Assessed out - success stories please

[Ballerinamama]

13 minutes ago, Babyballerina said:

My DD is in the first year group that have gone through this incredibly harsh and brutal process.  They did do videos and photographs that where quite frankly awful.  This year they have assessed out 9 of the year group, 7 of which are girls!  All have been replaced with international students.  This leaves 2 British girls in the year group.  You say they are supportive, I disagree!! 
This process has resulted in one of the children attempting suicide!!! Not one of the ones who are going from the year group were told that there was a problem and they might not get to the next stage, in fact they were told the opposite at artistic meetings. 

On a positive note my DD is going to another vocational school that will nurture her.  In their words at audition ‘she is a huge talent’ 

Goodness me. I had no idea the number of “assessed out” children was so high.

 

I wish your daughter the very best at her new school.

[Babyballerina]

1 minute ago, Ballerinamama said:

Goodness me. I had no idea the number of “assessed out” children was so high.

 

I wish your daughter the very best at her new school.

Thank you!  It has been particularly harsh for this year group as this is the first year at the school without Lockdowns!! 
Usually, it is one possibly two at a push but this year it has been awful! 
Nobody expected this at all, so so hard for all the children! 

Edited July 1, 2022 by Babyballerina

[Peanut68]

Hmmm….. I feel incredibly sad for any families facing this predicament & how utterly dreadful that it can lead to such a drastic thing as a suicide attempt! Surely, surely this sounds huge alarm bells all around?
For a school to tell all pupils to apply to other vocational & regular schools ‘just in case’ is a cop out. And if then the kids that have supposedly had the benefit of the best training in the world (as another poster suggests) are replaced predominantly by international students…. Well, that suggests it is NOT the best training in the world doesn’t it? Perhaps they need to audit their training programme/staff/selection processes/assessment processes/management more thoroughly to see just where the school & its training is going so wrong….IMHO.

I increasingly think we should perhaps abandon full time vocational training until a later age (14-15 like I think is more usual in many overseas places like USA) So more likely post puberty. Trouble is of course that will further engender elitism as all the training required would be family funded….. unless maybe more CAT schemes (with the fair means tested MDS funding) in more dance genres were established with fair geographic distribution? 

The money that is lavished by Government funding/grants/charitable tax breaks etc plus philanthropic donations surely would be better spent this way to create a fairer playing field for entry from say year 10 & beyond. 

Just some late night musings…..

Another thought too…. Abandon this crazy rollercoaster & vote with wallets. If all stopped endlessly applying to audition for places or attend intensives etc with all the crazy fees each thing costs then soon the penny would drop as the pounds dried up that they are not the be all end all after all!

Again I find myself asking (& how do we find out?) who audits this? I feel there is massive misuse of public funds - the hard earned money of each & everyone of us UK tax payers & IT NEEDS investigations!!!
 

[Babyballerina]

28 minutes ago, Peanut68 said:

Hmmm….. I feel incredibly sad for any families facing this predicament & how utterly dreadful that it can lead to such a drastic thing as a suicide attempt! Surely, surely this sounds huge alarm bells all around?
For a school to tell all pupils to apply to other vocational & regular schools ‘just in case’ is a cop out. And if then the kids that have supposedly had the benefit of the best training in the world (as another poster suggests) are replaced predominantly by international students…. Well, that suggests it is NOT the best training in the world doesn’t it? Perhaps they need to audit their training programme/staff/selection processes/assessment processes/management more thoroughly to see just where the school & its training is going so wrong….IMHO.

I increasingly think we should perhaps abandon full time vocational training until a later age (14-15 like I think is more usual in many overseas places like USA) So more likely post puberty. Trouble is of course that will further engender elitism as all the training required would be family funded….. unless maybe more CAT schemes (with the fair means tested MDS funding) in more dance genres were established with fair geographic distribution? 

The money that is lavished by Government funding/grants/charitable tax breaks etc plus philanthropic donations surely would be better spent this way to create a fairer playing field for entry from say year 10 & beyond. 

