Audience Behaviour

[Colman]

We've taken a (very tall) six year old dancer to the ROH, stalls for the 2014 Ashton mixed bill, and Manon in the cheap seats the next night, but we knew he'd sit through it quietly enough so long as he got ice cream at the break - and he's still delighted that he saw Acosta dance live and I didn't. 

 

On the other hand I wouldn't contemplate taking his now similarly aged brother for a few years yet - he doesn't do transfixed, he chatters excitedly  and squirms and gets involved in miming dancers or singing along: we're careful not to take him to cinema showings that are going to have long slow bits! You've got to know your child's limits and work within them - though a disturbing number of people don't see why they should consider other peoples' feelings when it comes to their childrens' behaviour in public spaces. Politeness is so old fashioned.

[Moomin]

Yes ROH says under 5s will not be permitted entry and I've never seen a younger child than that when I've been there. They also give an age guideline which is generally at least 7.

[Colman]

And don't get me started about the family shows where the kid behind yours starts kicking their seat/head making it impossible for your kids to behave.

[LinMM]

Unfortunately I agree with Colman that it does seem parents consider other people less and less these days with regards to their children's behaviour in public.....as a general rule that is. It seems generally behaving as if they are in their sitting room at home has become more the norm than the exception.

How annoying Capybara to have the performance marred in this way and the parents seemingly oblivious.

I had a terrible experience on a train just before Christmas which I might put in room 101 rather than here but when I took action the father just said" how dare you presume to know my child better than me"

 

The lady ( who may or may not have had cancer) was also in my view using a form of blackmail.....I've got Cancer so anything goes sort of attitude.

Most people I've known who have had Cancer .....even in the throes of chemotherapy have never been like that.....quite the opposite often apologising when they had no need to ( eg bursting into tears suddenly) But I agree......what do you say to that its a horrible thing to say to someone

[Colman]

As Act 2 started I asked, very politely, if a lady near me could please stop talking as we were finding her commentary very distracting. She did fall silent, more or less, but at the end of the performance marched up to me and said that she supposed that when she died of cancer I would be pleased! How would my fellow Balletco-ers have responded to THAT?

 

 

I'd have been tongue tied trying not to respond with something *horrible*. 

[Jacqueline]

I suspect the woman who made the remark about dying from cancer, probably doesn't have cancer. It is a remark designed to shock and make the recipient feel bad. You had asked her, politely and not unreasonably, to stop talking during the performance. She possibly thought this cancer remark would be a clever riposte.Tempting in the heat of the moment to respond with something almost as unpleasant but why bother. She has demonstrated all you need to know about her character and you don't want to engage with her further.

I would tell her I won't dignify her remark with a response.Then turn and move away. End of exchange.

Edited January 23, 2017 by Jacqueline

[RuthE]

I suspect the woman who made the remark about dying from cancer, probably doesn't have cancer. It is a remark designed to shock and make the recipient feel bad. Tempting in the heat of the moment to respond with something almost as unpleasant but why bother. She has demonstrated all you need to know about her character and you don't want to engage with her further.

I would tell her I won't dignify her remark with a response.Then turn and move away. End of exchange.

 

It makes literally no difference to the validity of your complaint.

 

Similarly, I once had to be very blunt with a former friend about her behaviour towards me, and told her publicly that I wanted nothing further to do with her. Her response was to tell me that she had cancer.  This turned out to be true, and sadly she has since died.  I should stress that I obviously wished her no ill.  The fact remains that true or not, emotional blackmail is unacceptable (and indeed makes me even less inclined to be sympathetic towards the person than if they hadn't tried it). She had already irrevocably crossed a line, and I clearly wasn't about to change my mind about her behaviour just because she happened to tell me she was ill.

[penelopesimpson]

A difficult one this.............

 

Two adults arrive at the ballet with a small child and try to sit her in between them. But she is having none of it and spends her whole time climbing over the adults, her feet kicking the people in the adjacent seats and her arms flailing in their sightlines. She also frequently stands up on the floor and on her seat etc., thus impeding the view of the people behind.

 

I felt that she spoiled the performance for at least 5 people yet none of us said a word. Would others have stayed similarly silent?

No.

[Fonty]

It is very difficult to tell a parent that their child is disturbing you.  A lot of parents respond with a "He/she is just a child."  As if that excuses their behaviour.  Or they can become very defensive, which causes unpleasantness.  

 

I know it is sometimes hard if a child is throwing a tantrum, but there is a time and a place.  I would have every sympathy for a parent trying to control their offspring having a strop in the supermarket, while doing their weekly shop.  And no sympathy at all if I am trying to eat a meal in a restaurant, or watch something on stage in a theatre.  

