Assessed out - success stories please

[meadowblythe]

the exact expression used on one occasion, when she and the female horn player were meant to repeat stuff again and again (on their own for no reason) was "I hope there are not going to be girl tears."   And yes, she did take it up with the head of department.

[Kerfuffle]

2 hours ago, meadowblythe said:

the exact expression used on one occasion, when she and the female horn player were meant to repeat stuff again and again (on their own for no reason) was "I hope there are not going to be girl tears."   And yes, she did take it up with the head of department.

That is appalling! Good for her making a complaint. 

[The red shoes]

21 hours ago, valentina said:

I'm sure that no one is in any doubt that from a dancing perspective, being assessed out ( or not being successful in continuing in the training) can lead to a renewed energy and momentum and in turn, lead to greater happiness, fulfilment and success, possibly more than if the student had remained in the same environment. Many students who arrived at my vocational school, having been assessed out of another school, went on to have very successful dance careers, many in renowned classical ballet and contemporary companies.

But let's not forget that having to change schools after 3 years, no matter how prepared you may be (how mentally prepared can you be at such a young age?) can be anything from a small trauma to something much more traumatic. You are having to deal with great disappointment, a period of low self esteem, uncertainty about where you will go next, will you be accepted, and what will the future look like? While saying goodbye to friends who have almost become brothers and sisters, knowing you have to start friendships all over again somewhere else. There will also be students who feel they have let everyone down, even if they don't verbalise it. I just felt I should mention this, as there is much more to it than statistics and success and having a great deal of support will surely help students with a smooth transition.

Indeed this is true however they have had 3 years of the next training in the world ( in my opinion) and that is better than none at all or 5 years of mediocre.

RBS have said ALL year 9 students must apply to other vocational schools and indeed normal

secondary schools. They help them with their videos , etc and are very supportive . 

[Kerfuffle]

Has this actually happened to a year group yet? How many of them have got through? It is still quite  brutal and seems like  a convenient escuse for replacing them with international talent. It’s as though they are normalising children having to leave. 

[The red shoes]

22 minutes ago, Kerfuffle said:

Has this actually happened to a year group yet? How many of them have got through? It is still quite  brutal and seems like  a convenient escuse for replacing them with international talent. It’s as though they are normalising children having to leave. 

As opposed to giving false hope? They may just not be what they are looking for anymore , doesn’t mean to say they won’t go on elsewhere to be successful. 
Most of this year’s year 9 are going through to 10&11 which is fantastic . Some leave because ballet is not for them anymore... yes that does happen! 
Yes it’s not nice but lots of warning is given right at the start of year 7. You go in with your eyes wide open to the fact and your children are also prepared from the start. 

[The red shoes]

25 minutes ago, Kerfuffle said:

Has this actually happened to a year group yet? How many of them have got through? It is still quite  brutal and seems like  a convenient escuse for replacing them with international talent. It’s as though they are normalising children having to leave. 

Sorry when I said all year 9’s must apply to other schools, that’s wasn’t because all were assessed out that was for their plan B, C and so on which is actually vital and very important the ballet world 

[Ruby Foo]

48 minutes ago, The red shoes said:

Indeed this is true however they have had 3 years of the next training in the world ( in my opinion) and that is better than none at all or 5 years of mediocre.

RBS have said ALL year 9 students must apply to other vocational schools and indeed normal

secondary schools. They help them with their videos , etc and are very supportive . 

Realistically RBS don't have any other choice  but to help with audition videos seeing as the students are at boarding school and wouldn't be able to do them anywhere else. Although that is helpful, this is not really what I mean when I use the word support. Support is asking the students how they're managing to continue in their day to day life ( ballet, academics, weekends, knowing that they will be leaving while many of their friends will be moving further up the school. Support for the end of the year when their friends are choosing who to share rooms with the following term. Someone to talk to when they are worried about uprooting once again and having to start all over in a new, unfamiliar territory. The first week back, standing on the barre in a school you love, knowing you can't stay. That's tough for some kids.... because that's what they are, just kids. The ballet training may or may not be great, but it won't change the natural feelings that arise in youngsters when there's uncertainty and worry. A cold email helping to find another school doesn't help when you need someone to talk to and listen. I disagree with all the posters, who say they have gone in with their eyes wide open. The adults may have their eyes wide open ( you haven't experienced it till it happens) but no child of ten, which is what many are when they audition, can tell you how they're going to feel 3 years down the line because they're still developing as people throughout the process. Plan b c and x is great and sensible but it doesn't take away the pain of breaking the bonds kids make when a boarding school becomes their 2nd home, and their friends and houseparents become their 2nd family.