Just some late night musings…..

Another thought too…. Abandon this crazy rollercoaster & vote with wallets. If all stopped endlessly applying to audition for places or attend intensives etc with all the crazy fees each thing costs then soon the penny would drop as the pounds dried up that they are not the be all end all after all!

Again I find myself asking (& how do we find out?) who audits this? I feel there is massive misuse of public funds - the hard earned money of each & everyone of us UK tax payers & IT NEEDS investigations!!!
 

You are absolutely right on all points!  They have taken 12 of the most talented kids in their year 7 intake, talent doesn’t disappear, only to ask them to leave when they have failed them . My feeling is that the child should be awarded the MDS funding not the establishment, the funding should move with the child!! 
This large school has a very large bursary from a major company that is to fund international students for 2 years and then they can apply for MDS  funding.  Why are we funding international students at the expense of home grown talent.  Our training needs to be completely overhauled.  

[Peanut68]

We need to collectively SHOUT very loud. I’m kind of glad to be out the other end but it doesn’t stop me smarting at the unjustness, the unfairness, the wanton waste of money & worse, the crushing of young people. 
Any one on here any idea how this works? Ask questions of our MP’s?? Someone needs to take this on….. a journalist perhaps?  I feel sure there is material for a Panorama type expose documentary. Maybe then change will happen! 

[Ruby Foo]

I think it would be fair to say that certain vocational schools are like magpies. They see something they like and take it. Before long, something prettier comes along and the original is replaced. This continues throughout the whole training process which undermines the word 'training'!

[Neverdancedjustamum]

Sadly, despite this process being well known and the stats quite clear to see, I can’t see anything changing. I know parents who know all this and yet would still jump at the chance should their child get offered a place. Ultimately, I guess for most it’s too big a name to turn down and most would say it’s been their child’s dream since they could walk or that they can’t let their child miss an opportunity (better to have tried, no regrets, etc). For example every year I know a lot pay the application fees, save on other family  expenses, just so their DCs can attend summer intensives there because they know there is the chance their DC might get spotted and be offered a full time place. In any case, it’s the family’s choice and I can understand why it would be very challenging to turn down such an opportunity. 

[sunrise81]

2 hours ago, Babyballerina said:

My DD is in the first year group that have gone through this incredibly harsh and brutal process.  They did do videos and photographs that where quite frankly awful.  This year they have assessed out 9 of the year group, 7 of which are girls!  All have been replaced with international students.  This leaves 2 British girls in the year group.  You say they are supportive, I disagree!! 
This process has resulted in one of the children attempting suicide!!! Not one of the ones who are going from the year group were told that there was a problem and they might not get to the next stage, in fact they were told the opposite at artistic meetings. 

On a positive note my DD is going to another vocational school that will nurture her.  In their words at audition ‘she is a huge talent’ 

This makes me so sad to read this....I don't even know how to respond to this. My dd knows a couple of the year 9s from JAs 😢

[Peanut68]

A case of Emperors New Clothes…?

[Ruby]

I feel so upset and saddening to read a student attempted suicide. I appreciate that competition for a place at vocational school is very hard, and I can only imagine the intense pressure and stress the students (and their family) must feel, as there are so many things beyond their control, whilst they work so hard in the hope of one day realising their dream. I sincerely hope the student receives the help needed to recover from this for a happy future. 

[Pas de Quatre]

This is utterly wrong. Does the RBS realise that the message they are giving out is that their own training is not good enough? For a long time this has been apparent in the low numbers of those who move from WL to Upper School. There is a wonderful cohort who are now young principals with RB who were at WL and moved through the system. I doubt if we are going to see that ever again. 

[NotadanceMa]

On 29/03/2022 at 09:59, DVDfan said:

Sadly, shedding kids the school thinks will bring down their exam results is far from unknown. Some  years ago I knew of one lass, intelligent but with some learning difficulty, who was dumped from her (independent) school 5 weeks before A levels.  It was difficult not to think that they'd left it that long so that they could keep her fees.