[MAB]

And don't get me started about the family shows where the kid behind yours starts kicking their seat/head making it impossible for your kids to behave.

 

Absolutely, but still not as bad as seat kicking on a thirteen hour flight.

[alison]

The "babysitting" aspect also applies, I find, when you have one child who is old enough to attend performances and behave reasonably, and they have a younger sibling who isn't yet.  So you take the younger one along as well because it's the line of least resistance ...

[taxi4ballet]

The "babysitting" aspect also applies, I find, when you have one child who is old enough to attend performances and behave reasonably, and they have a younger sibling who isn't yet.  So you take the younger one along as well because it's the line of least resistance ...

You might also find that sometimes the youngster in the audience is watching a family member on the stage.

[alison]

Well, occasionally maybe, but probably not that frequently.

[Colman]

It is very difficult to tell a parent that their child is disturbing you.  A lot of parents respond with a "He/she is just a child."  As if that excuses their behaviour.  Or they can become very defensive, which causes unpleasantness.  

 

I know it is sometimes hard if a child is throwing a tantrum, but there is a time and a place.  I would have every sympathy for a parent trying to control their offspring having a strop in the supermarket, while doing their weekly shop.  And no sympathy at all if I am trying to eat a meal in a restaurant, or watch something on stage in a theatre.

 

Depends on the restaurant: if it's a hotel, well they have to eat somewhere, no matter how fancy it is.

 

And they are just kids, which is why it's up to the parents to make sure they don't put them in inappropriate settings.

[Fonty]

Depends on the restaurant: if it's a hotel, well they have to eat somewhere, no matter how fancy it is.

 

 

 

I don't see what difference it makes whether it is a hotel or not.  I realise they have to eat, but more often than not in this country I've seen children being allowed to do just about everything other than eating, to the annoyance of other people in the room.

 

 I spend a considerable amount of time abroad in Europe, and see children eating out all the time in hotels and restaurants.  The difference between there and the UK is that abroad they are expected to sit and eat, and behave themselves.  If a baby or toddler starts to cry, one of the adults will immediately take it away and proceed to do whatever is necessary to calm it down.  They learn from a very early age what is appropriate behaviour for the situation.  

 

On the other hand, last weekend I went out for lunch with friends in a pub in London, and were seated next to a party which included several children of all ages.  They spent their time hitting each other, throwing food, and screaming loudly at the tops of their voices.  It was a nightmare, and when one of our party asked them to keep the noise down, the adults shrugged and said, "They are just kids."  Eventually it got so bad I complained to one of the barmen.  He did speak to them, and they left shortly after.  Thank goodness.....

[Legseleven]

I remember spending DD's infancy ordering only salads, sandwiches or anything else that wouldn't be spoiled if I had to take her out because she was crying. No-one goes out to eat, whether in a grand restaurant or a pub or cafe, expecting to have to put up with other people's children and they shouldn't have to deal with noise or children running around. I wouldn't have tolerated that from DD when eating at home and she certainly knew what was expected of her when eating in a public place.

 

We were asked once in a pub if we were English, as we said that DD would have a small portion from the adult menu rather than something from the children's menu. I remember thinking that that was quite sad, as the staff clearly weren't used to children eating from anything other than the children's menu. (We had no objection to her eating from the children's menu, she just preferred what she had seen on the adult menu.) I do wonder whether this distinction between what adults and children are expected to be happy to eat, which isn't found on the continent, in some ways 'supports' less being expected of children when eating out?

[LinMM]

I saw a dad dealing really well in a pub last weekend with a boy of about six who was playing up.

 

When it was obvious the boy wasn't going to cooperate dad just took him outside and dealt with him for at least five mins out there before he came back in

This is really all that is required that one of the adults present deals with the ruly/rude behaviour whatever.....it doesn't have to be dramatic or anything for comparative peace to reign

I would expect some excitement and noise from an outing to a pub with several kids present .....its just when it gets unreasonable .....running around and being a danger to the waiters ....and shouting at tops of voices and so on.

 

Something strange does seem to happen when there is quite a large group of people though it's as if both no one but everyone (else but them) is in charge.

I can remember as a child being able to get away with a bit more than usual when large groups of relatives etc were visiting but hasten to add nothing as extreme as I've seen in some eating places and on trains!!

[Colman]

I'd consider "taking him outside" as part of dealing with a tantrum! (I've done my time standing outside Paris restaurants in the drizzle calming a baby in a sling.)

 

You're going to catch the first few minute or two of the tantrum anyway though.

[taxi4ballet]

A year or two ago we were in a restaurant (Mother's day possibly) and sitting near to us was a very large party of people - about 8 adults and at least a dozen small children ranging from newborns to about 7/8 years old.

 

They were the most well-behaved children I've come across in a long time.

