How to ‘keep up’ with vocational school training?

[Pinkpip100]

Dd auditioned this year for vocational school (to start year 7 in September). She made it to finals but wasn’t successful in gaining a place. She had quite big reservations about boarding - as did we - but she wanted to audition anyway as she is so determined to work towards a career in classical ballet and felt that going to vocational school at 11 was the only way to achieve this. 
She is thinking about auditioning again next year, or possibly holding off until year 9 or 10 when she will hopefully feel more ready to be away from home. My question is - how do we even begin to ensure that she doesn’t get completely left behind compared to the girls that will be starting vocational school? She loves her local dance school and they do have some really good teachers but are not at all ‘pushy’ - this definitely has some benefits, but also means they don’t encourage extra classes, private lessons etc. Alongside her usual classes, she has been doing a weekend associate class elsewhere which will hopefully continue (still waiting for confirmation on this) and also a more performance-based class which also runs every weekend. She definitely needs to improve flexibility, strength, posture and balance -  but I don’t feel as though anything she does at the moment is particularly targeted at these areas. She currently does 2 ballet classes (RAD), tap, modern, contemporary & acro, plus the two associate classes (both ballet). What are we missing?! And is it even possible for non-vocational dancers to secure a place at upper school? Any advice much appreciated. 

[BattementBatty]

No advice but this is my daughters exact position.

[Foreverdrivingtodance]

My daughter got to year 7 white lodge finals. No place a couple of years ago. We have just found a really good local school to train at. She goes to local grammar school. This year she was one of 6 to get to White Lodge finals for year 9 place. Sadly I believe none were offered a place.she has got a London year 9 Mids place. There is good training out there you can combine with a normal school. We have found though it is very tiring, long days dancing after school then early starts next day. We are still plodding along but I fear as we near year 10 and she will have to do 11 GCSEs it’s going to get harder although not impossible. A lot of other people go down this route and are successful at Upper Schools. My daughter never complains of waivers that this is her dream to carry on with it all 🤦‍♀️ So I will support her! So find a great school to provide her with vocational level training

[Anna C]

We’ve definitely heard of students who have gained places at good upper schools despite not having been at vocational school since Year 7, just as there have been students who boarded at 11 but didn’t continue full-time ballet training, for various reasons.  I agree with Foreverdrivingtodance that it’s tiring (and can be expensive) to try to balance academics, a home life, homework and enough *quality* training hours with good teachers, especially in years 10 and 11.  For this reason I’d audition again for a year 9 or year 10 place, if I were your dd.  

 

You could probably drop the Acro class and Modern if classical ballet is the goal and if you can find enough high quality ballet training.  Keep the Contemporary because even the most classical companies have Contemporary in their repertoire now.  

Does the current dance school have a track record for getting children into full-time ballet training? Are the Associate schemes aligned with good schools/have pupils leaving to go into full-time training? 

 

 

[balletbean]

4 minutes ago, Foreverdrivingtodance said:

My daughter got to year 7 white lodge finals. No place a couple of years ago. We have just found a really good local school to train at. She goes to local grammar school. This year she was one of 6 to get to White Lodge finals for year 9 place. Sadly I believe none were offered a place.she has got a London year 9 Mids place. There is good training out there you can combine with a normal school. We have found though it is very tiring, long days dancing after school then early starts next day. We are still plodding along but I fear as we near year 10 and she will have to do 11 GCSEs it’s going to get harder although not impossible. A lot of other people go down this route and are successful at Upper Schools. My daughter never complains of waivers that this is her dream to carry on with it all 🤦‍♀️ So I will support her! So find a great school to provide her with vocational level training

Having been there I can totally sympathise with you. My DD remained at school. Taking the usual 11 GCSE’s, revision balanced between the 11-14 hrs of training per week at the local dance school.  Auditioned in the Autumn of yr11 for US  and was successful. 
No associates no mds schemes. Attending SS just the summer previous to her audition. There are truly some excellent quality teachers out there with many not even housed in the trendiest of modern studios. Research the teachers and not just the school. Do they attend regular training classes themselves and have there been past pupils who have successfully moved on to vocational training. Obviously that’s a hard one to research as not every pupil that attends a local dance school wants to pursue a career in dance. 
 

