Assessed out - success stories please

[Medora]

Does anyone have an uplifting story about being assessed out of a vocational school to share? Would love to hear of anyone has been through this and somehow managed to find success in their dance life.

Thanks in advance 

[Jan McNulty]

Sorry I've no personal experience but it was mentioned in a BRB Friends' talk years ago that a current BRB principal was assessed out of White Lodge and finished his training at Tring.  He's had a hugely successful career at BRB.

 

 

[rowan]

I can’t share personally, but the handful I know that did go to vocational school and were assessed out all still became professional dancers.

[meadowblythe]

My DS assessed out at the end of year 9 - told he would make a dancer, but never a ballet dancer.  Now a soloist in a small national ballet company, dancing exclusively ballet rep.  He was never good enough to make it to a UK main company but he's happy and fulfilled.

 

Being assessed out was the best thing that happened to him.  He had the prestige of a top-flight school on his CV (when you could still get a job in Europe!)  and spent two happy years at a school he was more suited to for years 10-11.  He had been totally miserable and neglected up until that point.  Several offers for US but was able to have the confidence to "go with his gut" and pick the school he felt he would be happiest at, and had the resilience to move further away and live a more independent life.

 

I used to look at my upper sixth, angsting about having to move 40 miles from home next year  knowing my son, who was the same age,  was living on a flat with a jazz musician in Glasgow several hundred miles from home!

[alison]

I'm not sure whether it's technically an assessing-out, but (Royal Ballet First Soloist) Melissa Hamilton was advised to give up by a teacher at Elmhurst:

 

https://balletassociation.co.uk/pages/reports-2009-melissa-hamilton?_pos=1&_sid=b77d6386c&_ss=r

[Medora]

Thanks everyone, much appreciated.

[Tiaramum]

Just as a side note RBS now have two programmes for the 5 years at whitelodge, the foundation programme covering years 7,8,9 and then the development programme for 10 and 11. Those dancers finishing  year 9 in July at White Lodge have not been assessed out, they have finished the programme and for whatever reason did not get offered a year 10 place. There is still a lot of assumptions made that students have been assessed out. I've no idea whether this thread is related to White Lodge or not but feel its important to get this message out there. 

 

 

[Farawaydancer]

21 minutes ago, Tiaramum said:

Just as a side note RBS now have two programmes for the 5 years at whitelodge, the foundation programme covering years 7,8,9 and then the development programme for 10 and 11. Those dancers finishing  year 9 in July at White Lodge have not been assessed out, they have finished the programme and for whatever reason did not get offered a year 10 place. There is still a lot of assumptions made that students have been assessed out. I've no idea whether this thread is related to White Lodge or not but feel its important to get this message out there. 

 

 

That’s just assessing out with a different name. I doubt the year 9s who aren’t staying into y10 see it as anything else. (Unless of course they’re choosing to leave for their own reasons)

[Tiaramum]

1 hour ago, Farawaydancer said:

That’s just assessing out with a different name. I doubt the year 9s who aren’t staying into y10 see it as anything else. (Unless of course they’re choosing to leave for their own reasons)

I appreciate your view, these kids have not been accepted into year 10, they have NOT been assessed out, they successfully completed the three year programme and you can't take that away from them. Yes they will be upset they are not able to stay on but they should equally be exceptionally proud of themselves 

[Ruby Foo]

Any student who completes a single year of vocational ballet/ dance school  should be extremely proud of themselves! But it doesn't alter the fact that it's the same process as it always was, but in a slightly more clever/positive framework, which will eradicate much of the criticism. However, It will take a while for the students to think about this in a different light, if at all. 

[Jewel]

I agree, it is assessing out by a different name.

[Kerfuffle]

I think it’s a difficult hurdle for them to face and a hard to have to make just before GCSEs. I guess it does give the children a bit longer to develop and perhaps it’s at an age where the ballet school has a better idea of whether the children are fulfilling their promise and have the right physique following puberty. I feel it would be better if children were chosen nearer 14 but I guess this is impossible with our exam system here. 

