Ballet is "pay to play"?

[Alice Shortcake]

From a Bored Panda thread entitled "People Share What Careers Look Glamorous From The Outside But End Up Being A Nightmare":

 

"Ballet dancer

 

Parents spend tens of thousands (or more) on training. They give up their entire teen years and schooling (most elite ballet dancers are homeschooled and a large percentage move away from home for training in high school).

Most dancers you see on stage in a ballet are paying to be there. The bottom rungs of ballet companies are pay to play. Then when you have paid to dance a few years you might be able to get a position that pays you with a dozen pairs of pointe shoes and a stipend for performances. Then maybe you'll be promoted to the bottom level where you get paid 20K a year and have no health insurance. All while putting your body through major torture."

 

https://www.boredpanda.com

 

Ye gods! In which ballet companies do dancers pay to play?

[Jan McNulty]

I think their may be some inaccuracies there Alice - certainly as far as the UK is concerned.  The only thing I could think is that if people are doing pre-professional (post voc. school grad) courses that they pay for they can be used in performances by ballet companies.

 

This feature looks as though it is US-based and I don't know what the situation is there.

 

I don't know if it is still the case but in most Japanese dance companies the ladies were not paid.  I don't know if they had to pay to be a company member though.

[zxDaveM]

if the lower ranks had to start repaying their parents for the costs of all the lessons, transport to/from classes, summer courses, pointe shoes, leotards, tutus and outfits and practice clothes of all sorts, then later auditions etc - it might almost become pay-to-play. And they are the successful ones (in comparison!).

Just a thought...

[Ian Macmillan]

Wouldn't Equity have something to say about that if it was happening in the UK?  

[Anna C]

I’m not sure I’m remembering correctly, but in the past, have some international dancers been “sponsored” while at RBS or in the Company? 

[Jeannette]

6 hours ago, Jan McNulty said:

.....

 

I don't know if it is still the case but in most Japanese dance companies the ladies were not paid.  I don't know if they had to pay to be a company member though.

I believe that that's still the case in Japan, Jan. What's more, most corps ladies are expected to "sell tickets" meaning that they're allotted a number of tickets and family/friends/associates pay...with the understanding that the tickets must be sold for the lady to  keep her place in the company. The big exception, I've been told. is the National Ballet (formerly "New National Theatre Ballet"). I sincerely hope that that practice has changed.

[Ivy Lin]

I know at American Ballet Theatre the ability to get a big sponsor is considered paramount for promotion. 

[NJH]

the piece appears to be US centric 

the waters are muddied by the  relatively small   amateur adult performance scene in the UK  and as Jan rightly points out  some of the  'graduate programmes' offered  by  major companies which appear to be pay to play  or  only offering peorformance fees  and not  a salary / wage 

[Pas de Quatre]

This article does sound as if it is from USA. e.g. health insurance worries, as in UK although you can choose private health insurance, everyone is covered by NHS. I find it shocking that even major companies such as New York City Ballet and American Ballet Theatre do not have full year contracts for dancers of any rank. They are laid off for several weeks over the summer and have to find work either teaching in Summer Intensives, or waiting tables etc.

 

Getting paid work here in UK as a classical dancer does seem to be diluted by graduate training schemes and short term contracts. Unfortunately what happens in USA tends to come over here eveuntually, but it think there will always be a "core" (pun unintended) of permanent dancers in each company.

[NJH]

4 hours ago, Pas de Quatre said:

This article does sound as if it is from USA. e.g. health insurance worries, as in UK although you can choose private health insurance, everyone is covered by NHS. I find it shocking that even major companies such as New York City Ballet and American Ballet Theatre do not have full year contracts for dancers of any rank. They are laid off for several weeks over the summer and have to find work either teaching in Summer Intensives, or waiting tables etc.

 

Getting paid work here in UK as a classical dancer does seem to be diluted by graduate training schemes and short term contracts. Unfortunately what happens in USA tends to come over here eveuntually, but it think there will always be a "core" (pun unintended) of permanent dancers in each company.

the graduate  scheme thing seems to be a bit of a curates egg  

short term contracts   is , unfortunately going to be a reality  without  massive increases in funding for small to medium companies  and  even more fundign for the big companies to keep their 'extended companies'  on when there isn't the  work ( e.g. the Albert Hall seasons etc)  - but if you speak to some of the elders  -  this  was  the pattern in the past  a lot more and  teaching  / 'commercial'  dance work  and the like were  fairly typical activities between lassicla contracts

there is the  whole aspect  of the  differing attitudes to  employment contracts in the Uk even  outwith the EU  vs the US  

[Fiz]

It also showed up on Buzzfeed but someone shot it down in flames.

