Those dancers who don't make it after ballet school into ballet companies?

[sybarite2015@]

As we all know, from each graduating class a certain number X of the students from a ballet school will get contracts to join a ballet company as a professional dancer. My question is what do those who do not get a dance company job do? I'm genuinely curious...

 

 

[bangorballetboy]

They do something else.

[Jan McNulty]

Not everyone who graduates actually wants to join a professional ballet company.

 

I've heard of people going to university, going on to teach dance, go and work in an office...

 

Dance tends to be a short career and I've known retired dancers who have gone on to become doctors, midwives, civil servants, personal trainers, yoga teachers, IT professionals as well as going into teaching dance or becoming ballet staff/coaches at companies.

 

They are just like the rest of us really!  (Not that I ever had any dance training but I did not expect to spend the bulk of my career as an IT practitioner in a government department.)

[trog]

A chap who started lessons at a ballet school I went to, and later spent time with several professional companies, does modelling between dance projects. I've seen him in a few catalogues.

[Anna C]

Out of all the many dancers my daughter’s age who she knew from Associates/Summer Schools/full-time training, only one or two are still paid ballet dancers.  Most of the others went to university or got jobs in unrelated occupations.  A couple trained as Dance Teachers, one is studying sports science and nutrition.  

 

We often talk over in Doing Dance about the many desirable and transferable skills serious ballet students and dancers have, regardless of when and why they stopped training, and how their time in ballet is never a waste.  

[Naomi M]

I have a friend who has competed in Prix de Lausanne, graduated a ballet school in East Europe, but quit ballet, went to university and became a cabin attendant in an airline, and since then had only danced a couple of ballet classes a week as a hobby.

 

That is a common story. But what was surprising was that, after several years on board and travelling everywhere, she visited many theatres and opera houses throughout the world and watched ballet performances, and regained her love to ballet, started to purse ballet seriously again. And then the pandemic came and many flights were cancelled so she had time to polish her technique.

 

She took a try at the audition for National Ballet of Japan last year, and got a contract as a corps de ballet dancer in the company. In the first program of the season (Swan Lake), she got a soloist role. It was great to see her on stage as a longtime friend and she danced incredibly well, and her story was featured in newspapers and TV programs. So even if you once quit ballet, there might be chances to come back and become a professional dancer. 

[Jan McNulty]

43 minutes ago, Naomi M said:

I have a friend who has competed in Prix de Lausanne, graduated a ballet school in East Europe, but quit ballet, went to university and became a cabin attendant in an airline, and since then had only danced a couple of ballet classes a week as a hobby.

 

 

That's wonderful Naomi.

[Sabine0308]

Wonderful true Story, @Naomi M❤

 I don't know how this is handled in other schools, but Berlin Ballet School students leave with a Bachelor of Arts degree, so even when they don get a contract, they can begin studies at University or get a qualified job.

[sybarite2015@]

Thanks for the responses everyone but this leaves me with one question...

 

Presumably - and let's take the Vaganova Academy as an example -- all those 10 year old girls and boys who enrol and get accepted into its ballet programme do so because they want to become professional dancers, ideally principals right? They must do to spend so many years at the limits of human physical accomplishment willingly so mustn't it be a really big disappointment if they manage to successfully graduate but not get professional ballet contracts with the Bolshoi/Mariinksy etc? (Since those who were not so good/talented/determined get weeded out by the course over the years or drop out?) 

 

Or am I missing something here? For example, PhDs have about only a 50% completion rate -- I know from personal experience as I was in the 50% that dropped out after some years! -- but  if I had completed it (equivalent to graduating from the Vaganova in our example) I would have been even more disappointed if I then couldn't have gotten a job in academia.

 

Or is the Vaganova not a good example as all their graduates get jobs in ballet?

I'd love to read any books by any such ballet graduates who didn't get a role in a professional ballet company (if they wanted it). 