[The red shoes]

4 minutes ago, valentina said:

Realistically RBS don't have any other choice  but to help with audition videos seeing as the students are at boarding school and wouldn't be able to do them anywhere else. Although that is helpful, this is not really what I mean when I use the word support. Support is asking the students how they're managing to continue in their day to day life ( ballet, academics, weekends, knowing that they will be leaving while many of their friends will be moving further up the school. Support for the end of the year when their friends are choosing who to share rooms with the following term. Someone to talk to when they are worried about uprooting once again and having to start all over in a new, unfamiliar territory. The first week back, standing on the barre in a school you love, knowing you can't stay. That's tough for some kids.... because that's what they are, just kids. The ballet training may or may not be great, but it won't change the natural feelings that arise in youngsters when there's uncertainty and worry. A cold email helping to find another school doesn't help when you need someone to talk to and listen. I disagree with all the posters, who say they have gone in with their eyes wide open. The adults may have their eyes wide open ( you haven't experienced it till it happens) but no child of ten, which is what many are when they audition, can tell you how they're going to feel 3 years down the line because they're still developing as people throughout the process. Plan b c and x is great and sensible but it doesn't take away the pain of breaking the bonds kids make when a boarding school becomes their 2nd home, and their friends and houseparents become their 2nd family.

Of course.. and everything you say is true.

They have a wonderful counsellor available every day and will see many students on a weekly basis for a variety of issues. 
The pastoral care is very good and has helped my DS no end through ups and downs with moving away etc. 
 

My point was that they have a reputation to uphold and so they have to find a way of choosing the best. Yes harsh but true. And actually my 11 year old is very aware of the year 9 process. They are all so supportive of the ones who won’t be continuing on.. he is witnessing the process now and will know what to expect. As a parent you can prepare them as much as possible but it’s inevitable it will cause heartbreak. So does getting an injury, so does not getting the part you wasn’t, or not getting into upper school after 5 years training at any of the top schools in the UK. Heartbreak, disappointment..  it’s all part of it. 
I feel for those at other Vocational schools who have 5 years training because that is what the school sold them, and then are unsuccessful in all their upper school auditions . Again bitter disappointment. The school promised them 5 years and that’s what they got.. but now nothing . 
There is plenty of support for the students leaving and yes it’s horrendous but most stages of a ballet career are . 

[Neverdancedjustamum]

8 minutes ago, The red shoes said:

Of course.. and everything you say is true.

They have a wonderful counsellor available every day and will see many students on a weekly basis for a variety of issues. 
The pastoral care is very good and has helped my DS no end through ups and downs with moving away etc. 
 

My point was that they have a reputation to uphold and so they have to find a way of choosing the best. Yes harsh but true. And actually my 11 year old is very aware of the year 9 process. They are all so supportive of the ones who won’t be continuing on.. he is witnessing the process now and will know what to expect. As a parent you can prepare them as much as possible but it’s inevitable it will cause heartbreak. So does getting an injury, so does not getting the part you wasn’t, or not getting into upper school after 5 years training at any of the top schools in the UK. Heartbreak, disappointment..  it’s all part of it. 
I feel for those at other Vocational schools who have 5 years training because that is what the school sold them, and then are unsuccessful in all their upper school auditions . Again bitter disappointment. The school promised them 5 years and that’s what they got.. but now nothing . 
There is plenty of support for the students leaving and yes it’s horrendous but most stages of a ballet career are . 

However, those 5 years aren’t purely training, there is academics too as these vocational  schools like to emphasise . 5 years is fairly normal in any other school and I would think that a disruption after 3 years has more impact than one after 5 years when they’ve done their GCSE’s and are more mature age-wise. A lot of kids in non-vocational schools would change educational institutions after year 11 whether it’s to go to upper school/6th form/college. I would say there’s a much smaller percentage having to move after year 9 and no matter how prepared you think a child is, it must take some adjustment to go from a boarding school “bubble” to a “normal” school. It must feel like a massive change from studying and living with say, 30 or less other kids in your year group to going to school where you’re one of maybe 150-200 in your year group. You also go from almost having this single focused goal to having to contend with thinking of more than one option. 

