Assessed out - success stories please

[Coffeemum]

45 minutes ago, NotadanceMa said:

I do know who she is ❤️
I’m so pleased to hear she is happy, supported and out. X

❤❤❤

[Kerfuffle]

So interesting to hear of DCs discovering or choosing a different route to vocational . If only it was possible for everyone to access top training regionally (relatively close by) so that kids could have the best of both worlds. Do many Europeans train this way? I know Germany has a lot ballet companies so do their dancers train locally too? How about in USA? Would love to hear if anyone knows the answers 🙂

[NotadanceMa]

@Medorai did not answer your OP question when I replied.

For me the positive in being assessed out, is that your child is no longer in a system that doesn’t accept and value them where they are at that moment in their young dance training life. 

 

[NotadanceMa]

2 minutes ago, Kerfuffle said:

So interesting to hear of DCs discovering or choosing a different route to vocational . If only it was possible for everyone to access top training regionally (relatively close by) so that kids could have the best of both worlds. Do many Europeans train this way? I know Germany has a lot ballet companies so do their dancers train locally too? How about in USA? Would love to hear if anyone knows the answers 🙂

I know Australian children are for the most part home educated and ballet training is non-residential alongside until Upper Schools, entry into PdL and prestigious comps that then get the child seen by AD’s.

[Kerfuffle]

Maybe one to one is another way you might benefit from staying at home during the lower school years - more individual attention. Of course that depends if your teacher is invested in you as an individual. 

[NotadanceMa]

1 minute ago, Kerfuffle said:

Maybe one to one is another way you might benefit from staying at home during the lower school years - more individual attention. Of course that depends if your teacher is invested in you as an individual. 

I think it’s difficult for people like our family who qualify for funding.
Vocational training funded places offer an attractive shiny all inclusive package for families on low incomes. The offers are hard to resist, as good quality local ballet training is hard to find as you progress up through 14-16. 

There are very few world renowned professionals nowadays that I have read about that come from significantly disadvantaged backgrounds.

[Kerfuffle]

3 minutes ago, NotadanceMa said:

I think it’s difficult for people like our family who qualify for funding.
Vocational training funded places offer an attractive shiny all inclusive package for families on low incomes. The offers are hard to resist, as good quality local ballet training is hard to find as you progress up through 14-16. 

There are very few world renowned professionals nowadays that I have read about that come from significantly disadvantaged backgrounds.

That is very understandable and a good reason why it would be preferable/tempting  on a low income, and it is sad what you say about the lack of children from disadvantaged backgrounds. I guess that even getting to a WL final would involve having a fair amount of ballet training in the first place. 

It’s awful how expensive training is especially once you include the cost of getting to associates in London/Birmingham plus all the summer schools and any individual lessons. Not to mention pointe shoes for girls! I guess a lot of parents with middle incomes can end up contributing much of their family income on boarding fees. Unless you get a sizeable discount it is private education after all! 

[DD Driver]

9 hours ago, NotadanceMa said:

I know Australian children are for the most part home educated and ballet training is non-residential alongside until Upper Schools, entry into PdL and prestigious comps that then get the child seen by AD’s.

 

My DD, in Australia, is attending a full-time ballet school & does Distance Education in the afternoons/weekend.  As do many of her friends, usually based in large cities.  She would of course be very tempted if offered a place at a vocational residential school.  However she doesn't go out of her way to audition.  She believes her training & performance opportunities are superior where she is right now.  She likes living at home.

 

I note some new pathways emerging. Some vocational schools, associated with companies are offering open auditions for a 'pre-pro' year. ENBS Pre-Pro.  Queensland Ballet Academy has a Pre-Pro year etc... 

 

Edited March 27, 2022 by DD Driver

[AllAboutTheJourney]

Thank you for the honest and frank responses on this thread - it's a very interesting read especially for those of us with children in y6 I imagine. 

 

At the moment I feel utterly confused about what the 'best' pathway is - and I think it will be different for everyone. Funding is definitely an issue, I can absolutely understand why vocational school feels like a great option if there is considerable MDS funding available and it covers the whole package of training.