[NotadanceMa]

7 hours ago, Tiaramum said:

I appreciate your view, these kids have not been accepted into year 10, they have NOT been assessed out, they successfully completed the three year programme and you can't take that away from them. Yes they will be upset they are not able to stay on but they should equally be exceptionally proud of themselves 

Of course they are being assessed out. It is disingenuous to perhaps suggest otherwise.

Yes all credit to the children for getting through the 3 years, or the final 2 years, however RBS/WL  is not anywhere I can see, advertising two separate training programs for Lower School. I could be wrong, but assessing out is still happening, just not from end of Y7 as it was with my child’s cohort.

All the children I know entering at Y7 will be anticipating/hoping to go all the way through. Caveat; those choosing to leave at any point.

[AllAboutTheJourney]

I don’t want to assume that this thread is about any particular school, but to answer the post above - yes RBS are very much advertising two separate programmes for lower school now. That has been very clear all through this year’s audition process and was explained at length on the recent zoom call for parents and finalists. 
 

I totally agree with the comments above - all the current y9s have completed the first three year programme and well done to them for having done so. Some will have been accepted into the next programme and others not - but I think it’s positive to look at that first three year programme in and of itself.

 

We all know the chances of anyone making it to a professional ballet company are exceptionally slim. There’s also been a huge amount of criticism of the ‘old methods’ of assessing out at will. Surely then its a good thing to see each step of the journey in and of itself - and to encourage our children to take from it whatever skills/discipline/confidence/learning they can? 
 

 

[Jewel]

And what happens to those who haven’t been accepted into the 2nd part if the programme?  They will be allocated whatever local schools have spare places (often the not so good schools) and will struggle with gcse options as many schools take options and start GCSEs at the end of Year 8. 
 

Unlike the end of year 11, Year 9 is not a natural change of school time in England & Wales so these children will be hugely disadvantaged. 

[AllAboutTheJourney]

I’m not sure if your point is directed at me or not but there are quite a lot of assumptions there. There are many ways to approach academic schooling these days, also not everyone lives (i) in England or (ii) in an area where good local schools are oversubscribed. 
 

I assume anyone considering any vocational school has a Plan B for what happens if you don’t end up staying there long term. That doesn’t take anything away from the teenagers who are now going to be moving on to a different chapter in their education. 

[Kerfuffle]

I guess that even if they find another school they might still have problems getting the funding, which adds to the upset. I suppose that from the moment a child starts at vocational parents have to plan for this. I wonder if it will lead to more places in year 10 for those who haven’t gone to vocational at y7? 

[Aklf]

I think the new RBS approach means that parents and children can always have a plan B in mind for year 10. They will also be secure knowing that they are guaranteed the first 3 years at White Lodge (and possibly an additional 2 if offered yr 10/11.) In my experience,  about 95% of students who were assessed out under the old system continued to train in different high standard vocational schools around the world. Rarely do children who are so passionate and devoted to ballet quit suddenly because they have been assessed out of one school. This could be for so many reasons- injury and injury recovery rate, physical strength, stamina, attitude and behaviour. Nobody will deny it’s a tough process but these young people are exceptionally resilient and do find an alternative path- one that suits them at that stage of their ballet journey. Some even rejoin RBS for upper school. 

In the UK there are lots of other great schools - YDA in London, Moorland, Elmhurst, Hammond, Tring Park etc. Students who have spent any time at RBS are clearly talented and will audition successfully to join a new school if that’s their wish. 

[Neverdancedjustamum]

13 minutes ago, Kerfuffle said:

I guess that even if they find another school they might still have problems getting the funding, which adds to the upset. I suppose that from the moment a child starts at vocational parents have to plan for this. I wonder if it will lead to more places in year 10 for those who haven’t gone to vocational at y7? 