[The red shoes]

4 minutes ago, Neverdancedjustamum said:

However, those 5 years aren’t purely training, there is academics too as these vocational  schools like to emphasise . 5 years is fairly normal in any other school and I would think that a disruption after 3 years has more impact than one after 5 years when they’ve done their GCSE’s and are more mature age-wise. A lot of kids in non-vocational schools would change educational institutions after year 11 whether it’s to go to upper school/6th form/college. I would say there’s a much smaller percentage having to move after year 9 and no matter how prepared you think a child is, it must take some adjustment to go from a boarding school “bubble” to a “normal” school. It must feel like a massive change from studying and living with say, 30 or less other kids in your year group to going to school where you’re one of maybe 150-200 in your year group. You also go from almost having this single focused goal to having to contend with thinking of more than one option. 

Yes true but a lot may have had false hope for 5 years and then realising they aren’t cut out for a career in classical ballet. Hard pill to swallow at any age . 
My ds has a choice between RBS and another school which promised 5 years. 
I laid it all out to him and he still wanted to go to RBS as wanted to at least “ try” to get through to the end. His words and kudos to him. 
 

I think this has now gone way off track of what the original poster was looking for so will leave it there 🙂 

[Ruby Foo]

The point of a good ballet school is to ' train' the best dancers.

A student was assessed out at age 12. She arrived at my vocational school where she trained for 4 years. She was then accepted back to the original school in US. She declined the place. My vocational school did the work the other was supposed to do. All that heartache for nothing.  She went elsewhere and gained a Classical contract.

Maybe this will give confidence to the OP

[Neverdancedjustamum]

3 minutes ago, The red shoes said:

Yes true but a lot may have had false hope for 5 years and then realising they aren’t cut out for a career in classical ballet. Hard pill to swallow at any age . 
My ds has a choice between RBS and another school which promised 5 years. 
I laid it all out to him and he still wanted to go to RBS as wanted to at least “ try” to get through to the end. His words and kudos to him. 
 

I think this has now gone way off track of what the original poster was looking for so will leave it there 🙂 

I agree, no DC should ever live in false hope. Even up until year 11, they are still very young. Entering at year 7, there is a lot of uncertainties - physiques change, injuries happen, passions fade - BUT if schools really carefully consider their recruitment, monitoring, and feedback to these students, then no one should live in false hope for 3 or 5 years. What to me is harsher is being assessed out/not being offered the next stage after 3 years sometimes out of the blue, with very little or no clue of what’s to come. If schools give regular, honest, thorough and realistic feedback to students as they progress through the years, then these students and their parents can make informed decisions out of their own accord without having to be assessed out. And I always did wonder too whether being assured 3 or 5 years is a top consideration of any parent or child when faced with a choice between RBS and another school. If it were between two other schools perhaps but let’s face it, RBS is RBS and it’s easier to remember those who turned down places because it happens so rarely.  To answer the original poster’s question, I have read of and heard of lots of success stories of dancers who have been assessed out or were told they weren’t good enough etc. It does depend on the student’s personality and constitution - are they the type so determined to want to to prove others wrong and still succeed and will they find excellent and nurturing training after or will the system affect or worse. ‘break’ them to the point that they would just want to quit dancing entirely. 

[The red shoes]

4 minutes ago, valentina said:

The point of a good ballet school is to ' train' the best dancers.

A student was assessed out at age 12. She arrived at my vocational school where she trained for 4 years. She was then accepted back to the original school in US. She declined the place. My vocational school did the work the other was supposed to do. All that heartache for nothing.  She went elsewhere and gained a Classical contract.

Maybe this will give confidence to the OP

Fantastic!! Great story !