 

If you're in a situation where you still have to pay a very hefty chunk of the fees then it's a considerable financial investment which has to be borne in mind - I confess to having real doubts about it purely on a financial basis. For what we would have to pay, could that money be used in a more direct, individual way - private coaching, associates, 'normal' dance school fees and - in time - perhaps higher level competition fees. 

 

But then - is that enough to 'keep up' with the children who go to vocational school... 

 

Sorry - probably going off track a bit. I really do hope that the teenagers who have moved on or are about to move on to other things are happy (or will be, in time). 

 

[Tiaramum]

20 hours ago, Coffeemum said:

Just to add, my dd wasn't at all unhappy at school, she had fabulous friends and was generally having a good time. But the result was an unexpected, unpleasant shock- not seeming to relate to her reports or teacher comments, so that's something to be aware of. Her very articulate questions weren't satisfactorily answered or explained in her zoom meeting so she feels a sense of injustice which a 13 year old shouldn't have to experience. If she had known there were serious issues, she would have worked on them, or worked differently. It's been explained clearly by her new/old teachers though, which makes me wonder about the communication of teachers at the school... Whiteduvet, you're right that vocational school isn't necessary if you live near other good training programmes, as we are lucky enough to. In fact, if I was armed with the knowledge I now have, I would have chosen this over vocational school. I feel for people wo don't have this on the doorstep though. My lasting impression is that the Schools aren't invested in each and every child in the right way. And I have experience of two, top vocational schools. We'll be leaving them well alone until at least year 12 now. 

I'm so pleased to hear she is doing well CoffeeMum. My own dd too feels a sense of injustice and as though she is now just a number in a political game of who can bring the money in. 

 

To those taking up a year 7 place at this particular school - enjoy the ride, enjoy the moments, just be very aware that no matter how amazing the reports are along the way, you will NOT be able to predict the results of the year 9 auditions. The chances are your child will not get a year 10 place and that needs to be part of your decision making. 

[NotadanceMa]

27 minutes ago, Waverley said:

Thank you for the honest and frank responses on this thread - it's a very interesting read especially for those of us with children in y6 I imagine. 

 

At the moment I feel utterly confused about what the 'best' pathway is - and I think it will be different for everyone. Funding is definitely an issue, I can absolutely understand why vocational school feels like a great option if there is considerable MDS funding available and it covers the whole package of training.

 

If you're in a situation where you still have to pay a very hefty chunk of the fees then it's a considerable financial investment which has to be borne in mind - I confess to having real doubts about it purely on a financial basis. For what we would have to pay, could that money be used in a more direct, individual way - private coaching, associates, 'normal' dance school fees and - in time - perhaps higher level competition fees. 

 

But then - is that enough to 'keep up' with the children who go to vocational school... 

 

Sorry - probably going off track a bit. I really do hope that the teenagers who have moved on or are about to move on to other things are happy (or will be, in time). 

 

In short if I could have afforded to keep up with the driving (so much driving) and amazing training opportunities available outside vocational I would have done. 
we turned down vocational offers each year until Y9 and even then it was an immensely difficult decision. I did not want my child in vocational before 16, but we knew ballet was over if we turned down this offer. 

workshops, training opportunities, performing, 1:1 coaching etc associates, brilliant local lessons is ABSOLUTELY enough to wait until US auditions if you have the time and can afford it. Also no assessing out involved. 😊

We also Home Educated, but my child got to the stage where they wanted to return to a school setting as well, this also influenced the decision for vocational.

If my child leaves, that’s dancing in any serious form done for them as we cannot afford what is needed between now and US auditions.

Sometimes talent and potential are just not enough unfortunately.

 

Sorry to OP this is completely off topic.

 

 

[Whiteduvet]

@Waverleyit’s such a hard choice. But looking at the success rates for the current year 9’s which have been quoted here: Where have the new year 10’s trained? Is the vocational training in years 7-9 fit for purpose and worth the risk if so many are replaced by those who have trained elsewhere? Of course it works for some, but the odds are very much against you (at every school). 