 

 

[Drdee]

One that comes to

mind is Chloe Bayliss - she had been trained by Marie Walton Mahon in Australia. She’s an actor now but pursued ballet to a professional standard and stepped away due to a health condition. Her book is ‘En Pointe’ I think her audience might be aspiring dancers -https://www.amazon.co.uk/En-Pointe-Chloe-Bayliss-ebook/dp/B07T3H6BPF

 

[Jan McNulty]

I think it should be borne in mind that many more students graduate than there are jobs available in ballet companies.  This was the case even pre-pandemic and the situation is probably worse now.

[rowan]

Also worth  remembering that many/some dancers who do get contracts, even in well-established companies with good conditions and pay, decide to stop dancing after quite a short time. I know of several who chose to stop after just one or two years of dancing professionally. 

[Jan McNulty]

8 hours ago, rowan said:

Also worth  remembering that many/some dancers who do get contracts, even in well-established companies with good conditions and pay, decide to stop dancing after quite a short time. I know of several who chose to stop after just one or two years of dancing professionally. 

 

I remember David Nixon saying once at a Friends talk that the leap between a school and company is huge and some people can't cope with the degree of change in lifestyle.

 

A gentleman I worked with a long time ago was a talented footballer and, as a teenager, he was offered a contract with a lower division team.  He lasted a couple of months before he left because he just did not enjoy the professional lifestyle.

[Anna C]

11 hours ago, sybarite2015@ said:

Presumably - and let's take the Vaganova Academy as an example -- all those 10 year old girls and boys who enrol and get accepted into its ballet programme do so because they want to become professional dancers, ideally principals right? They must do to spend so many years at the limits of human physical accomplishment willingly so mustn't it be a really big disappointment if they manage to successfully graduate but not get professional ballet contracts with the Bolshoi/Mariinksy etc? (Since those who were not so good/talented/determined get weeded out by the course over the years or drop out?) 

 

It’s not really a case of being “weeded out by the course” because a student isn’t good/talented/determined enough; children are assessed out for other reasons, including physique (something that’s not in their control), and struggling to retain their technique during puberty (common, and can usually be worked through with good, patient teaching).  Some might drop out through extreme homesickness, or because they no longer want to dance as a career.  Some are there because it’s their parents’ dream, not the child’s.  They might make it through Lower School training (11-16) but not get accepted into Upper School, or they might make it to Upper School but be assessed out after a year or two when the school brings in International students and competition winners instead.  

 

Of course it’s a really big disappointment when you’ve been working towards something since a very young age - sometimes the parent is more disappointed if they’ve been the driving force behind the scenes - which is why I always suggest that any ballet student needs a “Plan B”, usually in the form of academics like a good set of GCSEs in facilitating subjects.  The chances of any 11 year old making it through 5 years of lower school, 3 years of upper school, and into a ballet company with a paid contract are frighteningly slim, especially in the UK post-Brexit.

 

Six years after having to leave full-time ballet training due to a serious back injury, my daughter still feels sad sometimes about having to stop; it was a grieving process and a difficult journey for her, both physically and emotionally.  But most dancers are very resilient, and with the right help and support, they find a new path.  

[Kate_N]

12 hours ago, sybarite2015@ said:

but  if I had completed it (equivalent to graduating from the Vaganova in our example) I would have been even more disappointed if I then couldn't have gotten a job in academia.

 

It is at least as difficult in academia as in ballet to secure a permanent post. The two vocations are similar in many ways.  
 

But a better question or comparator would be to look at the graduates from drama conservatoires such as RADA or LAMDA or Guildhall, and so on. Only one or two graduates of each cohort go on to get regular work as actors. And it’s much harder for women.

 

Or what about all the young people who take up a specific sport with serious intent? Not all talented, highly trained young athletes get to the Olympics.

 

Ballet is not unusual in terms of the many highly trained and talented young people with ambition, but who - for a variety of reasons, not all to do with the number of contracts available - don’t go n to make a living from dancing in a classical ballet company.