[Harwel]

I'm very pleased to say that we have always had compliments on how well our children have behaved. I remember taking my 8 yr old boy to ROH and there were some very concerned looks from the nearby patrons - I remember being quite insulted at the time -especially as he was so fascinated by the orchestra pit before the start, so I walked him up and down a few times and talked about the instruments etc. Needless to say he sat enthralled without a peep! I did receive some nice comments but I think it's sad that good behaviour is so unexpected.

[VickyPage]

I hate to say it but my parents were forever being complimented on mine and my sister's behaviour in restaurants, museums, theatres etc when we were children. I don't remember finding it particularly difficult not to run around the room shouting, but I think on trips to the ROH and the Coli I was always told quite sternly to be extra careful and quiet. I always had a very strong sense that I was upholding some kind of 'children aren't that bad' banner and the closest I ever came to breaking with that tradition was dancing up and down the area outside the ground floor toilets in the ROH after a performance of Swan Lake. But I stopped every time I thought someone noticed! 

Edited January 24, 2017 by VickyPage

[Legseleven]

We were also complimented on DD's behaviour as a small girl at the theatre and in other public places. She is a quiet child anyway so that helped! - but we always explained to her how she was expected to behave and that if she didn't behave appropriately then she would be taken outside. I don't think it is too much to ask, even of small children, that they are expected to consider how their behaviour affects other people. If for any reason they cannot do this then I'm afraid their parents should be the ones missing out on a restaurant, theatre or concert trip rather than taking a child along if their behaviour (or lack of it) will adversely affect other people's enjoyment.

[Colman]

Absolutely, as I say, boy number two is irrepressible and there's no way he's going anywhere "adult" for a few years. Watching a movie at home with him is annoying enough!

[SwissBalletFan]

We were asked once in a pub if we were English, as we said that DD would have a small portion from the adult menu rather than something from the children's menu. I remember thinking that that was quite sad, as the staff clearly weren't used to children eating from anything other than the children's menu. ...

 

do wonder whether this distinction between what adults and children are expected to be happy to eat, which isn't found on the continent, in some ways 'supports' less being expected of children when eating out?

 

 

Where to start....

 

Children to a pub? 

 

I am sorry to be the 'burst the bubble' bad guy, but children are notoriously well behaved in restaurants on the continent. I believe there was even a best seller in the UK about why Parisian children are so well behaved in restaurants, as guide to rules about children's behaviour.

[Ellie]

Where to start....

 

Children to a pub? 

 

I am sorry to be the 'burst the bubble' bad guy, but children are notoriously well behaved in restaurants on the continent. I believe there was even a best seller in the UK about why Parisian children are so well behaved in restaurants, as guide to rules about children's behaviour.

SWF, I believe that children in pubs with their parents is very common in the UK. The pub is not only a 'watering hole', but a community hub (which also serves meals as well as drinks ! )

 

I also live 'on the continent' and agree that,children (I have 4 !) seem generally, but not exclusively (believe me) better behaved when they are out and about with their parents (in restaurants, theatres etc) than some do in the UK. However every responsible parent I know and no matter where they were from, would remove a fractious child from whichever situation they were in to avoid disturbing others.

[SwissBalletFan]

SWF, I believe that children in pubs with their parents is very common in the UK. The pub is not only a 'watering hole', but a community hub (which also serves meals as well as drinks ! )

 

 

 

Indeed, the pub in question was however obviously not in the UK, hence the question whether they were english.

[Ellie]

Indeed, the pub in question was however obviously not in the UK, hence the question whether they were english.

Firstly my apologies. I meant to write SBF and not SWF . I may be wrong, but my understanding was that the pub mentioned by Legseleven was in the UK - hence the surprise that a child would eat something from the 'adult' menu...... ( I fear that we are going way off topic here !)

 

One of my children used to love coming to the ballet with me when he was very young ( between 4 and 6 yrs old) It was a great treat for us both, but even at such a young age I would tell him that he had to sit nicely, keep still ,not drink too much before the ballet or in the interval (I'm talking juice - not liquor !) 

 

As has been mentioned, it's down to a parent's / guardian's common sense. x

[Moomin]

It's interesting that Europe has been mentioned, I've always found the attitude is far kinder and more inclusive where children are concerned. I've had staff entertain them with a few magic tricks, bring them treats from the kitchen, take them for a little walk around the kitchen, stop and have a chat it's really lovely! I do wonder at it being the 'vast majority' of our English kids that are so badly behaved that they run around restaurants shrieking. My experience is the majority are well behaved with a minority being like that, although obviously the havoc they create is disproportional to their numbers! And of course even nicely behaved children will have off days. As long as an adult deals with whatever misdemeanour I think fair enough being a child is about learning and pushing boundaries and obviously that has to be dealt with by the parents.