 

I appreciate however that these may be theoretical questions based on money and availability to top teaching at home. I wish everyone all the best in their individual decisions. 

[Kerfuffle]

I guess the other option is to only apply at y10 if  ( and it’s a big if) you can afford and access top teaching at home. It’s possible to be more advanced than vocational here depending on your school - British training is rather slow as is often expressed with frustration by parents) . Your child might not have the exact technique (and style/manner)  that the vocational school has taught but that would be the same for those coming from abroad too. Good luck to everyone making this decision. 

[Tiaramum]

54 minutes ago, Whiteduvet said:

@Waverleyit’s such a hard choice. But looking at the success rates for the current year 9’s which have been quoted here: Where have the new year 10’s trained? Is the vocational training in years 7-9 fit for purpose and worth the risk if so many are replaced by those who have trained elsewhere? Of course it works for some, but the odds are very much against you (at every school). 

 

I appreciate however that these may be theoretical questions based on money and availability to top teaching at home. I wish everyone all the best in their individual decisions. 

Very fitting questions. The new Year 10's look like many of them are from outside the UK. In that case why isn't our training good enough. Sadly we will never get that answer

[Ruby Foo]

Applying for yrs 9 and 10 in my opinion is the best option both from a dance and mental health perspective.

From a dance perspective, the new candidates are full of vitality, eager to begin their new life, full of determination. In contrast to the students who began in yr 7 who can be a little worn down and jaded by that time. From a mental health perspective, it's relatively obvious. The students starting in yr 7 will have had 3 years of the dreaded assessments hanging over them... it is a niggling worry that youngsters don't need if they are to produce their best without fear. They have also had to deal with leaving home very young age and all that entails, which is huge. On top of that, they will be dealing  with  favouritism and other confidence busters.

How to get to a year 10 standard without the whole family dying of stress, exhaustion and bankruptcy? I know for some people what I'm about to suggest would be completely out of the question financially, and for that, I apologise. I can not solve the bankruptcy problem.
Firstly, you need an extremely good and patient dance teacher who can offer 1st class training which builds in hours and standard. The teacher should be well versed in the very high standards needed for a yr 10 entry. This teacher may be able to offer some free or discounted tuition once the lessons become a daily event and they are hopefully onboard. Hopefully the school might offer Pilates or other strength training or, at least be helpful and supportive in finding contacts.

The school needs to be close enough to enable the student to incorporate travel and the time to deal with the increasing academic work load, otherwise the student will be exhausted.

Second, a private lesson teacher ( once a week) who will give a different perspective. Maybe try to locate a RAD or ISTD examiner who offers private lessons or an RBS associate teacher. Some people will prefer an ex classical company member for lessons but caution  - not all great dancers are great teachers! Whoever you choose, the student should feel it's really pushing them (in a good way) towards their gaol. These lessons will be costly, especially around London and you may have to travel a fair distance to find someone special.
Associates will help to measure up the standards and competition and are also a valuable weekly lesson but I much prefer a long one to one lesson with an excellent teacher if having to choose.

Summer / spring intensives will be very important to keep the international cohort in mind. Trying to get some intensives overseas would be a bonus because internationals are very, very strong en pointe. There are some cheaper ones around. My Dd did a RAD intensive in Italy and it was a very high standard but very reasonably priced. It also opens your eyes and mind to different teaching styles and keeps you on your toes. It's easy to get locked in with the same teacher, which is very important as a base in the early years, but different teachers pick up on different areas needing attention.  Being creative  with the training, changing it around and up and applying for scholarships and a reduction in fees wherever possible is the way to go. There are intensives all over France, Italy and Sicily, and Scotland  which are excellent and much cheaper than going for the big flashy ones. We stayed in a campsite and combined it with a bit of a holiday.

These are just suggestions. Everyone is different and will have different ideas of how this can be achieved. Although, it's incredibly difficult, it's not impossible. 3/4 new British students in RBS upper school were home trained in UK.