[The red shoes]

2 minutes ago, Neverdancedjustamum said:

I agree, no DC should ever live in false hope. Even up until year 11, they are still very young. Entering at year 7, there is a lot of uncertainties - physiques change, injuries happen, passions fade - BUT if schools really carefully consider their recruitment, monitoring, and feedback to these students, then no one should live in false hope for 3 or 5 years. What to me is harsher is being assessed out/not being offered the next stage after 3 years sometimes out of the blue, with very little or no clue of what’s to come. If schools give regular, honest, thorough and realistic feedback to students as they progress through the years, then these students and their parents can make informed decisions out of their own accord without having to be assessed out. And I always did wonder too whether being assured 3 or 5 years is a top consideration of any parent or child when faced with a choice between RBS and another school. If it were between two other schools perhaps but let’s face it, RBS is RBS and it’s easier to remember those who turned down places because it happens so rarely.  To answer the original poster’s question, I have read of and heard of lots of success stories of dancers who have been assessed out or were told they weren’t good enough etc. It does depend on the student’s personality and constitution - are they the type so determined to want to to prove others wrong and still succeed and will they find excellent and nurturing training after or will the system affect or worse. ‘break’ them to the point that they would just want to quit dancing entirely. 

Just to point out.. they have regular reports and meetings and it’s made quite clear in the reports if a student is exceeding about required standards, meeting require standards, improvement needed to reach required standards or significant improvement needed. Obviously if your technique , musicality etc keeps being marked as improvement needed through year 7&8 I’d say it was a good indication that your time is nearly up. The drive and graft is up to the student to get their reports up into the meeting and exceeding sections . It can’t just be down to the teachers . 
They are very transparent.. no shocks 

That’s all I wanted to say 

[stardust1]

I was able to listen to the recent Zoom call meeting with parents of children invited to final auditions.  It was specifically said that it’s possible for a child to be doing very well in the foundation year assessments as they are measured against the requirements of that program at that specific time but  they may still not be invited to progress because the expectations of them - physically, emotionally and technically - are very, very different in the next stage of training and they are not be able to meet those in their opinion, whether that’s years 10/11 from year 9 or at the next two entry/exit points further up the school.   The context was very much intended to be positive in that not being asked to stay on was no indication that you were failing or not right for a classical dance career but that you just weren’t right for their next stage.  He said many will go on to flourish at other schools and will always benefit from being able to have ‘successfully completed such and such program(s) at RBS’ on their CV.  My point is that not being asked to stay on at one of the transition points may still be an unexpected outcome for a student and their parents as it is not solely linked to assessment outcomes, this is why it should not be considered as ‘having been assessed out’.  Others who were part of the same meeting may have interpreted this differently of course.

[Harwel]

I have read this thread with great interest.  Thank the Lord, I am no longer attached to the dance world personally.  After a lifetime (over 50 years) of being attached to it in some way (mother a classical dancer then teacher, me training vocationally and having to stop through injury, my son training at vocational school and also having to stop through injury - also have to say both my son and I have thrived outside the dance world - that determination, attention to detail and work ethic needed to dance never leaves you!). 
 

I think the changes RBS have made to their assessment procedures are to be commended.  Something needed to change  as the process over the years has been horrific!  We personally know young people who where assessed out under very traumatic circumstances and they had no idea it was coming.  We also know many who have been assessed out and gone on to other vocational schools, back to old dance schools and continued to make professional careers as dancers - others who where happy to change completely and gone on to be lawyers, doctors and many many other wonderful things.  Are there scars? Yes. Would they wish they had never entered the ballet world? No.  I have been quite affected by my time dancing - a life time of disordered eating which started at 14 and a deeply cynical view of the dance world.  
 

Do I still love ballet? Absolutely! Do I wish I was a prima ballerina of a world renowned company? You bet I do.  Would I do it all again? 100% yes.  Do I want my children to go through it? No!  Never wanted my son to do it, but the opportunities he got through dancing and his school led him to his amazing career that he has now, which he is absolutely flying with.  My younger son never wanted to dance but is a fabulous singer/actor he is at full time MT college and the dance teachers love him and keep telling him they wish he’d danced from a young age as he would have been fantastic at ballet! 
 

I wish everyone who’s child is on this path the very best of luck.  It is TOUGH.  Physically and emotionally.  I hope you all get the support you need and can give support to those around you through the hard times (everyone will have them and some hide it better than others).  
 