It follows, alas, that one should be quite inquisitive about the methods a school (college, university) uses to reach the top of the league tables as there can be more to it than good teaching following a good admission process.

If I could uptick you more than once I would.

[glowlight]

So sad.  My heart goes out to all the families affected by this.

[Whiteduvet]

So sad. This thread should be required reading for all ballet parents, particularly those of JA’s. The dream is not the reality. 

[Kerfuffle]

OP this sounds like a hideous experience for your daughter’s cohort, what a relief that she has found somewhere that will appreciate and nurture her. Having the right teacher is so important, more than the name of the school. I guess that all those international students are seasoned competition winners? It will be interesting to see if they all get into the upper school. I wonder if a British girl trained to the same extent would have the same chance? (If she did the same hours, entered and won YAGP etc) 

[Tippytoes17]

Apologies if this is a simply answered question or has been answered before but why do international

students only end up joining the school later in the school in higher years and not in year 7? Is it only in the uk that vocational full time training starts then that requires students to leave home or is it just as simple as it being that international students don’t apply until later stages for some reason?

[Neverdancedjustamum]

36 minutes ago, Tippytoes17 said:

Apologies if this is a simply answered question or has been answered before but why do international

students only end up joining the school later in the school in higher years and not in year 7? Is it only in the uk that vocational full time training starts then that requires students to leave home or is it just as simple as it being that international students don’t apply until later stages for some reason?

It may be the case that it’s harder for parents to let their children board at age 11/12 especially when they’re based overseas and are miles away. Personally, I can’t even imagine having my own DCs away from home at that age (even if it’s just during the week) but I know this is a very personal choice. I imagine for families who are overseas, that’s an even harder decision. The older they are, the more mature they are about living on their own and I also think that the more mature they are, they’re more certain that’s actually what they went to pursue. I didn’t know what I really wanted to be at age 18, so kudos to those 11/12 year olds who are passionate enough to know what they really want and are willing to be away from their families and homes  at such young ages.  I know in a lot of countries too that at that age, academics isn’t done within their dance schools so they’re either home schooled or go to school near their dance school so there’s no need to board as such. 

Edited July 2, 2022 by Neverdancedjustamum

[Whiteduvet]

16 hours ago, Peanut68 said:

We need to collectively SHOUT very loud. I’m kind of glad to be out the other end but it doesn’t stop me smarting at the unjustness, the unfairness, the wanton waste of money & worse, the crushing of young people. 
Any one on here any idea how this works? Ask questions of our MP’s?? Someone needs to take this on….. a journalist perhaps?  I feel sure there is material for a Panorama type expose documentary. Maybe then change will happen! 

I thought WL was already under investigation? 

[Aklf]

30 minutes ago, Tippytoes17 said:

Apologies if this is a simply answered question or has been answered before but why do international

students only end up joining the school later in the school in higher years and not in year 7? Is it only in the uk that vocational full time training starts then that requires students to leave home or is it just as simple as it being that international students don’t apply until later stages for some reason?

I think this may occur for a variety of reasons- certainly children being a little older and more mature to move away from home to board could be one. It certainly does happen but is rarer for a 10/11 year old to be willing to live far from home.

Also the funding is difficult because I believe  you have to be a U.K. resident for 2 years before MDS can be applied so perhaps that’s another? 2 years of funding if joining at yr 10 may be more possible than the full 5? 
Also if you join at yr 10 perhaps it seems there would be a greater chance of progressing through to the upper school? 
Not too sure but those are just some

possibilities.

[NotadanceMa]

I also notice that the RB have changed their admission policy re SEN. (Sept 21) This is of particular interest to me; they can now deselect on the basis of SEN.

Prior to the new training revamp this was not the case. 
I kept the old RB SEN report in my files, the new one is very different indeed.

 

[Lifeafterballet]

My Dd wasn’t “assessed out” of her vocational school and completed the full 8 years of ballet training.