[rowan]

12 hours ago, sybarite2015@ said:

Or is the Vaganova not a good example as all their graduates get jobs in ballet?

 
Even with famed schools such as this, I know graduates from top schools who went straight into jobs in major national companies but still quit dancing relatively quickly. It’s been quite an eye-opener to me.

[Lifeafterballet]

I too was curious about this. Even having two children in the vocational ballet system I wasn’t sure where those who weren’t celebrated on their dream contract at graduation went. It just wasn’t talked about. They just disappeared quietly. Not mentioned on published graduate destination lists or congratulated on their success in a non ballet field.
Hence why I started the thread “Life after ballet” on the Doing Dance page. My son is a professional ballet dancer and my daughter also gained a ballet contract on graduation but chose a different path for a variety of reasons and I wanted other parents and students to share their experiences and celebrate their success 🎉 not just leave by the back door as if they had in someway failed 😞 

[Flower]

I know a man who trained at vocational school from age 11. He did get a place in a major foreign company but was disgusted by the lifestyle that it seemed to revolve around. (Drugs etc). He left dance and is now a priest. 

[FionaM]

I imagine the Vaganova and Moscow Academy graduates mostly do get jobs as there are so many companies in Russia with large corps de ballet … Stanislavsky, Mikhailovsky, Eifman, Jacobson … and those are just the next 4 most eminent ones in Moscow and St Petersburg after Bolshoi and Mariinsky … there are others, plus the many regional companies.  Probably graduates of lesser schools in Russia don’t? 
 

I have a friend who went through vocational ballet school in Cape Town who was given lead roles in school productions, and  qualified and participated in the Prix de Lausanne.  She auditioned widely in South Africa and didn’t get offered any positions.  Possibly she was too tall.  Fortunately (because she was tall and beautiful) she was also a model, so could fall back on that and has since had a hugely varied career, but not as a dancer.  She runs a gardening services company now.

[Kate_N]

And of course, the broader question is: how many people in the general population end up doing what they dreamed of doing when they were 11? Or what they trained for at school? or what they studied at university?

[Jan McNulty]

4 minutes ago, Kate_N said:

And of course, the broader question is: how many people in the general population end up doing what they dreamed of doing when they were 11? Or what they trained for at school? or what they studied at university?

 

Exactly Kate.

 

I never imagined I would end up working in a government department  and enjoying my working life there for about 98% of that time.  Of course there are other careers I may think I would have enjoyed but whether I would have enjoyed the reality of them is another matter.

[alison]

1 hour ago, Kate_N said:

And of course, the broader question is: how many people in the general population end up doing what they dreamed of doing when they were 11? Or what they trained for at school? or what they studied at university?

 

Quite.  I went on a post-graduate vocational course many years ago now: of probably about 15 students I only know of 3 who are still doing what they trained for. 

[Scheherezade]

8 hours ago, Kate_N said:

And of course, the broader question is: how many people in the general population end up doing what they dreamed of doing when they were 11? Or what they trained for at school? or what they studied at university?

 

And those who do may feel that they would have done things differently given the chance.

[Fonty]

On 16/02/2022 at 08:58, Anna C said:

Six years after having to leave full-time ballet training due to a serious back injury, my daughter still feels sad sometimes about having to stop; it was a grieving process and a difficult journey for her, both physically and emotionally.  But most dancers are very resilient, and with the right help and support, they find a new path.  

 

I think this makes an extremely important point.  Children get the ballet bug very young, and having had that dream for as long as they can remember, it is an enormous shock to realise that they won't be able to achieve it.  It is one thing to decide not to continue, and to choose a different path.  It is quite another to be effectively weeded out.