[LACAD]

This is definitely more of a stateside issue, and I think more specifically this is about second/junior companies (they mention moving onto the bottom rank).

 

Junior and second companies have a reputation for abysmal pay and I wouldn’t be shocked if some even asked for money. I’m fact according to a Dance Spirit article from 2013; “Sometimes. You might get a salary that’s enough to live on. You might get a weekly stipend. You might be paid per performance. But at some organizations, the second company is a pre-professional program, rather than a paying gig. In that case, you might actually have to pay tuition.”

 

 

Edited July 3, 2021 by LACAD

[Ivy Lin]

8 hours ago, Pas de Quatre said:

This article does sound as if it is from USA. e.g. health insurance worries, as in UK although you can choose private health insurance, everyone is covered by NHS. I find it shocking that even major companies such as New York City Ballet and American Ballet Theatre do not have full year contracts for dancers of any rank. They are laid off for several weeks over the summer and have to find work either teaching in Summer Intensives, or waiting tables etc.

 

Getting paid work here in UK as a classical dancer does seem to be diluted by graduate training schemes and short term contracts. Unfortunately what happens in USA tends to come over here eveuntually, but it think there will always be a "core" (pun unintended) of permanent dancers in each company.

 

NYCB does have year long contracts for dancers but not (I believe) for apprentices.

[Ballet2101]

This is definitely a US article.  I assume they are referring to the grey area between Pre-Pro and Company. There are many programs that offer Trainee positions in the U.S., but these are not company trainee programs, they are part of the Pre-professional school and not necessarily a path to the company.  One large program in the US calls 12 year olds "Trainees".  These programs carry tuition as almost every pre-pro program does in the US.  The US does not have vocational schools.  All of the ballet training is paid via tuition in a pre-professional program and the majority of these programs do not have academics which is an additional cost.

The real trainee/apprenticeship programs are at the bottom of the Company hierarchy and usually have a stipend or housing allowance, although not a full salary.  These are the more attractive programs although the dancer carries the same "title" as the dancer in the upper levels of a Pre-pro program. There usually isn't a tuition in these programs, and some dancers are paid as they will occasionally perform with the main company.

[taxi4ballet]

23 hours ago, Alice Shortcake said:

From a Bored Panda thread entitled "People Share What Careers Look Glamorous From The Outside But End Up Being A Nightmare":

 

"Ballet dancer

 

Parents spend tens of thousands (or more) on training. They give up their entire teen years and schooling (most elite ballet dancers are homeschooled and a large percentage move away from home for training in high school).

Most dancers you see on stage in a ballet are paying to be there. The bottom rungs of ballet companies are pay to play. Then when you have paid to dance a few years you might be able to get a position that pays you with a dozen pairs of pointe shoes and a stipend for performances. Then maybe you'll be promoted to the bottom level where you get paid 20K a year and have no health insurance. All while putting your body through major torture."

 

https://www.boredpanda.com

 

Ye gods! In which ballet companies do dancers pay to play?

This is definitely not describing anything that goes on in the UK. The biggest clue is in the words 'high school'. 

 

[Pas de Quatre]

15 hours ago, Ivy Lin said:

 

NYCB does have year long contracts for dancers but not (I believe) for apprentices.

Have they gone up to 52 paid weeks, great if they have. Some AGMA (union) companies guarantee 38 paid weeks out of 40, and this is the top end of the range. Statutory 4 weeks paid holiday, maternity leave etc don't exist as far as I know. Would be happy to hear that things have improved. 

[Jeannette]

Curious - Are there theatrical unions in Japan, covering ballet and opera performers, such as AGMA in the US? If so, I wonder how pro companies are allowed to force corps women (not men) to sell tickets in order to work, if that’s still the case? I’d love to be corrected, if things have changed in the last 10 years.

 

The “pay to play” article at the top of this thread may be about the U.S. but it raises questions on compensation of dancers - particularly female corps - elsewhere.

[Ivy Lin]

5 hours ago, Jeannette said:

Curious - Are there theatrical unions in Japan, covering ballet and opera performers, such as AGMA in the US? If so, I wonder how pro companies are allowed to force corps women (not men) to sell tickets in order to work, if that’s still the case? I’d love to be corrected, if things have changed in the last 10 years.

 

The “pay to play” article at the top of this thread may be about the U.S. but it raises questions on compensation of dancers - particularly female corps - elsewhere.