[glowlight]

@Pinkpip100 it is definitely possible to get a place at vocational school at 16 without having been to vocational school before that.   My dd did and so did several of her friends.  

 

You need good local training and probably be prepared to do a fair bit of travel to get the right training, especially as she gets older.

 

Make sure your dd's local dance school is aware of her goal, and ask the teachers how best to go about it.

 

Associate schemes are definitely a good idea.  

 

Reputable summer schools are great too - this will give her (and you) a chance to see how they compare with other students of the same age including those at vocational schools. Also the experience of being taught by other teachers is very valuable.  And summer schools can give an insight into what life at vocational school, or even in a company, is like depending on the course.

 

Depending on where you live it might be worth looking CAT schemes which are designed to enable students to stay at home while receiving vocational training.

 

It helps if the high school you choose is supportive and understanding.

 

Keep doing auditions if possible so that she is used to them and can work out what works for her to manage the stress.

 

And for now, enjoy having her at home.  To be honest if she doesn't feel ready to board it may be for the best that she didn't get a place this time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Pinkpip100]

Thanks - some really good advice here - I really appreciate it. She does love her local school but they don’t have many students going on to vocational school - possibly 1 or 2 in the past 6 or 7 years. To be honest, full time training is rarely (if ever) mentioned to any of the students as a goal, although they do signpost some students to associate programmes (this is how dd found out about hers). I do worry about the juggling of dance training and academic work as dd moves up through high school, she is not hugely academic (although very good at some subjects) so I don’t think that side of things will be easy for her. Do you think that private lessons of some sort would be an essential part of the next few years - we’ve never really gone down that route but I wonder if it would help to focus on the specific areas she needs to work on...

[Anna C]

Private lessons can be hugely beneficial alongside class and associates - IF you have an excellent teacher.  Again, quality over quantity. The alternative is to move dance schools if there is one within travelling distance that sends a lot of students onto full time ballet schools? 

[NJH]

1 hour ago, glowlight said:

<snip>

 

Depending on where you live it might be worth looking CAT schemes which are designed to enable students to stay at home while receiving vocational training.

 

<snip>

 

 AIUI The only  explicitly  Ballet CAT is the AoNB   one in Leeds ,  the  rest seem to be  aimed at Contemporary  / Urban  altough they do  include ballet tuition 

[Dance*is*life]

The defining factor is ultimately not just talent and sufficient high level training, but the "look" - if you look like a classical dancer with the right proportions and physique you're much more likely to be selected for upper school.  I would say that the fact that she got to the finals at 11 is probably a good indication of her having the "look" and is a good omen for the future!   

 

How long are her ballet lessons?  It's not just the number of lessons, but also the length that makes a difference training wise.  If you asked - do you think that your daughter would be allowed to join some extra ballet lessons - perhaps on a different level -? What level is she doing now?  That's also a crucial factor.  Eleven is very young to board away from home -not every child is ready for that step - I know I wasn't !!!

[Pinkpip100]

Her RAD ballet lessons are around 1 hr, associate classes 1.5 - 2 hrs. She’s recently started grade 4 & inter foundation.   She did previously double up on grade 2 & 3 lessons but generally the school aren’t keen on this. 

Not sure about the “look” - she has a very petite frame & long legs - but not the classical long neck or highly arched feet.

I think I need to explore private lessons elsewhere (once they are allowed again). I have been recommended a few possible options - although this looks like a very expensive route to go down. I’m pretty sure our nearest CAT scheme is contemporary only but I will check.  

[balletbean]

2 hours ago, Pinkpip100 said:

Thanks - some really good advice here - I really appreciate it. She does love her local school but they don’t have many students going on to vocational school - possibly 1 or 2 in the past 6 or 7 years. To be honest, full time training is rarely (if ever) mentioned to any of the students as a goal, although they do signpost some students to associate programmes (this is how dd found out about hers). I do worry about the juggling of dance training and academic work as dd moves up through high school, she is not hugely academic (although very good at some subjects) so I don’t think that side of things will be easy for her. Do you think that private lessons of some sort would be an essential part of the next few years - we’ve never really gone down that route but I wonder if it would help to focus on the specific areas she needs to work on...