To the new parents whose children are just starting this journey. I hope your children continue to love their journey and you as parents have the strength to make the right decisions on behalf of your child - you need to be their advocate, you need to see the unhealthy signs and you have to stand up to the established view for the sake of your child’s health - it will be required at some point along the path.  Have your eyes 100% open - the only person that has your child’s best interests at heart is you.  Do not believe the hype, the very smooth perfectly scripted sales pitch, trust your instincts. 
 

 

[Neverdancedjustamum]

10 minutes ago, Harwel said:

 

To the new parents whose children are just starting this journey. I hope your children continue to love their journey and you as parents have the strength to make the right decisions on behalf of your child - you need to be their advocate, you need to see the unhealthy signs and you have to stand up to the established view for the sake of your child’s health - it will be required at some point along the path.  Have your eyes 100% open - the only person that has your child’s best interests at heart is you.  Do not believe the hype, the very smooth perfectly scripted sales pitch, trust your instincts. 
 

 

Exactly this, 100%. I think this is the one that will be quite difficult to do and keep in mind when you’re just starting out, and it’s also hard to see beyond a school’s name I’m sure once you’re in. I am not in that situation but I would hold my hand up and say that if I was, I do worry that if my child told me s/he wants to leave, I think I’ll be tempted to say “are you sure? You do know hundreds of kids would love your place”.  I think that will be the instinctive thought. I notice a very marked difference in the conversations I have with mums of those just about to start/in Year 7 to those whose DCs are in the latter years (years 10-11 and even upper school). This in itself is very telling, that after the sales pitch and the initial cosy bubble, the other things become more evident through the years.

[The red shoes]

1 hour ago, stardust1 said:

I was able to listen to the recent Zoom call meeting with parents of children invited to final auditions.  It was specifically said that it’s possible for a child to be doing very well in the foundation year assessments as they are measured against the requirements of that program at that specific time but  they may still not be invited to progress because the expectations of them - physically, emotionally and technically - are very, very different in the next stage of training and they are not be able to meet those in their opinion, whether that’s years 10/11 from year 9 or at the next two entry/exit points further up the school.   The context was very much intended to be positive in that not being asked to stay on was no indication that you were failing or not right for a classical dance career but that you just weren’t right for their next stage.  He said many will go on to flourish at other schools and will always benefit from being able to have ‘successfully completed such and such program(s) at RBS’ on their CV.  My point is that not being asked to stay on at one of the transition points may still be an unexpected outcome for a student and their parents as it is not solely linked to assessment outcomes, this is why it should not be considered as ‘having been assessed out’.  Others who were part of the same meeting may have interpreted this differently of course.

100% to all of this !! 

[Coffeemum]

OK, so, a little bit of first hand info here. And I'll be brief, but happy to answer any DMs. 7 year 9 girls have not been offered a place for year 10. 2 boys, I think. That leaves 4 from the original cohort of girls, though some of those left before year 9. I won't put anything else up here other than saying that system still has a long way to go in terms of pastoral care for this particular situation. 

[Neverdancedjustamum]

9 hours ago, Coffeemum said:

OK, so, a little bit of first hand info here. And I'll be brief, but happy to answer any DMs. 7 year 9 girls have not been offered a place for year 10. 2 boys, I think. That leaves 4 from the original cohort of girls, though some of those left before year 9. I won't put anything else up here other than saying that system still has a long way to go in terms of pastoral care for this particular situation. 

That does seem quite a lot of girls compared to previous years. I must admit that as an outsider with no first hand experience, when I heard about the new structure the first thing that came to mind was that it will give the school more leeway and justification to let a lot more students go at the end of Y9. Cynical I know but that’s really what came to mind immediately. You can see from the numbers the previous poster mentioned - the number of girls is significantly more than previous years. Could be coincidence, I don’t know, but the next few years will tell. I just saw on social media a 12 year old international (summer birthday too so very young in the year if she were in the U.K.) has just been offered a Y10 place. That’s almost skipping 2 years, I do wonder how she will cope academically if she were to take up the offer. As a side note, when things like this are discussed, boys are often a slightly separate matter as you can see from the numbers the previous poster mentioned. It’s the same when talking about auditions and offers. I remember one year the odds of a boy getting in after finals was almost 50% and the girls about 15% (if not less). Not to deter from the fact that it’s still extremely difficult for boys to get in but I don’t think it’s an equal comparison. It’s just the nature of ballet. I remember seeing a Vaganova documentary once and a young boy talking about this - how they know full well it’s an entirely different matter for girls who want a place.  The odds are more stacked against girls overall just because of the numbers.

