Royal Ballet's Giselle - Autumn 2021

[Fonty]

15 minutes ago, capybara said:

At ENB, Precious Adam’s has, for some time, worn tights and shoes which match her skin tone when she has a soloist role or each member of the corps can appear as an individual. For corps sequences where a unified look is thought to be more appropriate, she has donned the same whitish tights and pink shoes as her colleagues.

 

I think that is the perfect solution.  

[Tango Dancer]

1 hour ago, emmarose said:

I'm also enjoying the diversity within the RB and like the fact they are not being suppressed into previous norms. I really like Joseph Sissens and think he's a lovely dancer, during lockdown he grew his hair and it looked so lovely, I did think he may have to cut it on coming back, so it was great to see him with his cornrows in Romeo and Juliet too (and I believe in the Nutcracker too). I love the celebration of diversity.

 

Joseph Sissens is amazing.  I am a sucker for male dancers with long legs and great style and technique on the jumps so he's one of my favourites because he's so graceful in the air.  I loved him with the cornrows, he looks so handsome and distinguished but I also liked how he had more of an afro in the Ashton event recently.  

[alison]

Although I appreciate that much of this discussion has tended towards the abstract, it is a sensitive subject for many people, and a number of dancers have been mentioned by name, so could I remind anyone posting to bear in mind how their comments may be perceived by those dancers and others close to them.

[emmarose]

2 hours ago, Tango Dancer said:

 

Joseph Sissens is amazing.  I am a sucker for male dancers with long legs and great style and technique on the jumps so he's one of my favourites because he's so graceful in the air.  I loved him with the cornrows, he looks so handsome and distinguished but I also liked how he had more of an afro in the Ashton event recently.  

 

He's one of my favourites too, he has a lovely quality to his work and as you said, so graceful in the air. Also, amazing feet! 

He just has great hair all round, however he wears it! 

[Dawnstar]

3 hours ago, capybara said:

At ENB, Precious Adam’s has, for some time, worn tights and shoes which match her skin tone when she has a soloist role or each member of the corps can appear as an individual. For corps sequences where a unified look is thought to be more appropriate, she has donned the same whitish tights and pink shoes as her colleagues.

 

That reminds me of when I saw her as one of the stepsisters in ENB's Cinderella. It was absolutely fine her wearing brown shoes for most of the ballet until it came to the scene when the Prince turned up with a pink ballet shoe to fit it on the possible candidates - that was her off the possibles list right away!

 

I did find Marianna Tsembenhoi's different coloured shoes distracting in Giselle Act 2, but then she was right in front of me with feet at my eye level for 2 of the performances I saw. I imagine at a distance and from higher up it would be less noticeable, especially as the Giselle dresses are long. I did find myself wondering what she's going to do for Swan Lake, as with all the corps in tutus different coloured tights & shoes will be more visible than with the long Wili dresses.

[Rob S]

If it's any comfort Marianna's tights and shoes were the same  colour as all the other snowflakes and flowers today and I didn't see any problem with her Giselle tights, it's not as if the Wilis wear white costumes

Edited December 7, 2021 by Rob S

[Ivy Lin]

I purchased the Royal Ballet stream with Yasmine Naghdi and Matthew Ball and have to say I was a bit disappointed with Naghdi. She danced beautifully, but I don't think she's a "natural" Giselle the way, say, Alina Cojocaru was. There's something very strong and almost queenly about her. I also didn't like that her hair was down the entire first act. 

[Rob S]

1 hour ago, Ivy Lin said:

 I also didn't like that her hair was down the entire first act. 

 

😮

Edited December 7, 2021 by Rob S

[Jamesrhblack]

7 hours ago, Rob S said:

 

😮

 

7 hours ago, Rob S said:

 

😮

Isn’t Giselle’s hair always down, if held back, in Act One with Berthe surreptitiously removing the restraining pins after she discovers she has been betrayed…

[Rob S]

17 minutes ago, Jamesrhblack said:

 

Isn’t Giselle’s hair always down, if held back, in Act One with Berthe surreptitiously removing the restraining pins after she discovers she has been betrayed…

 

Full disclosure....I asked someone that watched the stream whether her hair was down for the full act (which obviously it isn't normally) and she said no, so I posted a response here and then she came back with a photo which showed Yasmine's hair was worn 'uppy downy'...which I'm pretty sure it wasn't when I saw her on 10th November.

[Pas de Quatre]

8 hours ago, Ivy Lin said:

I also didn't like that her hair was down the entire first act. 

I didn't like this either. Giselle's hair is normally in a bun and yes it is Berthe who removes pins as she strokes Giselle's head/hair.  The unravelling of Giselle's hair is symbolic of her whole falling apart.  The concept of a girl "putting her hair up" meant she was no longer a child, but was growing up, so Giselle, at an age where she had two suitors, Hilarion and Albrecht would no longer wear her hair down.  