I’m sure I might be mistaken because I don’t have first hand experience but I assume at Y10 some of the main contenders would be from overseas. They’re at that age where their families would probably be more comfortable with their DCs boarding far from home and I’ve seen some exquisitely trained international dancers(who often come over for SIs here). I look at competitors at say YAGP, Prix de Lausanne, AGP, etc similar age to my DD but seem on a different level all together. If I were to hazard a guess, the ratio of UK vs international DCs inviter to a certain school’s finals for entry to Years 9/10/11 would be heavily skewed towards internationals. Correct me if I’m wrong, as I said, this is simply a guess. Perhaps the UK is slowly going that way and I’m noticing that every year, DCs who seem very extensively and intensively trained get those highly coveted Y7 places. 

Edited March 22, 2022 by Neverdancedjustamum

[Kerfuffle]

Anecdotally I think you’re correct @Neverdancedjustamum. Perhaps the teaching goes up a gear or two in those final two years at WL? I guess it would have to or else it would be very frustrating for those international students who are used to so much more (plus the excitement of performing in major competitions) ! 

[Neverdancedjustamum]

12 minutes ago, Kerfuffle said:

Anecdotally I think you’re correct @Neverdancedjustamum. Perhaps the teaching goes up a gear or two in those final two years at WL? I guess it would have to or else it would be very frustrating for those international students who are used to so much more (plus the excitement of performing in major competitions) ! 

I did wonder this myself.  Oddly enough, I’m pretty sure I saw some internationals who seem to have visited WL not so long ago, outside usual audition dates. Perhaps they were international scholars as it looked like they stayed a few days. But then I saw some of the same ones in different schools the week after, sure I saw one at APG and one at Cranko. It must be quite disconcerting for the actual students of the school having new people in their classes come and go. 

[Ruby Foo]

I'm sure that no one is in any doubt that from a dancing perspective, being assessed out ( or not being successful in continuing in the training) can lead to a renewed energy and momentum and in turn, lead to greater happiness, fulfilment and success, possibly more than if the student had remained in the same environment. Many students who arrived at my vocational school, having been assessed out of another school, went on to have very successful dance careers, many in renowned classical ballet and contemporary companies.

But let's not forget that having to change schools after 3 years, no matter how prepared you may be (how mentally prepared can you be at such a young age?) can be anything from a small trauma to something much more traumatic. You are having to deal with great disappointment, a period of low self esteem, uncertainty about where you will go next, will you be accepted, and what will the future look like? While saying goodbye to friends who have almost become brothers and sisters, knowing you have to start friendships all over again somewhere else. There will also be students who feel they have let everyone down, even if they don't verbalise it. I just felt I should mention this, as there is much more to it than statistics and success and having a great deal of support will surely help students with a smooth transition.

[Balletmummy18]

As a parent of dd who was told at the and of yr 9 that the AD felt she had no future in classical ballet and would not go on to upper school at the end of year 11 but she was not being assessed out .( it transpired the rest of the assessment panel strongly disagreed with  this opinion) We were given 1 week to decide whether she wanted to stay on as she was told she would be given little / no performance opportunities- I just wanted to say that the assessing out process/ end of programme  is not as straightforward as it appears .There was no indication 3 years ago that it was a new start for a new phase in 10/11 and the AD was true to his word regarding lack of opportunities and upper school  . It was hugely traumatic for my dd at 13 to hear his opinion and confusing for her to be allowed to stay on after the assessment…she felt like a total failure  especially given the naturally competitive environment of the school. 

I hope this is a unique experience - no other person in her year had this meeting and I desperately hope that the new programme will be transparent and accountable to stop this from ever happening again. 

(incidentally she chose to stay and gained a place at another prestigious upper school at the end of year 11)

[Raquelle]

Just wanted to chip in....firstly any child who gets given a place in a world class ballet school for year 7 should feel proud. This in itself is such an accomplishment.

 

I think regardless of what you call it, and whether you know it might happen, I can imagine being told you will not continue past year 9 must be hugely upsetting and unsettling for parents and children. Especially when the children have often left their families and friends to live away; to start again must be frightening.

 

My DDs ballet school (not sure if I'm allowed to mention by name!) gives a place till gcse and this really does remove the pressure and anxiety and gives the children a sense of security..they can leave on their terms, should they wish...the downside is that some may not be suitable for a classical career in ballet once they get to 16, but everyone re applies for upper school anyway. 