 

 

[Ruby Foo]

Sorry, meant to say 3-4 

Not three quarters, which would be nice but definitely not true!

[Kerfuffle]

Thank you Valentina, this is all great  advice. I agree that summer  schools and associates are a good way of judging where you are in comparison to international students and vocational.

[AllAboutTheJourney]

Thank you @valentina - appreciate you taking the time to post that - very helpful, practical advice. 

[Birdy]

There are very few residential ballet schools in the US, and the ones that do exist generally start at what is high school age here, meaning 14+ year-olds. Most students live at home with their families and train locally. If there aren’t any good local training options some families move to find it. We are lucky to have good training options, but DD started doing academic school online at 14 because her dance classes started around noon. An issue I do find with ballet schools in the US, is that they tend to follow the same pattern as academic schools, meaning there are long summers with no classes. We don’t have any government funding for ballet, so it is up to the individual schools to find funding for any scholarships. The decisions and choices students make at 16 in the UK don’t really start here until students are 18/19. In my experience ballet schools in the US don’t do enough to prepare kids for the next phase in the ballet journey. They are left to navigate the options of university dance programs, trainee programs (which mean different things at different schools), junior companies, etc. largely on their own. My DD is graduating from US high school a year early and leaving for a program in Europe this fall for this very reason.

Edited March 28, 2022 by Birdy
Typo

[DD Driver]

9 minutes ago, Birdy said:

The decisions and choices students make at 16 in the UK don’t really start here until students are 18/19. In my experience ballet schools in the US don’t do enough to prepare kids for the next phase in the ballet journey. They are left to navigate the options of university dance programs, trainee programs (which mean different things at different schools), junior companies, etc. largely on their own. My DD is graduating from US high school a year early and leaving for a program in Europe this fall for this very reason.

 

Thanks for this perspective, Birdy.  In terms of helping students navigate professional options, the top vocational schools can certainly leverage their reputations to help students.  I think they are getting a lot better at this.  

 

The benefits of vocational schools, linked to companies, are very clear!

 

I would say that, in Australia, successful fulltime private ballet schools do a lot to help their students with: CV's, photos, videos & using contacts to get auditions for intl. schools & companies.  They also invite intl. AD's to visit their schools e.g. to do Holiday Intensives.  Their survival depends upon broad student success - not getting 2 students into an associated company.  They also aim to maximise performance opportunities through exams, concerts & comps.  This certainly toughens you up!

[Ballet2101]

4 hours ago, Birdy said:

There are very few residential ballet schools in the US, and the ones that do exist generally start at what is high school age here, meaning 14+ year-olds.

And the vocational school concept doesn't exist...unless you count Walnut Hill/Boston Ballet as a Vocational School.  At 70K a year, you can call it anything you want to I guess.  

We do envy the vocational programs in the U.K.  The ability to train for Ballet AND get a quality education is completely missing in America.  As Birdy mentioned, America has tons of Pre-pro programs, and a handful of residential programs.  Almost all of them require cobbling together an education alternative that allows your child to have future options beyond ballet.  Managing virtual school for a young dancer is a challenge and the lack of balance and burnout is a real issue.

[Ballet2101]

From our friends in the 3 letter pre-pro schools, the assessing out issue is real on this side of the pond as well.  There is tremendous pressure to have the best students in our version of the upper schools.  The "lower" programs are getting more and more scrutiny around why the majority of the kids aren't making it through to the upper programs.  It sounds very similar to the stories mentioned on this thread.  

We're concerned that the "answer" for most programs is modify the recruiting process to bring in outside kids earlier in the cycle, so they can claim to have "trained" them for a few years and increase the in-house graduation rates into the upper programs.  

We have no proof this exists, but as a theory that seems quite plausible.