[alison]

53 minutes ago, Jamesrhblack said:

 

Isn’t Giselle’s hair always down, if held back, in Act One with Berthe surreptitiously removing the restraining pins after she discovers she has been betrayed…

 

Some of this run's Giselles appeared to have it in a normal bun.

[Anna C]

15 hours ago, capybara said:

At ENB, Precious Adam’s has, for some time, worn tights and shoes which match her skin tone when she has a soloist role or each member of the corps can appear as an individual. For corps sequences where a unified look is thought to be more appropriate, she has donned the same whitish tights and pink shoes as her colleagues.

 

I think that would work better if the Wilis all wore white/ivory/pale grey tights and shoes, but - correct me if I’m wrong - they wear pale pink tights and pointe shoes, don’t they? Pink tights in particular can look more “distracting” on dark skin (a sort of greyish pink) than brown tights.

And yes, I know white dancers don’t have ballet pink skin, but pale pink is at least pale.

 

I just think it’s been such a long, hard fight for black dancers/dancers of colour to *finally* have ballet tights and pointe shoes that tone with their skin and extend the leg line, is it acceptable for me, as a white person, to complain when they wear them?  Personally, I don’t think so, but perhaps I’m fortunate that it genuinely doesn’t distract or bother me, or take anything away from the unity of the Corps’s beautiful dancing. 

[Anna C]

9 hours ago, Ivy Lin said:

I purchased the Royal Ballet stream with Yasmine Naghdi and Matthew Ball and have to say I was a bit disappointed with Naghdi. She danced beautifully, but I don't think she's a "natural" Giselle the way, say, Alina Cojocaru was. There's something very strong and almost queenly about her. I also didn't like that her hair was down the entire first act. 

 

Fully down, or half up and half down?  I’ve seen lots of Giselles with the latter, including - if I am remembering rightly - Cojocaru.

[art_enthusiast]

28 minutes ago, Anna C said:

 

Fully down, or half up and half down?  I’ve seen lots of Giselles with the latter, including - if I am remembering rightly - Cojocaru.

I saw Yasmine on the 10th and I believe the hair was half up and half down - then fully down in the mad scene after a covert removal of the pins. I believe Marianela's was a similar style as well? At least I think it was in the performance on the 18th.

Edited December 7, 2021 by art_enthusiast

[art_enthusiast]

10 hours ago, Ivy Lin said:

I purchased the Royal Ballet stream with Yasmine Naghdi and Matthew Ball and have to say I was a bit disappointed with Naghdi. She danced beautifully, but I don't think she's a "natural" Giselle the way, say, Alina Cojocaru was. There's something very strong and almost queenly about her. I also didn't like that her hair was down the entire first act. 

I have to say I was impressed with her mad scene, I think she was very good, especially in the moments after stabbing herself. (Referring to the performance on the 10th, so not the livestream, but I'm sure there's not a lot of difference).

[Sim]

47 minutes ago, Anna C said:

 

Fully down, or half up and half down?  I’ve seen lots of Giselles with the latter, including - if I am remembering rightly - Cojocaru.

Yes, definitely Cojocaru;  I just checked on Google and YouTube and her hair is down with clips on each side in Act 1.  This makes eminent sense to me:  in Act 1, she is still a young, carefree girl without the restraints of adulthood and marriage.

 

In Act 2, when her hair is up, she has matured into a spirit woman who understands forgiveness and redemption and the emotional burdens of being grown up.  The more mature hairstyle reflects this.  

 

Or maybe we are reading too much into it;  maybe it's just the dancer's preference!

[Pas de Quatre]

16 hours ago, LinMM said:

 

Most people back in the 50’s could only have contemplated such a career if lucky enough to win a scholarship to a good school.  You had to be good of course to win a scholarship but there were not that very many of them! 
Luckily today access to good Dance schemes outside of vocational school is much more widely available and happily more inclusive as well. 
 

Unfortunately I think this is part of the problem.  In the 1950s and 1960s school leaving age was 15, so the majority of the population went to work then.  Ballet training thus was restricted to those who had real potential and the majority managed to find jobs.  Local authorities were often a source of grants, but these varied wildly. some LAs were generous and helped many with their training fees and even living costs, others were stingy and it was difficult to get anything from them. 

 

Now, school or training is mandatory to 18 and funded training places have mushroomed so there is an over supply of Graduates who have no chance of finding a performing job and have incurred a huge student loan.

 

 

 

(Answered here as quoting LinMM but not sure whether this wouldn't be better moved to another thread such as "Was it Worth it")

Edited December 7, 2021 by Pas de Quatre
add paragraph

[EVWS]

30 minutes ago, Sim said:

Or maybe we are reading too much into it;  maybe it's just the dancer's preference!