How we now wish she had been 😢

Rarely do children have the perfect physique and facility that classical ballet demands and when it’s their absolute dream and they are determined to succeed they will do anything to stay in. 
Our daughter from the age of 13/14, just before the first assessing out appraisal, started to abuse herself physically. She deliberately stopped herself growing and developing. It was calculated and controlled as she truly believed that this would help her achieve her dream. From that point on she became very successful. Rewarded you could say for her self harm. How can you convince a child that their actions are wrong and harmful when they are praised and rewarded. When we attended YAGP finals her belief was reinforced that what she was doing was necessary and working. In the masterclasses they all looked like her. I was shocked. It was the first time she hadn’t looked out of place with her age group. What can you do as a parent ? We felt so confused. She is a very intelligent girl, not mentally unwell, but so focused on her goal that she was willing to hurt herself to dance. The vocational school had no idea how to manage her. They just weighed and heighten her to with an inch of her life and punished her by threatening to stop her dancing if she fell below their set BMI level. There was no psychological support, it was like it was a new phenomenon !!!  They never ever asked her why ? I’m sure they feared the answer as her rationale for her actions was in some ways justified by the outcome.
We privately got her to see a psychologist who following the assessment concluded that the problem was ballet. She was just so driven to achieve.

I feel very sad to read about these 13/14 year old girls who have been assessed out of their ballet school for various reasons. If your child has to force themselves to be a certain way to stay in that school then I feel more sorry for those as we personally know all too well the long term damage that this causes 😢The road to recovery from such choices and that particular ballet journey is very long and hard. 
My dd once said that it appeared that everyone who had left her vocational school seemed far more healthier and happier than when they had been there. Maybe 🤔 being assessed out of a particular school / environment that demands perfection is a lucky escape. So sadly painful at the time but for the best in the long term. Dd and I talked the other day about how she may have looked now if it wasn’t for ballet. But you can’t undo the past but hope that others will be supported better in the future with their training. 
 

[Ruby Foo]

Being assessed out, and all that means, both negatively and positively, is just one dimension. The stress and pressure are only just beginning for those staying on. Overseas students being taken in in yr 10, quickly becoming favourites due to their much advanced ability, do not necessarily make it to Upper School and even if they do, can find themselves falling out of favour and being shunned for the new student just beginning. Just because you are in Upper School does not mean ( whoever you are and wherever you came from) that you are free from a particularly nasty and underhand, verbal and emotional abuse which can leave you broken and in tatters. This can be sustained for a very long period of time and lead to students suffering mentally and physically. This shunning process is often done in the cruelest and subtlest of ways ( so there's little movement for complaint) and leaves perfectly able students (a fact backed by other professional teachers) feeling completely broken and that they should give up thinking of a career in Ballet. All this can happen in lower school too of course, but there's a general sense that once you reach Upper School, you've made it. Hope this dispels that myth.

[Kerfuffle]

@valentinaDo you mean that the school itself (teaching staff) are shunning the pupils? What would be your advice to students hoping to train 16+? 

[Peanut68]

1 hour ago, Whiteduvet said:

I thought WL was already under investigation? 

Is it? By whom & about what???

I enquire although appreciate that mods quite correctly may want to maintain control of what we discuss.

But any open public enquiries I’m sure can quite rightly be discussed factually…

[Birdy]

Sometimes I am thankful that vocational schools have not really caught on in the United States. Ballet is extremely difficult both physically and mentally, but at least when class was over my daughter came home to a house and family filled with non-ballet people. On weekends she spent time with “normal” kids. I imagine vocational school is tougher psychologically because you spend so much more time inside the ballet bubble. This is not meant as a judgement of anyone who sends their kids to vocational ballet school. I just empathize with how hard it must be.

[Ruby Foo]

18 minutes ago, Kerfuffle said:

@valentinaDo you mean that the school itself (teaching staff) are shunning the pupils? What would be your advice to students hoping to train 16+? 