It’s still early day’s. The first year or so at senior school can be quite daunting academically coupled with dancing outside of the classroom. What helped us which is probably not easy for many. DD’s academic school was about a 8 minute walk to the studio. So she stayed on at school to complete some of the homework after the school bell then walked down the road to the studio. We lived a matter of minutes away (subject to the traffic lights). She developed her own little routine over time. Looking back this certainly was a contributory factor as she progressed through to GCSE’s incl Regular bedtime.  
As far as other pupils heading off to vocational training, that can be all down to the current cohort rather than the studio not being of the required standard. My eldest DD when she left the studio the entire cohort of 18yr olds went off to different MT colleges. That was back in 2013. Then there was nothing from the same studio until 2017 then 2019. When the seniors left and entered vocational training bar one who went to uni. Only one classical the rest MT. Probably won’t see that happen again for the foreseeable future but then it was never planned or actively talked about. It just happened that way. 
Just take each year as it comes. Mindful of the long game but stay in the present. A lot can happen over time. Good luck. 

[Dance*is*life]

I'm just wondering if you were to explain to the school about her preferring to stay with them for the time being rather than go to vocational school, but because of that she is really keen to have extra lessons - perhaps they would be more accommodating?   Grade 4 /IF sounds a good level for her age, although 75 minutes would be better than 60.  Private lessons are expensive and not always appropriate - if you go elsewhere they may bring you into conflict with her school....... Whatever you decide to do most important is that your daughter is happy and continues to enjoy her dancing!

[Pinkpip100]

2 minutes ago, Dance*is*life said:

I'm just wondering if you were to explain to the school about her preferring to stay with them for the time being rather than go to vocational school, but because of that she is really keen to have extra lessons - perhaps they would be more accommodating?   Grade 4 /IF sounds a good level for her age, although 75 minutes would be better than 60.  Private lessons are expensive and not always appropriate - if you go elsewhere they may bring you into conflict with her school....... Whatever you decide to do most important is that your daughter is happy and continues to enjoy her dancing!

You’re right - perhaps I should speak to them - for some reason I’m always a bit reluctant to do this - they tend to be quite guarded and not really open to discussing the students in this way. Maybe I just need to get a bit braver! 

[DD Driver]

Yes, students who did not go to a vocational lower school school can get into the upper school.  In fact, when you read through relevant threads on this forum, you can pick up on some of the frustration from parents who see so many lower school students assessed out in favour of international dancers who followed different training regimes.

 

Maybe there are cost savings that come from not boarding at a vocational school this year?

 

Here are some of the things international dancers (who may not have access to a UK-type vocational school) do:

 

- As already suggested, I would recommend quality private lessons to focus on your DD's specific needs.

 

- Similarly, I would meet with a dance physio to establish exercises and goals that will improve the areas you mentioned - flexibility, strength, posture and balance. 

 

- I would highly recommend that you take your DD to a doctor / sports dietician where you can learn about her calcium and Vitamin D requirements. Most stress fractures in young athletes/dancers are due to insufficient diet given their physical workload.  Diet and supplements have an important part to play in building a high functioning and resilient  dancer's body.

 

As you take this kind of action, you are showing your DD what it takes to have a goal, do your research and to then go out and work for it.  Priceless!

All the best xx 

 

Edited May 25, 2020 by DD Driver

[Dancing feet]

We are following this path. My elder daughter is year 9 currently and my younger going into year 7. My elder daughter is at a grammar school studying for 11 GCSE’s plus juggling 18 hours a week of ballet. Her school have been very understanding but it is very hard. Her self discipline is amazing. We don’t have the local dance schools and travel up to an hour and 3/4 to get to class. We will continue with this as long as she wants too. Her dedication, drive and hunger to dance never waivers. You can make this work, it is hard but when you see the joy on your child’s face, the friendships she has made and the life skills it is worth it. Good luck with how to get the hours. We attend a number of schools, all know of each other and this works for us. 