I remember sometime ago someone asking Lauren Cuthbertson on her Instagram about Giselle's hairstyle in Act 1 and she said it was up to the dancer to choose how it was styled up to the point where Berthe takes all of the clips/hair pins etc. out during the mad sene 

Edited December 7, 2021 by EVWS

[Rina]

On 06/12/2021 at 10:11, Jamesrhblack said:

The choreography gives you a real sense that that this Dionysian love of the dance is gaining the upper hand. I’ve long been intrigued by the way in that Giselle, even though Albrecht is obviously exhausted, literally beckons him to continue dancing with her. 

 

Yes, it is intriguing. On a literal level, you could say he has to continue dancing until dawn breaks and the Wilis lose their powers. Thinking mythically, Dionysus is "the god of indestructible life" according to Kerenyi, and we could see Giselle as possessed by him - even identified with him - in those moments - dance as a metaphor carrying the indestructibility of life in its fullest possible sense.

 

Mythic thinking is playful. If we see Giselle through the perspectives offered by Dionysian myths, there are some striking images to ponder. Giselle's letting down her hair, for example, could be explored in the context of the god's title of "Great Loosener" - with resonances to the effects of drinking wine, as well as dancing, and incipient loss of reason. Even touches like Hilarion being driven to death by the Wilis could be viewed as an echo of the myth in which Dionysus is thrown out of Olympus into the depths of the sea as a result of Hera's murderous rage.

 

I'd also be curious about Giselle's child-like nature - how she touches Bathilde's dress in what literally would be a shocking breach of protocol for example. Dionysus was called "divine child" by the Greeks, and there is a myth that he was torn to pieces by titans while distracted playing with his toys. The way she receives Bathilde's chain and in a child-like, innocent way becomes a part of the upper world to which she does not really belong, and soon expels her, also feels Dionysian. 

[LinMM]

Two things! 
My post about the 50’s was a sort of reply to meetmeatthebarre’s post about her parents difficulty in contemplating a career for her as a dancer ....for different reasons of course ....but sharing many of us in a similar position!! The post can be moved but I don’t know if will fit in with this other thread as I didn’t post it there!! It has gone a bit off Giselle true but it came out of that discussion. 
 

The hair in Giselle thing! I think it would be up in Act 2 as wouldn’t make sense in that Act with hair flying around all over the place as would detract from the spirit quality of the wilis. In the first act adds to girl like quality to be worn down though many dancers still wear up in this act except for mad scene etc.
 

[emmarose]

3 hours ago, art_enthusiast said:

I saw Yasmine on the 10th and I believe the hair was half up and half down - then fully down in the mad scene after a covert removal of the pins. I believe Marianela's was a similar style as well? At least I think it was in the performance on the 18th.

 

I think Marianela started with her hair fully back, then she emerged later from the cottage with it half up and down before the mad scene when it was completely down. That seems to be what I remember from the 18th.

[Dawnstar]

4 hours ago, Pas de Quatre said:

I didn't like this either. Giselle's hair is normally in a bun and yes it is Berthe who removes pins as she strokes Giselle's head/hair.  The unravelling of Giselle's hair is symbolic of her whole falling apart.  The concept of a girl "putting her hair up" meant she was no longer a child, but was growing up, so Giselle, at an age where she had two suitors, Hilarion and Albrecht would no longer wear her hair down.  

 

Of the 4 Giselle I've seen two - Naghdi & Nunez - had their hair semi-down for most of Act 1 and the other two - Hayward & Morera - had it up. I preferred the latter as it was then more of a contrast when Giselle's hair was suddenly down for the mad scene. I hadn't thought of it from the point of view of putting her hair up but that does make sense as an additional argument. (Being someone with old-fashioned views on many things, I've worn my own hair in a bun since I turned 18.)

Edited December 7, 2021 by Dawnstar

[emmarose]

13 minutes ago, Dawnstar said:

 

Of the 4 Giselle I've seen two - Naghdi & Nunez - had their hair semi-down for most of Act 1 and the other two - Hayward & Morera - had it up. I preferred the latter as it was then more of a contrast when Giselle's hair was suddenly down for the mad scene. I hadn't thought of it from the point of view of putting her hair up but that does make sense as an additional argument. (Being someone with old-fashioned views on many things, I've worn my own hair in a bun since I turned 18.)

 

Do you mind me asking why you decided to wear your hair in a bun since age 18? Of course, don't feel you have to, I just have never really heard of something like that, that when you turned 18 you had to wear your hair in a bun and wondered if it was self imposed or a religious decision?

[Dawnstar]

1 hour ago, emmarose said:

Do you mind me asking why you decided to wear your hair in a bun since age 18? Of course, don't feel you have to, I just have never really heard of something like that, that when you turned 18 you had to wear your hair in a bun and wondered if it was self imposed or a religious decision?