 

Another thing is that I read Petipa's biography and they talk about dancers sending him large, expensive gifts for roles. Mathilde Kschessinskaya even called him out for this publicly. I don't know if this still exists formally but I know that in many companies parents' donations are considered super-important for promotion.

[Jan McNulty]

1 hour ago, Ivy Lin said:

 

Another thing is that I read Petipa's biography and they talk about dancers sending him large, expensive gifts for roles. Mathilde Kschessinskaya even called him out for this publicly. I don't know if this still exists formally but I know that in many companies parents' donations are considered super-important for promotion.

 

Is this in America Ivy?

[Ivy Lin]

1 hour ago, Jan McNulty said:

 

Is this in America Ivy?

 

Yeah it is. 

As I said, it's not officially "pay to play." But parent's donations (as well as the ability to pull in a corporate or private sponsor) are considered important for promotions in American companies. It differs by company but it's a thing.

[alison]

That would explain a lot.

 

I suppose it's too naive to hope that promotions would be based on, well, ability, talent and so on

[Ivy Lin]

4 hours ago, alison said:

That would explain a lot.

 

I suppose it's too naive to hope that promotions would be based on, well, ability, talent and so on

 

The promotions that I know of where the parents were also donors had plenty of talent and deserved to be promoted. It's just that they also had parents who donated sums of money. 

The other kind of "pay for play" is more insidious: many companies do not provide private coaching for a big role debut so dancers have to hire coaches to help them. The private coaching sessions cost a lot of money and not everyone can afford it. 

[FionaM]

Joy Womack had been public in the past about the ‘pay to promote’ culture in Russia.  

[maryrosesatonapin]

On 03/07/2021 at 17:22, taxi4ballet said:

This is definitely not describing anything that goes on in the UK. The biggest clue is in the words 'high school'. 

 

I agree that it's likely to be an American article, but you do get high schools in Scotland - which is currently part of the UK although possibly not for much longer

[Ingrid]

22 hours ago, FionaE said:

Joy Womack had been public in the past about the ‘pay to promote’ culture in Russia.  

Joy has certainly talked about it but more in the sense “that’s the reason I wasn’t the star I thought I would be in Russian soil” which ends up tainting her arguments to be honest. 

[fromthebalcony]

Many varying opinions here. In the US, it is true that parents can pay large sums of money for training and that dancers in serious training give up many normal teen activities, which is probably the case for anyone pursuing an activity at an elite level. As far as “pay to play,” this does not happen in AGMA companies. Most larger companies have either a second company, apprentices, or both. They receive a salary, although in larger cities it is not always a livable wage. It varies with each company. It is also true that many companies do not have full year salaries. Dancers find other work and/or collect unemployment. However, dancers in large AGMA companies make a fairly good living especially as they go up the ranks. In smaller companies, apprentices and second company members may only be paid per performance. As far as sponsors and promotions, I don’t believe that sponsors necessarily guarantee promotion. I know of dancers who are sponsored and they have remained in lower ranks for years. And to touch on parents donating money, yes, this does happen, unfortunately. Finally, it was mentioned about dancers who are able to pay for private coaching. This is disconcerting ... one, because the company should be providing the coaching necessary for roles, and two, it gives an unfair advantage to those who are able to pay for the exorbitant coaching fees charged in large cities.  

[Ivy Lin]

11 hours ago, fromthebalcony said:

Many varying opinions here. In the US, it is true that parents can pay large sums of money for training and that dancers in serious training give up many normal teen activities, which is probably the case for anyone pursuing an activity at an elite level. As far as “pay to play,” this does not happen in AGMA companies. Most larger companies have either a second company, apprentices, or both. They receive a salary, although in larger cities it is not always a livable wage. It varies with each company. It is also true that many companies do not have full year salaries. Dancers find other work and/or collect unemployment. However, dancers in large AGMA companies make a fairly good living especially as they go up the ranks. In smaller companies, apprentices and second company members may only be paid per performance. As far as sponsors and promotions, I don’t believe that sponsors necessarily guarantee promotion. I know of dancers who are sponsored and they have remained in lower ranks for years. And to touch on parents donating money, yes, this does happen, unfortunately. Finally, it was mentioned about dancers who are able to pay for private coaching. This is disconcerting ... one, because the company should be providing the coaching necessary for roles, and two, it gives an unfair advantage to those who are able to pay for the exorbitant coaching fees charged in large cities.  

 

At American Ballet Theatre the "pay for private coaching" thing is openly talked about amongst the dancers. As is the parity between dancers who can pay for the expensive private coaching and the dancers who can't. 

 

As I said, this sort of thing is very insidious because on the surface there's nothing shady happening, but in reality it means that a dancer from a poorer family might not be able to get proper coaching before her big debut.