 

Balletummy18 so glad your DD found another school and to the OP it is good to hear at a lot of these talented children do find other schools and flourish elsewhere x 

[Tiaramum]

9 hours ago, Neverdancedjustamum said:

I’m sure I might be mistaken because I don’t have first hand experience but I assume at Y10 some of the main contenders would be from overseas. They’re at that age where their families would probably be more comfortable with their DCs boarding far from home and I’ve seen some exquisitely trained international dancers(who often come over for SIs here). I look at competitors at say YAGP, Prix de Lausanne, AGP, etc similar age to my DD but seem on a different level all together. If I were to hazard a guess, the ratio of UK vs international DCs inviter to a certain school’s finals for entry to Years 9/10/11 would be heavily skewed towards internationals. Correct me if I’m wrong, as I said, this is simply a guess. Perhaps the UK is slowly going that way and I’m noticing that every year, DCs who seem very extensively and intensively trained get those highly coveted Y7 places. 

Exactly this. The year 10 intake is much more internationally based. 

[Jewel]

It seems reasonable for a UK based forum to refer to the educational system in England & Wales when talking about a school located in England. 

[Tiaramum]

2 hours ago, Balletmummy18 said:

As a parent of dd who was told at the and of yr 9 that the AD felt she had no future in classical ballet and would not go on to upper school at the end of year 11 but she was not being assessed out .( it transpired the rest of the assessment panel strongly disagreed with  this opinion) We were given 1 week to decide whether she wanted to stay on as she was told she would be given little / no performance opportunities- I just wanted to say that the assessing out process/ end of programme  is not as straightforward as it appears .There was no indication 3 years ago that it was a new start for a new phase in 10/11 and the AD was true to his word regarding lack of opportunities and upper school  . It was hugely traumatic for my dd at 13 to hear his opinion and confusing for her to be allowed to stay on after the assessment…she felt like a total failure  especially given the naturally competitive environment of the school. 

I hope this is a unique experience - no other person in her year had this meeting and I desperately hope that the new programme will be transparent and accountable to stop this from ever happening again. 

(incidentally she chose to stay and gained a place at another prestigious upper school at the end of year 11)

 

It remains traumatic, stressful and often comes as a shock despite the promises. The differing opinions between staff remains a confusion for the dancer. We can all sit here and debate the ins and outs of children being let go at the end of year 9. As a parent I knew what I was signing up for but it doesn't take away the hurt, the disappointment, the anger, the shock. 

 

Yes the kids do see it as been assessed out, but thats where we as adults have to keep them going. We have to slowly change the way of thinking. There is two programmes of dance education at RBS Lower school. The general consensus of this wont change unless we all help correct these views. These young dancers have completed the 3 year programme successfully and will graduate from that programme. 

 

 

[stardust1]

21 minutes ago, Tiaramum said:

Exactly this. The year 10 intake is much more internationally based. 

I know first hand that the girls at finals this year were predominantly from overseas.  I also know that it was the same for Yr9 - 12 girls invited and only 2 from UK.  Presumably this was also influenced by the move to the next stage as I’d hope RBS wouldn’t accept anyone into Yr9 without being a certain as they could be be about them progressing.

[Kerfuffle]

Well done to your DD for continuing and proving them wrong @Balletmummy18! What did they mean by little performance opportunities - were they going to bar her from the school show? To me it seems brutal to uproot these children based on their ideas on who can make it as a classical ballet dancer, some of which  must be subjective. It’s a shame that we don’t have a training model where all children can access  centres of excellence in classical ballet (I know there is one in the North but as far as I know the CAT scheme around here is contemporary). Being able to train with other serious and talented dance students as well as have the experience of going to school with other children I think is the best combination. It seems to be how the pre-pro schools work in USA, even SAB in New York. Instead we either have to choose boarding schools at 11 or try and get into associates which don’t really offer enough hours with RAD schools often filling in the gaps. The individual local training often only has one or two pupils at a high level so it’s a lonely experience for them. My DD is extremely lucky to be able to train with wonderful teachers outside this system and still have a great normal secondary school with non dancing friends. I know this is rare though.  Hats off to to all those brave vocational children who pick themselves up and manage to start all over again! 