[Birdy]

I always say that schools make their money on the younger students but make their reputation on the older students. At my DDs big name US school, the younger kids pay more tuition per hour of training that the older kids, so filling those lower levels with kids really helps the bottom line. When the kids get older the schools need to really get selective or they won’t be able to have a high success rate when it comes to students getting contracts. And that reputation for turning out professional dancers keeps bringing in the young kids. 
 

I do think the excessive assessing out can have an effect on the perception of the quality of training sometimes. Does Royal Ballet really have the absolute best training, or does the fact that they assess out even after two years of upper school skew things? Are their graduates all getting contracts because their training is the best, or because their reputation for placement allows them to recruit only the best and then at the last year cut those they aren’t convinced will succeed?

 

 

[Harwel]

2 hours ago, Birdy said:
 

I do think the excessive assessing out can have an effect on the perception of the quality of training sometimes. Does Royal Ballet really have the absolute best training, or does the fact that they assess out even after two years of upper school skew things? Are their graduates all getting contracts because their training is the best, or because their reputation for placement allows them to recruit only the best and then at the last year cut those they aren’t convinced will succeed?

 

 

spot on!  

[DVDfan]

Sadly, shedding kids the school thinks will bring down their exam results is far from unknown. Some  years ago I knew of one lass, intelligent but with some learning difficulty, who was dumped from her (independent) school 5 weeks before A levels.  It was difficult not to think that they'd left it that long so that they could keep her fees.

It follows, alas, that one should be quite inquisitive about the methods a school (college, university) uses to reach the top of the league tables as there can be more to it than good teaching following a good admission process.

[Kerfuffle]

Very interesting to hear the American and Australian experiences. I was shocked to hear it cost my friend’s 12 year old daughter $10k a year   to train in NYC in a pre-pro programme and those summer intensives must cost a fortune (and be stressful to keep having to audition for them knowing that if you don’t get in you’ll lose your fitness) ! The upside though to keeping academics separate is that a child can have success there and build up confidence in other areas. The downside is fitting it all in! I think also that our system really is so hinged around having the right body very early on (10/11). Some children improve physically and others don’t sadly but I think schools tend to be extremely cautious which means that the children they choose are of a very similar build/height/weight. At least in the USA the serious programmes are once you reach 14 and have been through puberty. It’s bad that the younger kids end up subsidising the older ones. I guess (possibly) that our system of lots of JAs/summer school places etc helps subsidise the vocational schools too though!

[Coffeemum]

9 hours ago, Harwel said:

spot on!  

Yes, absolutely 

[Birdy]

Yes, we pay over $7000/year for non-residential ballet-only training, but the year runs from early September through late May. The cost of summer training to fill in the three month summer gap can easily exceed the year-round tuition. I don’t know if there is a way around the younger kids essentially subsidizing the older ones. If our school charged the same rate per hour to kids dancing six days a week as they do to 4 year-olds dancing one hour a week, no one could afford it.

 

I do think assessing out at a young age is rather harsh, as so much can change as kids go through puberty, both mentally and physically. At 16 my views change a bit, though. Kids who don’t live near schools that do a great job of “finishing” dancers or without the connections to help them get jobs, need to move to schools who can help them. If the best schools stick only to kids who were able to train with them from a young age, where do the kids without that proximity end up? (Maybe this makes more sense in the context of the United States—a huge, sprawling country). I do think we need to keep our eyes wide open about exactly what we are paying for, though.

 

Someone on the US message board said, “Go where you are wanted.” I think that’s a simple, but wonderful, piece of advice. One prestigious school didn’t invite my DD for a second round audition, while another admitted her straight in after the first round, allowing her to skip the second altogether. I know in ballet all paths don’t lead to Rome, but many of them do. A rejection, or being assessed out at one place, doesn’t mean the end of the road.

[Kerfuffle]

@birdy that is a lot of money if the summer intensive is the same as the year round programme! What age is an American dancer considered ready for a career? Does your system lead to many being disappointed because they aren’t able to find jobs? I know that happens here in Europe but perhaps there are fewer roads to Rome in the first place! I get the impression that individuality is more celebrated in the USA (correct me if I’m wrong) and that dancers are more empowered as a result. Definitely going where you are wanted is great advice 😊. I have watched the SAB series  on Disney Plus and have been very impressed at the positive way the teachers speak to their pupils, they come across as very nurturing. 