[Julsgalaxy]

I must say as a parent of a DC in yr6 who has just been offered a yr7 place at WL , this thread has been very good to read for the reality of it but also fills me with dread and anxiety about accepting the place as it’s filled with worry about what the next 3 years could bring at the end of it .

I think it’s good to go into it with eyes wide open but it doesn’t feel like the joyous achievement that it should be knowing that it doesn’t mean a smooth ride all the way through to yr 11 and worry about the psychological affects of it all. 
it feels a bit like taking a chance accepting the place in the hope that your DC “makes it” passed the next 3 years.

[Peony]

Poor kids, that’s a major upheaval whether coming or going. Might be difficult finding 9 MDS at other schools at year 10 stage too. I guess you can’t judge on one single year group but it seems like a very high rejection rate

Edited March 27, 2022 by Peony

[Kerfuffle]

Letting go of 9 pupils does seem rather harsh but perhaps it really is inevitable if a school makes its choices so young. As has been said countless times so much changes in those 3 years and there is no guarantee that that selection truly represents those with the best potential at 14. I guess that there is a fair amount of change in who the RBS chose between JA and SA too. 

[Neverdancedjustamum]

48 minutes ago, Julsgalaxy said:

I must say as a parent of a DC in yr6 who has just been offered a yr7 place at WL , this thread has been very good to read for the reality of it but also fills me with dread and anxiety about accepting the place as it’s filled with worry about what the next 3 years could bring at the end of it .

I think it’s good to go into it with eyes wide open but it doesn’t feel like the joyous achievement that it should be knowing that it doesn’t mean a smooth ride all the way through to yr 11 and worry about the psychological affects of it all. 
it feels a bit like taking a chance accepting the place in the hope that your DC “makes it” passed the next 3 years.

Congratulation to your DC! Despite all the things on this thread it’s a major feat and achievement being offered a place at the RBS. It’s such a high profile school internationally that I must admit it’s very very rare that a DC and parents opt to go elsewhere given the chance. But as you said, it’s good to go into these things with eyes open and be able to weigh the pros and cons (and prioritising the child’s well-being).  It’s a huge commitment of a child’s life and it’s always tricky to know what they want at that age and at the same time even if you see them every week, that’s still a lot of your DC’s life that will be spent away from you during his/her formative years (if DC is to board). In addition to the number of Y9s getting places at Y10, do also consider the number of Y11s who get an upper school place, bearing in mind how many of those have been there since Y7. The story might be quite telling. Finally check the stats on the second year uppers who get offered the final year at upper school and then final year on to Company. Again, check how many have been there from Y7. And remember there’s always lots of roads learning to a DC’s goal and the one that’s most obvious might not always be the best.

[Ruby Foo]

31 minutes ago, Julsgalaxy said:

I must say as a parent of a DC in yr6 who has just been offered a yr7 place at WL , this thread has been very good to read for the reality of it but also fills me with dread and anxiety about accepting the place as it’s filled with worry about what the next 3 years could bring at the end of it .

I think it’s good to go into it with eyes wide open but it doesn’t feel like the joyous achievement that it should be knowing that it doesn’t mean a smooth ride all the way through to yr 11 and worry about the psychological affects of it all. 
it feels a bit like taking a chance accepting the place in the hope that your DC “makes it” passed the next 3 years.

My daughter is 3rd family generation of dancers/ teachers. I didn't want any of my offspring to dance knowing what I do about this profession but sadly she fell through the net and, as it's her passion, I didn't feel I had the right to interfere. It has been tricky but interesting being firstly, a mother to a dancer but also  a daughter to a teacher, a dancer and teacher myself. We have all experienced so much in terms of training and training others. Many, many vocational schools. Many of these issues are inherent in Classical Ballet and go right through the training and into the companies. None of it necessarily stops when you get a contract. This is why having a forum like this is so helpful. You can see how much support IN EVERY AREA you need to give your children.... just don't stop. Keep it coming, even if they are silent and things appear to be going well. Bring the professionals in if you can, if you need to, and if you can afford it. Counsellors, physios, sports massage, nutritionists and other teachers ( for confidence)  can all help when the training is letting you down. But you know your child better than them all, so you will be the most important source of support. You will be able to balance the books.As another poster said, don't leave it down to the school, no matter how solid it appears to be.