 

Parents, relatives, friends have to understand that it really is a grieving process for those who have no choice in the matter.  Sympathetic support is vital.  I do know several people who were asked to leave vocational school, and some of them suffered greatly.  Anorexia, nervous breakdown, mental issues.....they came through it eventually, and went on to have successful careers, but it certainly wasn't easy for them.  

[DancePhysioUK]

I think the most amazing thing about ballet/dance training is that the transferable skills are unmatched. The grit determination, the endless schedule, the hard work and the drive. I strongly think, although I may be bias, that dancers make great employees for all kinds of different jobs. I graduated from a ballet school a few years back and I know only of 3 of my cohort that are still dancing professionally. The others? primary school teachers, personal trainers, pilates instructors, general office jobs etc. etc. 

 

It will always be gut wrenching leaving a passion behind but there's so much more out there. Episode one of The Pre-Pointe Podcast talks about how young dancers should have an identity outside of dance to build up their character and self worth away from dancing when the inevitable happens, whether it be through injury (mental and physical) or retirement.

 

For me personally dance will always be a part of my life even now I do not identify as a 'dancer'. Working in that environment is a bug I don't think I will ever shake but, there are so many other ways you can do that too. I work now as a physiotherapist for professional performers (as well as the general public) in London and I am just as passionate about what I do now as when I was in ballet training. 

[Jan McNulty]

4 minutes ago, DancePhysioUK said:

I think the most amazing thing

 

Hello DancePhysioUK and welcome to the Forum!

[TSR101]

I saw this randomly on he RB website tonight and thought it was interesting given the discussion. 

 

"For nearly 10 consecutive years, 100% of graduating students have secured a contract with a national or international ballet company and more than 70% of members of The Royal Ballet and Birmingham Royal Ballet are alumni of The Royal Ballet School."

 

I imagine the top schools particularly the Russians schools are the same in their success rate.

 

I do think he churn will be quite high once you join the company though - for the corps the hours are relentless and the pay limited, whilst progression through the ranks often comes quite quickly to those picked out - yet they are so integral for the ballet. 

[Pas de Quatre]

Sadly, this is a bit of a fudge as I understood that historically only those RBS students who secured a contract were allowed to graduate. Now we have the new scheme where 2nd year students have to re-audition for the third year of their degree course. Central used to do this too, does anyone know if this is still the case? This leaves students in an impossible position, how can they finish their degree, and they can't start a new degree course either as they have used two years of funding out of a permitted four.

[taxi4ballet]

It is not unknown for students at one or two establishments to - (how can I put this?) - er... 'disappear' at the end of 2nd year. Their 3rd year places are miraculously filled by other dancers, already fully trained elsewhere and practically company-ready, who arrive for a final polish and the name of the school on their cv.

 

Not that I'm a cynic or anything.

[Anna C]

15 hours ago, Pas de Quatre said:

Sadly, this is a bit of a fudge as I understood that historically only those RBS students who secured a contract were allowed to graduate. Now we have the new scheme where 2nd year students have to re-audition for the third year of their degree course. Central used to do this too, does anyone know if this is still the case? This leaves students in an impossible position, how can they finish their degree, and they can't start a new degree course either as they have used two years of funding out of a permitted four.

 

If a student finishes second year with a Foundation Degree, it’s my understanding that they can get student finance for a third, “top up” year, so they can complete their BA.  If they leave on medical grounds then - with sufficient proof from medical professionals, and in a certain timeframe (first year, maybe, but don’t quote me on that), SFE can re-finance the student under “exceptional circumstances” so they can start a different course.  

 

I still disagree with having to reaudition for 3rd Year/6.3, but unfortunately it seems to be a fairly common occurrence in UK schools.

[Quintus]

Our local venue, Dance East, hosts some excellent small touring contemporary dance and dance theatre companies. Whenever I look at these companies' websites, there's a handful of their artists who list the well known ballet schools in their profiles.  At what stage they went from ballet to these other forms, and whether it was through choice or from diminishing options is not clear, but this seems to be a well trodden path.