Going back to the original post obviously it was a misjudgement to take the child but sometimes children don't behave as they do at home and given the excitement of a trip out to the theatre perhaps it was uncharacteristic. I definitely would have expected one of them to take her out as soon as possible depending where they were sitting as it wasn't fair for her or those around her.

[Legseleven]

SwissBalletFan, we were indeed in an English pub which served meals in a separated section from the main bar area. That's why I thought it was sad that we were asked if we were in fact English (we are), because DD didn't want to eat from the children's menu; it must have been very unusual that a child chose to eat a small portion of an 'adult' meal instead.

[Fonty]

It's interesting that Europe has been mentioned, I've always found the attitude is far kinder and more inclusive where children are concerned. I've had staff entertain them with a few magic tricks, bring them treats from the kitchen, take them for a little walk around the kitchen, stop and have a chat it's really lovely! I do wonder at it being the 'vast majority' of our English kids that are so badly behaved that they run around restaurants shrieking. My experience is the majority are well behaved with a minority being like that, although obviously the havoc they create is disproportional to their numbers! And of course even nicely behaved children will have off days. As long as an adult deals with whatever misdemeanour I think fair enough being a child is about learning and pushing boundaries and obviously that has to be dealt with by the parents.

Going back to the original post obviously it was a misjudgement to take the child but sometimes children don't behave as they do at home and given the excitement of a trip out to the theatre perhaps it was uncharacteristic. I definitely would have expected one of them to take her out as soon as possible depending where they were sitting as it wasn't fair for her or those around her.

 

I gathered from the original post that the child had no interest at all in what was happening on the stage? So I got the impression that it wasn't the excitement of the trip, but boredom on the child's part?  I would have no problem with a small child getting a little over the top with the magic and wonder of the performance.  It is how the parent deals with that excitement that is really the issue.  A quick "Shhh, darling, we don't want to disturb other people" wouldn't cause me any problems at all.  Probably make me smile that the child was enjoying it so much.

 

And yes, I have heard many British parents complain that restaurants in Britain are not "welcoming" to children.  But it is a chicken and egg situation, isn't it?  Children abroad behave well, by and large, therefore they are welcomed.  A lot of modern British parents seem to think that controlling their children in any public place - restaurants, theatres, public transport - is in some way arresting their development.  So, when they take them out to eat and then completely ignore any disruption their offspring are causing, the staff and fellow diners look disapproving.

 

I would add that I have been out to eat many times in the UK with friends with their quiet, well behaved, small children, and found the staff to be very helpful and pleasant towards our party.  And the reason the children were quiet and well behaved is because one of the parents was always keeping a watchful eye, and interacting with them to keep them entertained in a low key way.  They didn't just ignore them. 

[Jan McNulty]

On a number of occasions in theatres I have noticed perhaps 2 or 3 parents who have come as a group with their young children who then sit together and completely ignore the children, no matter how bored they may be.  (And that boredom may be caused because the children do not fully understand what is happening on the stage).  

 

OTOH, as I often travel to matinees where inevitably there will be more children than in an evening performance I have seen far more well behaved than disruptive children.  Believe me, my tolerance is low so this statement is a huge compliment to the vast majority of parents who take the trouble to engage their children in the performance.

 

I was under the impression these days that most pubs that serve food and restaurants have child friendly policies.  Certainly my nieces and I go for lunch on a weekly basis, now taking my 7-month old totally gorgeous (OK I'm biased) great nephew.  Not only are the places we go friendly and welcoming but on a number of occasions we have been lucky to get Lewis out with us as the staff have wanted to keep him for themselves!!!

[SwissBalletFan]

SwissBalletFan, we were indeed in an English pub which served meals in a separated section from the main bar area. That's why I thought it was sad that we were asked if we were in fact English (we are), because DD didn't want to eat from the children's menu; it must have been very unusual that a child chose to eat a small portion of an 'adult' meal instead.

 

Thank you for the clarification, and apologies for my misunderstanding. I understand that the chain Weatherspoons and the smoking ban have dramatically changed the role of pubs, even for breakfast so good that even the Beckhams go in the UK. A role that cafes on the continent cater for, rather than pubs which are very much a characterisation of the old type of british pub.

 

In terms of children's behaviour, I feel that it generally reflects the parents' interest in the children. A proud parent who is socially responsible will usually take great care to try to make sure their child does not disturb others. I often find children in the audience emphasis my enjoyment of the ballet when they laugh and watch in awe the magic of the whole event.  Conversely, the children that annoy me with bad manners, have parents who don't care what other people think about their child's behaviour at all.

Edited January 25, 2017 by SwissBalletFan

[taxi4ballet]

Some of the children in the audience today are the principal dancers of tomorrow