The most frustrating thing about a classical ballet training is that many is that many of the issues which are so mentally damaging could be so easily be ever so slightly tweaked by the establishment to make them less so, but they just don't do it!

[Kerfuffle]

I think kids need down time too, this ballet ambition  can stifle the rest of their adolescent lives. The most heart breaking takes involve those going away at 11. My DD, who is non vocational, is passionate about her ballet but just about manages some balance in her life while being at home. She has just been doing y10 exams the week following a major performance. It’s been a challenge, most of all in the fact that her school doesn’t even know this about her! It’s always going to be a very tricky choice to make. Huge congratulations to your child @Julsgalaxyfor being offered a place which is worth celebrating in its own right ! 

[NotadanceMa]

43 minutes ago, valentina said:

My daughter is 3rd family generation of dancers/ teachers. I didn't want any of my offspring to dance knowing what I do about this profession but sadly she fell through the net and, as it's her passion, I didn't feel I had the right to interfere. It has been tricky but interesting being firstly, a mother to a dancer but also  a daughter to a teacher, a dancer and teacher myself. We have all experienced so much in terms of training and training others. Many, many vocational schools. Many of these issues are inherent in Classical Ballet and go right through the training and into the companies. None of it necessarily stops when you get a contract. This is why having a forum like this is so helpful. You can see how much support IN EVERY AREA you need to give your children.... just don't stop. Keep it coming, even if they are silent and things appear to be going well. Bring the professionals in if you can, if you need to, and if you can afford it. Counsellors, physios, sports massage, nutritionists and other teachers ( for confidence)  can all help when the training is letting you down. But you know your child better than them all, so you will be the most important source of support. You will be able to balance the books.As another poster said, don't leave it down to the school, no matter how solid it appears to be.

The most frustrating thing about a classical ballet training is that many is that many of the issues which are so mentally damaging could be so easily be ever so slightly tweaked by the establishment to make them less so, but they just don't do it!

@valentino u make a great point about doing whatever is possible for your child even once inside the system.

For me I am constantly cheerleading from the side, checking in regularly, listening keenly to see if and when I may need to step in. Reading between the lines, the subtext.

my child has only just started, last September and Y9. Not allowing radio silence, creating space for conversations
We mark things out of 10, still only at a 6 out of 10, academics brilliant, but dance less so. 

The areas that are still very much lacking the most for me as a parent are pastoral care by which I mean proper emotional care and support for children from Y7, that is as much a part of the timetable as repertoire and barre. 
And of course the well established entrenched classical ballet culture of teaching; I was taught this way 20,30,40,50 years ago so now I shall do the same to you. And IME still remains mostly unchallenged in vocational ballet training. Of course there are absolutely amazing vocational teachers out there, but for lower school pupils there should be an environment of nurture and meeting the children where they are at in order to get the best possible outcomes for the child (not the school, not the teacher).
An excellent teacher changes their approach to include all children, with their best interests at heart.

 

 

 

7 Y9 girls from a cohort of 12/13 is unacceptable and to me says more about an establishment and it’s training methods than it can ever to about any 13/4 yr old girl. Yes really and if we as parents cannot see this then we are really not paying attention to what is going on.

 

 

 

 

 

[Coffeemum]

21 minutes ago, NotadanceMa said:

@valentino u make a great point about doing whatever is possible for your child even once inside the system.

For me I am constantly cheerleading from the side, checking in regularly, listening keenly to see if and when I may need to step in. Reading between the lines, the subtext.

my child has only just started, last September and Y9. Not allowing radio silence, creating space for conversations
We mark things out of 10, still only at a 6 out of 10, academics brilliant, but dance less so. 

The areas that are still very much lacking the most for me as a parent are pastoral care by which I mean proper emotional care and support for children from Y7, that is as much a part of the timetable as repertoire and barre. 
And of course the well established entrenched classical ballet culture of teaching; I was taught this way 20,30,40,50 years ago so now I shall do the same to you. And IME still remains mostly unchallenged in vocational ballet training. Of course there are absolutely amazing vocational teachers out there, but for lower school pupils there should be an environment of nurture and meeting the children where they are at in order to get the best possible outcomes for the child (not the school, not the teacher).
An excellent teacher changes their approach to include all children, with their best interests at heart.