My advice is to find yourself an incredible couple of teachers who will nurture and work as a mature partnership with your son or daughter daughter at the very highest level. Giving them as much as they give. And with mutual respect at the heart of everything. It's perfectly possible to do but not at all easy. There are lots of wonderful teachers out there who can replicate that training with lots of planning to add in pas de deux, Pilates, Contemporary, Strength and Conditioning etc. but you will need money, and pots of it! 
Its a gamble... and you may be one of the lucky ones who incurs no issues at school. You may sail through and have a very rewarding experience as many do. The training is incredibly tough but amazing if you can cope and are lucky to be seen positively by the teacher.

[Kerfuffle]

@valentina Thank you for your advice, I have DM’d you, as it’s going a bit off topic. 

[Mummy twinkle toes]

4 hours ago, Peanut68 said:

Is it? By whom & about what???

I enquire although appreciate that mods quite correctly may want to maintain control of what we discuss.

But any open public enquiries I’m sure can quite rightly be discussed factually…

Luke Jennings appealed for information but not many parents discussed it. Westminster council closed a file early after lack of evidence or parents coming forward. 

LJ wrote this article https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v43/n18/luke-jennings/learned-behaviour

 

He also appeared in the thread last year titled ‘issues at WL’. Sadly, the number of children attending are small in comparison to other private schools so that is probably why it does not raise alarm bells with funders. If they were funding much larger cohorts of say 100 children each year group then it would probably trigger with the government. 
Good luck to all of the children that have been assessed out.

[Mummy twinkle toes]

Just to add RBS updated their Safeguarding policy last September: https://www.royalballetschool.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/Safeguarding-Policy-September-2021.pdf

[Babyballerina]

17 hours ago, cotes du rhone ! said:

My Dd wasn’t “assessed out” of her vocational school and completed the full 8 years of ballet training.

How we now wish she had been 😢

Rarely do children have the perfect physique and facility that classical ballet demands and when it’s their absolute dream and they are determined to succeed they will do anything to stay in. 
Our daughter from the age of 13/14, just before the first assessing out appraisal, started to abuse herself physically. She deliberately stopped herself growing and developing. It was calculated and controlled as she truly believed that this would help her achieve her dream. From that point on she became very successful. Rewarded you could say for her self harm. How can you convince a child that their actions are wrong and harmful when they are praised and rewarded. When we attended YAGP finals her belief was reinforced that what she was doing was necessary and working. In the masterclasses they all looked like her. I was shocked. It was the first time she hadn’t looked out of place with her age group. What can you do as a parent ? We felt so confused. She is a very intelligent girl, not mentally unwell, but so focused on her goal that she was willing to hurt herself to dance. The vocational school had no idea how to manage her. They just weighed and heighten her to with an inch of her life and punished her by threatening to stop her dancing if she fell below their set BMI level. There was no psychological support, it was like it was a new phenomenon !!!  They never ever asked her why ? I’m sure they feared the answer as her rationale for her actions was in some ways justified by the outcome.
We privately got her to see a psychologist who following the assessment concluded that the problem was ballet. She was just so driven to achieve.

I feel very sad to read about these 13/14 year old girls who have been assessed out of their ballet school for various reasons. If your child has to force themselves to be a certain way to stay in that school then I feel more sorry for those as we personally know all too well the long term damage that this causes 😢The road to recovery from such choices and that particular ballet journey is very long and hard. 
My dd once said that it appeared that everyone who had left her vocational school seemed far more healthier and happier than when they had been there. Maybe 🤔 being assessed out of a particular school / environment that demands perfection is a lucky escape. So sadly painful at the time but for the best in the long term. Dd and I talked the other day about how she may have looked now if it wasn’t for ballet. But you can’t undo the past but hope that others will be supported better in the future with their training. 
 