[Birdy]

Yes, a five week summer program is usually around $3000, then if you need housing it’s another $3000. And most kids still have 7-8 other weeks with no dance scheduled, so things can get crazy really quickly. We usually try doing a shorter program and pick up other local, drop-in classes for the rest of the summer.

 

I definitely feel that the system in the US leads to a lot of disappointment. Perhaps because there are so many training options, there is always someone willing to take a student, so I think many dancers are not aware of just how slim the odds of having a ballet career really are. While the bigger, well-known companies usually have junior or second companies that pay a small wage, there are so many other levels of post-graduate training where students and families are spending a lot of money with the odds very much stacked against the dancer. As I said before, I don’t think schools up to the age of 18/19 really prepare dancers for a career, even if they provide great training otherwise. So after graduating from high school, students who choose not to do the university route are scrambling. The very lucky few attended a school affiliated with a company and hope to be admitted to the second company/junior company, but those junior company spots are scarce and often partially filled with international students. Many of the bigger US schools also have post-graduate trainee programs, which I feel are similar to upper school training in the UK and some European company-related schools, in that they work to transition dancers from students into professionals. So at 19-21 parents can still be paying tuition and housing for students chasing the dream. (SAB is different in that they have residential placement for students, so they can bring them in earlier and then the lucky few make it in to the company). Many of the smaller, regional ballet companies have small budgets and the dancers don’t belong to a union, so they use these “trainees” in their productions. Ill intentions or not, I think it is very easy to take advantage of dancers pursuing their dreams. 

 

I’m not sure where to draw the line between nurturing the dream and being realistic about a dancer’s chances of success. In the United States there seems to be a lot of opportunities to keep shelling out money until a student or their parents face the reality and move on.

 

I don’t think I have enough experience of the different systems to speak on the differences in embracing individuality. My daughter did say, after attending Royal Ballet summer school, that they did seem to want to mold the year-round students in a very specific, similar way. But then at the same time the dancer they all thought was the most special was the one who was the most unique.

[Kerfuffle]

I guess that in USA sports are often developed within university. Although you can get onto a degree here that has to be at the tender age of 16, which means graduating 2 years before other students. I don’t think students attending regular universities would expect to become professional ballerinas here, you have to be young. That can have its own downsides such as having to live independent at a very young age. It sounds like the USA system drags out the agony of eventual disappointment for much longer! I feel at least that if my daughter doesn’t get into an upper school she can finish her schooling and change tracks easily. 
 

When your daughter mentioned the one special dancer at the Royal summer school  was that the opinion of the staff or her and the other pupils? Was she British or international? The white lodge girls I have come across do have a very particular look, I think this is typical of European schools and in Russia. They different nationalities have their own styles though so not necessarily alike.

 

We are lucky having shorter holidays here (6 weeks) so only need a bit of dancing to fill in. Nice to have a break too! 

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[Babyballerina]

On 23/03/2022 at 21:35, The red shoes said:

Indeed this is true however they have had 3 years of the next training in the world ( in my opinion) and that is better than none at all or 5 years of mediocre.

RBS have said ALL year 9 students must apply to other vocational schools and indeed normal

secondary schools. They help them with their videos , etc and are very supportive . 

My DD is in the first year group that have gone through this incredibly harsh and brutal process.  They did do videos and photographs that where quite frankly awful.  This year they have assessed out 9 of the year group, 7 of which are girls!  All have been replaced with international students.  This leaves 2 British girls in the year group.  You say they are supportive, I disagree!! 
This process has resulted in one of the children attempting suicide!!! Not one of the ones who are going from the year group were told that there was a problem and they might not get to the next stage, in fact they were told the opposite at artistic meetings. 

On a positive note my DD is going to another vocational school that will nurture her.  In their words at audition ‘she is a huge talent’