 

 

 

7 Y9 girls from a cohort of 12/13 is unacceptable and to me says more about an establishment and it’s training methods than it can ever to about any 13/4 yr old girl. Yes really and if we as parents cannot see this then we are really not paying attention to what is going on.

 

 

 

 

 

Yes to all of this. You've hit the nail here. My dd is already happier, stronger, back to loving ballet, being encouraged, helped and inspired more in the last few weeks of being out (you probably know my dd and that she refused to go back after half term 😊) than she has been over the last two and a half years. I'm having honest,open communication with teachers again and know what we're aiming for and what she needs to work on week by week. She's dancing in an environment of support and care and its showing. Xx

[Ruby Foo]

Such a wonderful post Notadancema.

I would also add, try to take your dc out as much as possible if you can. Know it's so tricky when you live far away.

You can always ask for special permission- a family birthday etc as an excuse to get them out.
Sometimes they get so addicted to being in that environment it's difficult for them to understand there's another life out there and that's so important for their mental health. 

[NotadanceMa]

47 minutes ago, valentina said:

Such a wonderful post Notadancema.

I would also add, try to take your dc out as much as possible if you can. Know it's so tricky when you live far away.

You can always ask for special permission- a family birthday etc as an excuse to get them out.
Sometimes they get so addicted to being in that environment it's difficult for them to understand there's another life out there and that's so important for their mental health. 

I plan to have ‘the conversation’ over the Easter break.

Have already applied to some new associate programs like Rambert and CAT associates just in case. I think it’s interesting that my child has lost their love of classical ballet. They said they absolutely hate the culture (their words)

My teen was Home Educated prior to vocational so school application not a worry for us. ❤️

 

[NotadanceMa]

1 hour ago, Coffeemum said:

Yes to all of this. You've hit the nail here. My dd is already happier, stronger, back to loving ballet, being encouraged, helped and inspired more in the last few weeks of being out (you probably know my dd and that she refused to go back after half term 😊) than she has been over the last two and a half years. I'm having honest,open communication with teachers again and know what we're aiming for and what she needs to work on week by week. She's dancing in an environment of support and care and its showing. Xx

I do know who she is ❤️
I’m so pleased to hear she is happy, supported and out. X

[Whiteduvet]

My child will also be leaving vocational school at the end of this year. Her love of ballet has reduced so much due to “having” to dance daily (her teachers are wonderful: this is a personal character trait!) it makes no sense to keep her there anymore. The pastoral care at her school though has been exceptional and we are grateful we chose her school: when applying we considered pastoral, academics and dance to be equally important and applied accordingly. 
 

I do not believe vocational school from 11 is necessary for success. We chose it because personal changes at home meant we could not provide her with quality training and so it was the only option. But I would not do so if there was the right training locally and then only if I was sure I could tip the odds in our favour. The very small proportion of children who join at 11 and make it through (I echo the sentiments above about only around a third of girls progressing through, for example…) represents for me a considerable risk of harm to a child for a very small change of success. We tried to tip that in our favour with our choice of school and I’m very glad we did. Doors have always been open to talk and chat, for example, always. That has been of huge value. 

[Coffeemum]

Just to add, my dd wasn't at all unhappy at school, she had fabulous friends and was generally having a good time. But the result was an unexpected, unpleasant shock- not seeming to relate to her reports or teacher comments, so that's something to be aware of. Her very articulate questions weren't satisfactorily answered or explained in her zoom meeting so she feels a sense of injustice which a 13 year old shouldn't have to experience. If she had known there were serious issues, she would have worked on them, or worked differently. It's been explained clearly by her new/old teachers though, which makes me wonder about the communication of teachers at the school... Whiteduvet, you're right that vocational school isn't necessary if you live near other good training programmes, as we are lucky enough to. In fact, if I was armed with the knowledge I now have, I would have chosen this over vocational school. I feel for people wo don't have this on the doorstep though. My lasting impression is that the Schools aren't invested in each and every child in the right way. And I have experience of two, top vocational schools. We'll be leaving them well alone until at least year 12 now.