it much better than the panto version she had seen previously. 

Children love a bit of blood and guts. The original fairytales were full of it. Not to mention the likes of Roald Dahl. “You might think you know this story. You don’t, the real one’s much more gory.” Anyone?

Edited January 13, 2023 by Scheherezade

[Sim]

55 minutes ago, Fonty said:

Children are also very practical.  They are quite capable of distinguishing between fact and fiction, especially when presented in the form of a fairy tale or a cartoon.  I used to adore Punch and Judy when I was a child; I never thought for one minute it was advocating physical violence by men against women.  They were puppets for goodness sake

 

On the topic of The Dream, I remember a review saying a new production was required because the costumes were old fashioned and and he felt uncomfortable because Oberon was wearing too much make up which made him look effeminate.   I found myself wondering what a modern day fairy would actually be wearing, and how anyone would know that Oberon was overly made up.  Maybe the critic had actually seen them in real life?

 

 

 

But what's the problem with him looking effeminate?  I thought that was ok these days?  And Oberon is not supposed to be a macho man...he is a fairy.  I love Oberon's makeup.  But hey, I am obviously out of touch with everything these days!

[Richard LH]

13 minutes ago, Scheherezade said:

Children love a bit of blood and guts. The original fairytales were full of it. Not to mention the likes of Roald Dahl. “You might think you know this story. You don’t, the real one’s much more gory.” Anyone?

Indeed....our young grandchildren seem fine with stories I find unpleasant. 

[Dawnstar]

27 minutes ago, Scheherezade said:

Children love a bit of blood and guts. The original fairytales were full of it. Not to mention the likes of Roald Dahl. “You might think you know this story. You don’t, the real one’s much more gory.” Anyone?

 

I'd say some children do. Others, such as myself, don't. I still sometimes have nightmares about things I was scared by as a child. I found Roald Dahl pretty unpleasant as a child & as an adult I find him even more so. Some of the TV adaptations of books, including Dahl's, that we were shown at school absolutely horrified & revolted me.

 

It baffles me that current society deems it fine to have films & TV programmes where people are killed in many unpleasant ways yet apparently we're not allowed to see La Bayadere because it is a 19th century stereotype of Orientalism or La Fille Mal Gardee because a character is mentally subnormal.