[meadowblythe]

In my experience, both with Dancing DS and Musical DD, not being chosen for performances is the biggest sign that for whatever reason you are not considered a suitable advertisement for that institution.  And yes, literally with DS two of them not being chosen for the majority of performances (and standing at the back when they were) and watching others go off for external engagements.

 

Ironically musical DD, a brass player, has encountered a huge amount of prejudice because there are so few female brassers about.  You just can't win.

 

It's not pleasant and sometimes things change, sometimes they don't.  One of the ironies for DS when in year 10/11 he was one of the more natural ballet students was that because that school insisted on a more equitable distribution of roles he still didn't get to do the the performances some staff wanted him to undertake.

 

However, I emphasise that being assessed out was, in the long run, the right thing for his mental and and physical health and didn't stop him making a career as a professional ballet dancer. 

[AllAboutTheJourney]

1 hour ago, Jewel said:

It seems reasonable for a UK based forum to refer to the educational system in England & Wales when talking about a school located in England. 

Exactly though - it's a UK based forum and the intake at all the vocational ballet schools in this country is from the whole of the UK, not just England (without even getting into the international sphere). There are different challenges at all stages of the vocational journey and how it matches up to your academic system depending on where in the UK you live - hence the importance of a plan B. 

 

1 hour ago, Tiaramum said:

 

Yes the kids do see it as been assessed out, but thats where we as adults have to keep them going. We have to slowly change the way of thinking. There is two programmes of dance education at RBS Lower school. The general consensus of this wont change unless we all help correct these views. These young dancers have completed the 3 year programme successfully and will graduate from that programme. 

 

Absolutely this - surely it's up to us, as the adults, to help change the perception. 

[Balletmummy18]

25 minutes ago, Kerfuffle said:

Well done to your DD for continuing and proving them wrong @Balletmummy18! What did they mean by little performance opportunities - were they going to bar her from the school show? To me it seems brutal to uproot these children based on their ideas on who can make it as a classical ballet dancer, some of which  must be subjective. It’s a shame that we don’t have a training model where all children can access  centres of excellence in classical ballet (I know there is one in the North but as far as I know the CAT scheme around here is contemporary). Being able to train with other serious and talented dance students as well as have the experience of going to school with other children I think is the best combination. It seems to be how the pre-pro schools work in USA, even SAB in New York. Instead we either have to choose boarding schools at 11 or try and get into associates which don’t really offer enough hours with RAD schools often filling in the gaps. The individual local training often only has one or two pupils at a high level so it’s a lonely experience for them. My DD is extremely lucky to be able to train with wonderful teachers outside this system and still have a great normal secondary school with non dancing friends. I know this is rare though.  Hats off to to all those brave vocational children who pick themselves up and manage to start all over again! 

Thankyou -the AD meant by 'no performance opportunities' that she was put at the back by the wings or not chosen  for some dances . It caused some problems as she would by chosen by the teacher or choreographer to perform a solo /be at the front and then would be removed when the AD watched.  I naively thought as a Year 7 parent , that if she was was disliked by the AD Or not the right fit for the image of the school , she would  simply be asked to leave at the end of year 9 . The trauma from her  experience, being 'the football 'in a staff politics during year 10 and 11 has had long term effect on her self esteem, confidence  and mental health -  I would not wish that on any child or family. 

[Kerfuffle]

@Balletmummy18This sounds the worst of both worlds! Your poor DD, how heartbreaking to have all these opportunities removed from her, and such a shame that the AD didn’t change his mind towards her when the choreographer appreciated her. Surely that was enough of an affirmation to her talent? I can see that it would damage a child for a long time. Also @meadowblytheyour children experiencing being left out for not fitting in with the school’s image. I guess there are always going to be favourites but you would expect that there would be a minimal amount of participation in school shows. It’s sad that your brass playing daughter wasn’t celebrated for being a great female role model in her orchestra.