 

It's the concept that Pas de Quatre has already described:

 

6 hours ago, Pas de Quatre said:

The concept of a girl "putting her hair up" meant she was no longer a child, but was growing up

 

Since nowadays people are considered to be adults once they turn 18, I started putting my hair up when I turned 18. As well as liking the concept, it also works for me because I have OCD and so it keeps my hair out of the way of things I consider unclean that would touch my shoulders, such as my handbag straps and seat belts, when I'm out and about.

[FionaM]

7 hours ago, Anna C said:

 

I just think it’s been such a long, hard fight for black dancers/dancers of colour to *finally* have ballet tights and pointe shoes that tone with their skin and extend the leg line, is it acceptable for me, as a white person, to complain when they wear them?  Personally, I don’t think so, but perhaps I’m fortunate that it genuinely doesn’t distract or bother me, or take anything away from the unity of the Corps’s beautiful dancing. 

I agree with you.  
 

As a white person we have little comprehension of the daily struggle in life in the UK for people with different coloured skins or of other ethnicities, and I can imagine it is even more difficult in ballet.  (I have an adopted cousin from Vietnam … she has plenty of stories that would shock you.)  

 

And so I agree that I have no right to comment on the colour of tights and shoes, hairstyle, or anything else.  

 

I actually feel really uncomfortable reading this conversation in this thread.  

[Fonty]

Ballet is a visual art, and I think we should all have the right to comment on these matters.    While it is wholly and completely unacceptable to be make critical comments about a dancer's physical colouring or hair texture,  I think we should be able to comment on any aspect that relates to  things such as costume, hairstyles, or the overall appearance of a collection of dancers on stage without being made to feel guilty.  

Edited December 7, 2021 by Fonty

[Timmie]

One thing I think I noticed in the two Giselles I saw. With Nunez/Muntagirov it was Giselle, with a joyous flick of her wrist, that threw away the daisy after the ‘he loves, he loves me not’ bit. But with Hayward/Campbell it was Albrecht. Looking at recordings it’s only ever Albrecht that throws away the flower. Did I imagine it?

[Sim]

34 minutes ago, Timmie said:

One thing I think I noticed in the two Giselles I saw. With Nunez/Muntagirov it was Giselle, with a joyous flick of her wrist, that threw away the daisy after the ‘he loves, he loves me not’ bit. But with Hayward/Campbell it was Albrecht. Looking at recordings it’s only ever Albrecht that throws away the flower. Did I imagine it?

I have never seen Giselle do this in any production, but as I didn’t see Nuñez/Vadream I can’t answer your question!  

[annamk]

An interesting discourse about Giselle - history, meanings etc

 

here https://www.alastairmacaulay.com/all-essays/giselle-questions-answers?rq=giselle

[Timmie]

6 minutes ago, Sim said:

I have never seen Giselle do this in any production, but as I didn’t see Nuñez/Vadream I can’t answer your question!  

 

It seemed so good at the time but it’s possible it may have been the viewing angle combined with the daisy’s trajectory. I hope it happened the way I remember, it really set up how carefree Giselle was. I’m going to be disappointed if I’m wrong 😄. (November 18th).

[emmarose]

3 hours ago, FionaE said:

I agree with you.  
 

As a white person we have little comprehension of the daily struggle in life in the UK for people with different coloured skins or of other ethnicities, and I can imagine it is even more difficult in ballet.  (I have an adopted cousin from Vietnam … she has plenty of stories that would shock you.)  

 

And so I agree that I have no right to comment on the colour of tights and shoes, hairstyle, or anything else.  

 

I actually feel really uncomfortable reading this conversation in this thread.  

 

I completely agree with you both and feel very uncomfortable at the thought of any white person passing judgement on what a person of colour should be wearing on their legs, especially if it's to say they want them to look paler or to say the natural tone was distracting and they didn't like it. 

Time has moved on and we must all move on with them. Is it as it's always been done? No, but that doesn't mean it's always been done correctly. I wouldn't be comfortable as a white person passing such a judgement knowing what we know about how hard it is for people of colour within this industry. 

 

Funnily enough though, I took my mother to this and she noticed Marianna as a stand out dancer, when I asked her if she noticed anything about her tights she didn't have a clue.

[emmarose]

5 hours ago, Dawnstar said:

 

It's the concept that Pas de Quatre has already described:

 

 

Since nowadays people are considered to be adults once they turn 18, I started putting my hair up when I turned 18. As well as liking the concept, it also works for me because I have OCD and so it keeps my hair out of the way of things I consider unclean that would touch my shoulders, such as my handbag straps and seat belts, when I'm out and about.

 

Is it something you picked up from ballet in general?

I've just never heard of it in the modern era at all, when a girl turns 18 putting their hair up in a bun.