[fromthebalcony]

9 hours ago, Ivy Lin said:

 

At American Ballet Theatre the "pay for private coaching" thing is openly talked about amongst the dancers. As is the parity between dancers who can pay for the expensive private coaching and the dancers who can't. 

 

As I said, this sort of thing is very insidious because on the surface there's nothing shady happening, but in reality it means that a dancer from a poorer family might not be able to get proper coaching before her big debut.

Yes, it is most obvious at ABT and does not happen quite as much elsewhere (as far as I can tell.) And, for the most part, dancers are on their own without family help once they get hired into a company. So those who are receiving financial help from their families - well, that certainly is an advantage.

[Ivy Lin]

11 hours ago, fromthebalcony said:

Yes, it is most obvious at ABT and does not happen quite as much elsewhere (as far as I can tell.) And, for the most part, dancers are on their own without family help once they get hired into a company. So those who are receiving financial help from their families - well, that certainly is an advantage.

 

I think it's a huge issue at ABT. In other companies I'm not sure, but at ABT (which is a major company), dancers talk openly about how they'll pay for private coaching for a role before it's even cast, so they can say "I was already coached and know the role." It really is awful how it ends up being people essentially paying to learn roles. 

[Kate_N]

I think we need to be very careful about accepting gossip & hearsay. It makes me uncomfortable to treat speculation as if it were true. We also need to remember the cultural differences between the UK and the USA ("Two countries divide by a common language" G. B. Shaw): if you live in a culture which socialises you into believing that if you want something enough, you can achieve it, ballet (and similar athletic & artistic pursuits) can be a harsh taskmistress. Maybe private coaching (and this is speculation!) is a cultural adaptation in the US to dealing with balancing ambition against talent.

[Goldenlily17]

There is an element of pay to play in British ballet, certainly. For example, the enormous hourly sums coaches (former dancers) demand which lure parents into thinking that their DD or DS may have a certain advantage over others who can’t afford those coaches. 
 

With regard to pay for performances, the Equity minimum is not enough to cover rent and living costs, so it is advantageous if dancers have a base in London or whichever major city the company is based in.  Taking into account the long daily hours from class to the end of perhaps a second daily performance, on an hourly basis corps dancers are paid less than the people who clean the theatre. It is pretty difficult to swallow when you consider how highly skilled those dancers are and that they are the  people the audience pays to see. Ballet is probably the lowest paid highly-skilled profession in the world unless you are an artistic director in which case you can command a six figure salary. The pay differential between those at the top and those at the bottom proves that the money could be found to pay dancers a decent living wage. I don’t think Equity is at all focused on pay for ballet dancers, whether under company contract or freelance. News bulletins reveal that its attention is almost entirely consumed by diversity issues. 
Private income makes a big difference to whether this kind of life is sustainable. Freelancers can’t possibly afford the shoes, classes etc which are needed to support their careers. 

[Goldenlily17]

On 11/07/2021 at 15:02, fromthebalcony said:

Many varying opinions here. In the US, it is true that parents can pay large sums of money for training and that dancers in serious training give up many normal teen activities, which is probably the case for anyone pursuing an activity at an elite level. As far as “pay to play,” this does not happen in AGMA companies. Most larger companies have either a second company, apprentices, or both. They receive a salary, although in larger cities it is not always a livable wage. It varies with each company. It is also true that many companies do not have full year salaries. Dancers find other work and/or collect unemployment. However, dancers in large AGMA companies make a fairly good living especially as they go up the ranks. In smaller companies, apprentices and second company members may only be paid per performance. As far as sponsors and promotions, I don’t believe that sponsors necessarily guarantee promotion. I know of dancers who are sponsored and they have remained in lower ranks for years. And to touch on parents donating money, yes, this does happen, unfortunately. Finally, it was mentioned about dancers who are able to pay for private coaching. This is disconcerting ... one, because the company should be providing the coaching necessary for roles, and two, it gives an unfair advantage to those who are able to pay for the exorbitant coaching fees charged in large cities.  

Not all US companies pay 2nd company dancers. Of those that do some only pay a per diem, around $400 per month. That doesn’t cover the rent.

[fromthebalcony]

25 minutes ago, Goldenlily17 said:

Not all US companies pay 2nd company dancers. Of those that do some only pay a per diem, around $400 per month. That doesn’t cover the rent.

You are right. Many of the smaller companies do not pay their 2nd company dancers. As I stated, most LARGER companies (which are usually AGMA companies) that have a second company pay a salary. "In smaller companies, apprentices and second company members may only be paid per performance."