[Anna C]

13 hours ago, Pinkpip100 said:

You’re right - perhaps I should speak to them - for some reason I’m always a bit reluctant to do this - they tend to be quite guarded and not really open to discussing the students in this way. Maybe I just need to get a bit braver! 

 

There are times when I wish I’d been braver on behalf of my daughter - I think the thing to remember is that (unless you’re getting classes for nothing) you are a paying customer and have the right to speak about your daughter’s prospects.  You also have the right to move schools/change teachers if you feel this will benefit your daughter.  With ballet in general it can be very easy to fall into the trap of thinking your child is so lucky to be at a school that you must keep quiet for fear of you or your child getting a bad reputation.   If you want or need to talk to staff or move schools, you should be able to do so without repercussions.  

 

I would always advise being open and honest with the school (old and new), being civil and giving the school/teacher a chance to give their point of view and come to a compromise if possible, abide by reasonable ts & cs (e.g. giving written notice, paying any outstanding fees etc.).   Teachers aren’t mind-readers so if you are unhappy or unsure of what they could do to support your child, make an appointment to speak to them, just as you would with an academic school.   If they are unwilling or unable to offer more classes/private lessons, then you could ask how they feel about your child having private lessons (or whatever) elsewhere.  If they agree, great.  If not, you have the right, as a paying customer, to change schools.  

[Pinkpip100]

Thanks @Anna C, very sound advice. If I’m honest, I worry that they will think I’m deluding myself over dd’s talent/potential! Or trying to make her out to be ‘better’ than other students and therefore worthy of ‘special treatment’! But I think that is more my issue than theirs, so I definitely need to be more open with them about dd’s next steps. 

[taxi4ballet]

28 minutes ago, Pinkpip100 said:

Thanks @Anna C, very sound advice. If I’m honest, I worry that they will think I’m deluding myself over dd’s talent/potential! Or trying to make her out to be ‘better’ than other students and therefore worthy of ‘special treatment’! But I think that is more my issue than theirs, so I definitely need to be more open with them about dd’s next steps. 

If she got to finals, then she is 'better' than their other students and therefore does need additional support and training in order for her to achieve to her fullest potential.

 

If I were you, I'd read Anna C's post above very carefully, and re-assess whether your dd's current school is going to be pro-active enough in supporting her in her anbitions. You may need to consider moving her to another school which has a better student success record. With the best will in the world, not all dance teachers are good enough to train students to the highest level.

[Peanut68]

13 hours ago, DD Driver said:

Yes, students who did not go to a vocational lower school school can get into the upper school.  In fact, when you read through relevant threads on this forum, you can pick up on some of the frustration from parents who see so many lower school students assessed out in favour of international dancers who followed different training regimes.

 

Maybe there are cost savings that come from not boarding at a vocational school this year?

 

Here are some of the things international dancers (who may not have access to a UK-type vocational school) do:

 

- As already suggested, I would recommend quality private lessons to focus on your DD's specific needs.

 

- Similarly, I would meet with a dance physio to establish exercises and goals that will improve the areas you mentioned - flexibility, strength, posture and balance. 

 

- I would highly recommend that you take your DD to a doctor / sports dietician where you can learn about her calcium and Vitamin D requirements. Most stress fractures in young athletes/dancers are due to insufficient diet given their physical workload.  Diet and supplements have an important part to play in building a high functioning and resilient  dancer's body.

 

As you take this kind of action, you are showing your DD what it takes to have a goal, do your research and to then go out and work for it.  Priceless!

All the best xx 

 

Gosh DDDriver, I would never have thought about these things.... but actually wish someone had pointed these out to me in the ‘early’ days prepping for training. We did follow the vocational boarding route from a young age. It worked mostly as the logistics of accessing good training were impossible We are rural, far from London with rubbish transport routes. Local training at more recreation (albeit excellent) focussed school not offering enough extras or any private lessons or enough serious peers to help spur one another on. Yes, training was out there but the family dynamic was not helpful; the hubbie would’ve balked at majority of attention focussed on just one child plus the travel/costant fees etc & wouid not have been acceptable. Nor would he have understood getting the suggested extras DD driver cleverly suggests at a young age....he’d get it for a 16 year old aiming at a rugby career....just not age 10 dancer! 