I agree with you we have had a lucky escape.  I feel for the ones who are staying because of the intense pressure they will feel over the next two years.  They have also now put on the acceptance form that you sign to stay for the next stage that it is ‘subject to progress and/or injury’  Does that mean they can ‘assess out’ in year 10!  How catastrophic would that be for their education. 
Since we have walked away from the establishment in question I have a happy young lady who is enjoying ballet for the first time in a long long time!!

[sunrise81]

31 minutes ago, Babyballerina said:

I agree with you we have had a lucky escape.  I feel for the ones who are staying because of the intense pressure they will feel over the next two years.  They have also now put on the acceptance form that you sign to stay for the next stage that it is ‘subject to progress and/or injury’  Does that mean they can ‘assess out’ in year 10!  How catastrophic would that be for their education. 
Since we have walked away from the establishment in question I have a happy young lady who is enjoying ballet for the first time in a long long time!!

That does sound they have the option of assessing you out if they want! In which case, they are incredibly harsh (being polite here!), as these kids are halfway through their GCSEs!!!!! It would be unlikely that another vocational school woukd take them at that point too?

[Balletmummy18]

19 hours ago, valentina said:

Being assessed out, and all that means, both negatively and positively, is just one dimension. The stress and pressure are only just beginning for those staying on. Overseas students being taken in in yr 10, quickly becoming favourites due to their much advanced ability, do not necessarily make it to Upper School and even if they do, can find themselves falling out of favour and being shunned for the new student just beginning. Just because you are in Upper School does not mean ( whoever you are and wherever you came from) that you are free from a particularly nasty and underhand, verbal and emotional abuse which can leave you broken and in tatters. This can be sustained for a very long period of time and lead to students suffering mentally and physically. This shunning process is often done in the cruelest and subtlest of ways ( so there's little movement for complaint) and leaves perfectly able students (a fact backed by other professional teachers) feeling completely broken and that they should give up thinking of a career in Ballet. All this can happen in lower school too of course, but there's a general sense that once you reach Upper School, you've made it. Hope this dispels that myth.

This Definitely happened with my dd in yr 7 etc at WL -and yep very very glad she escaped by ‘ failing ‘ to get into upper school to a far more nurturing environment in ENBS where she loves again to dance and has a chance to heal the long term damage . It’s funny lots of people used to tell me that her experience would toughen her up for the ‘real world of ballet ‘- suffice to say I cannot wait until she leaves the ballet  world …. 

[Neverdancedjustamum]

18 hours ago, valentina said:

My advice is to find yourself an incredible couple of teachers who will nurture and work as a mature partnership with your son or daughter daughter at the very highest level. Giving them as much as they give. And with mutual respect at the heart of everything. It's perfectly possible to do but not at all easy. There are lots of wonderful teachers out there who can replicate that training with lots of planning to add in pas de deux, Pilates, Contemporary, Strength and Conditioning etc. but you will need money, and pots of it! 
Its a gamble... and you may be one of the lucky ones who incurs no issues at school. You may sail through and have a very rewarding experience as many do. The training is incredibly tough but amazing if you can cope and are lucky to be seen positively by the teacher.

I am all for this 100%. I must add as well that when looking for teachers/coaches/schools outside full time vocational school, be extremely wary of those that advertise too much on social media and post the same students over and over again. This rings warning bells for me immediately. Over the years I’ve found out that the happiest students I’ve met are taught by teachers who don’t seek credit, who are willing to work hand in hand with other teachers, and who have the student’s best interests at heart. These are the same teachers who you’d have to look harder for as they’re barely in the public domain. These teachers I find are those who actually have brilliant track records of successful students and yet they don’t advertise it. They are willing to work towards long-term goals, are able to tell whether the ballet dream is actually the student’s and not the parents, don’t seek immediate successes for the purposes of social media advertisement, and are brilliant at adapting to students’ different learning styles and personalities. These are also the teachers who don’t seem to have favourites as such. You’ll have to “research” these teachers more as they’re not out there as much but they are worth it. 

Edited July 3, 2022 by Neverdancedjustamum