And we all see how it’s thd early years really that are so pivotal in so many things.

A funded place at vocational was really only hope to access & afford what I hoped would provide all that plus sound academic education, a happy peer group & more settled existence for all the family. And yes, in the main it has. However, I think the almost weakest element is possibly all those DDDriver mentions as necessary.... and I saw often day pupils who still accessed ‘extras’ were getting better all round & often those who had family able to juggle ‘normal’ school with the regime you suggest also seem more advanced & are successful at Upper School auditions. And of course look to the Internationals.....but remember that sadly finances play a big part too.... generally those trained like the Inters & the Inter families tend to be from the highest earning demographics on the whole.....

Hindsight is a wonderful thing....

A  Cost v Benefit analysis wouid possibly have been a useful thing to have done back in the day 😂 Whi knows if decisions/finances would’ve been made/used thevsame way?

i think I do view Upper School as a whole new beginning not really a continuation of training - even I think if they stay st same establishment. 

Will be interesting to follow journeys & compare outcomes down the line from the different ‘paths’ they took.....

god luck to all! 

 

[Pups_mum]

@Pinkpip100 I completely understand why you are uncomfortable with the idea that your DD is "better" than the others at her dance school, as it is such an emotive word, but she is definitely "different". Out of all the 10/11 year olds in the country who take dance lessons, only a tiny percentage apply for vocational schools and of those, a very small proportion get as far as finals. Your DD clearly has potential. She is different to the majority of pupils in a typical local dance school and so requires a different approach. Don't be afraid to ask for that, and if her current teacher cannot provide what she needs, do look for additional or alternative provision. 

Personally, I would expect a good teacher to recognise and nurture potential in a pupil and also to recognise their own strengths and weaknesses. I'm not a dance teacher but I coach at a children's sports club. Like a typical dance school, the majority of our members are "once a week" kids, with a small number of more able and focused children. The latter group all also attend other clubs, regional training sessions etc and in fact we  actively encourage them to do that. I don't see it as any slight on our club or my ability as a coach - we want *all* our kids to enjoy themselves and reach their full potential and that sometimes means signposting them elsewhere, both for the more performance focused coaching and contact with other similar children. Being a big fish in a small pond is generally unhelpful in the long term.

It really is fine to look for more- don't feel that you are being unreasonable.

Edited May 25, 2020 by Pups_mum

[NJH]

for a young person to get to finals for  one of the vocational schools , it's  really  quite firmly likely that they are above the 'quality line'  - after all this is what the application process and preliminary auditions are about, do not feel guility  aobut  whether they are 'special'   they  quite clearly are. 

@Pups_mum is spot on 

[Anna C]

Such great advice, everyone - all I can do is echo that your dd clearly has potential otherwise she wouldn’t have got finals.  It doesn’t sound like you’re going to march in and loudly demand special treatment so definitely try not to worry or feel guilty!  You’re just asking for a conversation on if and how the school can help your dd to aim for a year 9 or 10 place.  If they can’t support her in that aim then you need to find someone who can - simple as that. 

[Pinkpip100]

Thanks everyone - definitely lots to think about here - I really appreciate all of your responses. 

[drdance]

Pinkpip100 where are you based in the country? (although right now thats somewhat of a moot point!) I run a Midlands based associate-type scheme where there is a large emphasis on the conditioning side of dance training (strength, flexibility, core placement and technique) as it's such an important foundation to build the ballet technique onto. We've had many students continue to train with their local teacher and us, before going to vocational school in year 9 or 10 (Elmhurst, Tring, YDA, Hammond) so we are well-versed in making sure students are keeping up with the standard required to then allow them to join at a later date. Some teachers just don't have an idea of the level of progress required to ensure that students can 'slot into a year group' later. I'm always happy to advise parents, give private coaching or training programmes. Please drop me a message if you are interested.

[Macy1]

Our daughters dance school has a good record of taking students with potential and developing them with some going to full time schools in yr7 and upper school levels. They run a class that is separate to the grade levels and students are encouraged to apply for associates and summer schools.

One thing I noticed from the list of your daughters activities is that it’s all dance classes. The students from our school that take the additional ballet class all do at least 45 mins of a Pilates class a week. I think maybe if you are focussing on ballet you could consider dropping acro if you’re worried about time and look at doing Pilates/PBT/conditioning 

Edited June 17, 2020 by Macy1

[Jan McNulty]

Hello Macy1 and welcome out of the lurking shadows!

[Pinkpip100]

Thanks Macy1 - her school don’t offer anything like Pilates/PBT/conditioning - but I agree it would really help so I will definitely be aiming to find something for her. 

[ArucariaBallerina]

I didn't even start ballet until I was 12, and was accepted into 2 classical upper schools. 

Everyone else has given amazing advice; the top 3 things which were game changers for me were:

 

Conditioning exercises (set by my dance physio, and Pilates which i still do with my ballet school because it is so good for strength and posture!)

Associate classes (you start improving so much faster when you're dancing with others who are at a higher level, and the longer classes helped me beyond measure as well as giving me amazing friends and fun times)

Summer schools (taking multiple classes daily also accelerated improvements and improved my stamina and performance skills as they usually incorporate a demonstration at the end. I always think they are like being in a ballet company!)

[alison]

So glad it's worked out for you, Arucaria

[NJH]

2 hours ago, ArucariaBallerina said:

<snip>

Associate classes (you start improving so much faster when you're dancing with others who are at a higher level, and the longer classes helped me beyond measure as well as giving me amazing friends and fun times)

 

I think this doesn't just apply to  young dancers and  associates ... it can apply to everyone  ( but this somewhat swerves  from the topic of this thread)

if you can 'cope' in a class it;s  better to  be  'the worst'  in a class that  pushes, pulls and stretches you , than  sitting  on your laurels in a class that's too easy   -  save  the  practise of taking an 'easier' class to beast yourself on  basics  or  stuff like taking a  less complex class but, with the knowledge and consent of the teacher, modifying it  ( e.g.  adult dancers  taking less complex classes  but  en pointe  rather than trying to combine both  the level of class and being en pointe  -   there;s only a handful of classes i know  that are explicitly designed  this way  vs  'pointe conditioning and technique classes' (which have  their place  - and as a teacher of mine says  there's only so far to go in these classes  - once you  reach a certain levle of skill and confidence  it;s a case of  just  doing  normal class en pointe)  or  those classes  where it's assumed you fully know what you are doing  en pointe 

Edited June 22, 2020 by NJH

[Pinkpip100]

4 hours ago, ArucariaBallerina said:

I didn't even start ballet until I was 12, and was accepted into 2 classical upper schools. 

Everyone else has given amazing advice; the top 3 things which were game changers for me were:

 

Conditioning exercises (set by my dance physio, and Pilates which i still do with my ballet school because it is so good for strength and posture!)

Associate classes (you start improving so much faster when you're dancing with others who are at a higher level, and the longer classes helped me beyond measure as well as giving me amazing friends and fun times)

Summer schools (taking multiple classes daily also accelerated improvements and improved my stamina and performance skills as they usually incorporate a demonstration at the end. I always think they are like being in a ballet company!)

Thanks @ArucariaBallerina, that’s really helpful. And well done! 

[Coffeemum]

Yes, you can absolutely keep up with vocational school training. But as other people have said here, it's a big commitment with all the planning, driving around and fitting around regular school. I would say private lessons are really worth the effort and money with the right teacher and also a good conditioning programme. 

My daughter also had permission from the local school to have half a day off for dance training...  

Training locally (ish) certainly comes with its problems but the great thing about it, is that you can really find the right teachers for your child and also do more performing than you'd do at vocational school. That's something that my eldest dd really missed once she got into a voc school. And by the by, we wish we'd stuck with the local training until upper school... But everyone's journey is unique and it's a question of finding what's right for them. One fabulous teacher said recently to her, it doesn't matter where you train, it just has to be the right place for the individual artist to flourish.

Good luck!