PrincessandtheFrog Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3269329/Girls-young-11-suffering-painful-injuries-attempting-extreme-dance-moves-online.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan McNulty Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Yes, I saw it via FB earlier today. I chose not to post the link. It is horrific and salutary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrincessandtheFrog Posted October 12, 2015 Author Share Posted October 12, 2015 Should I remove it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxi4ballet Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Greater publicity about the adverse effects of over-stretching is probably a good thing IMHO. There seems to be a competitive nature to it, and health professionals are keen to discourage it by the sound of things. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anon2 Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 The article relates to the one posted by Anneiliesy in July in the thread titled over training. Also an Australian article about injury, social media influences and age. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Picturesinthefirelight Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Whilst I personally can't stand the Daily Mail I think this is an issue which needs publicising more as a warning to young dancers. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pups_mum Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 (edited) I am not sure it is the adult, professionals that are the biggest influence really, though the trend for every more flexibility and "gymnastics" in the dance world must have something to do with it. I think youngsters tend to be more interested in comparing themselves to others around their own age, and social media has changed that from just looking at other dancers in your school or locality to being able to look at the whole world. Basically a lot of it is plain old fashioned peer pressure with a 21st century twist. The internet has so many benefits but I hate the pressure that social media use puts on so many young people. I don't know how it can be prevented though :-( Edited October 13, 2015 by Pups_mum 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lema Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 I think that anything that raises awareness of the dangers of over stretching in dancers can only be a good thing, my dd doesn't have Facebook but she does have Instagram and follows a lot of dance pages and there are literally hundreds of pictures posted everyday of young girls doing these extreme positions and stretches. My dd is quite flexible and I do worry that she will be tempted to copy them, but I am lucky that she's very sensible and knows to only do the stretches her teachers have taught her. And pups_mum I agree totally with you about the adult professionals, as my daughter follows a lot of ballet companies that post photos also, yet it's different as she understands that these are adults who have trained their whole lives whereas the photos of youngsters could be looked at as "that's the competition" with the girls comparing themselves to their peers!! I hope parents out there encourage their young dancers to trust their teachers who know how to build up, strengthen and prepare the body to cope with the strains dancing has on a young body. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxi4ballet Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Perhaps some of the blame for the current obsession might be with the 'Dance Moms' effect? It seems to be particularly the girls doing commercial/street/freestyle/acro who are most prone to this. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiz Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 It's a shame neither Facebook or Instagram will censor this. They are happy to ban breastfeeding mothers. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxi4ballet Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 It's a shame neither Facebook or Instagram will censor this. They are happy to ban breastfeeding mothers. Facebook has been known to censor photos of children dancing in leotards, and one well-known vocational school occasionally sends me emails about workshops etc. The photos on the email are always blocked by my ISP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vonrothbart Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 There seems to be a notion going about that flexibility is the be all and end all in the dance world. It's obviously good to have it, but not so good without the strength to hold it naturally, without props. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amos73 Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 But what part do the schools have to play in it? Hyper flexibility seems to be more and more what they are looking for too, so not surprising if children want to try and attain it as they think it is necessary to gain a place. DDs teacher who is cover teacher at RBS was told that one of the overseas students taken to WL this year was so hypermobile they had previously broken their back?! Some photos posted on instagram by students at WL show them in the poses condemned in the article. (My DD follows some of them but not any of the dance mom type accounts). I don't think it is just 'Dance Moms' type publicity that is affecting it, it is also decisions by the top vocational schools that seem to imply this level of flexibility is required. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulip Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 It's certainly not promoted at Central. The school does not want to see over turning out unnaturally, and they won't let their students put their legs up way too high unless the support and correct positioning is there. I can't speak for other top vocational schools, but I'm sure other parents might. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karen Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 I have seen no evidence of pushing students to be over flexible in the classes at The Hammond where I have observed my Dd. Dancers have been encouraged to stretch and push as far as they can, but nothing inappropriate or over flexed. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Picturesinthefirelight Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 I agree Karen. The emphasis according to dd is on getting the line exactly right & even if a student is flexible not allowing them to extend higher than they have the strength to maintain. But what they do in their own time is a different matter I guess 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tabitha Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 These hyper-extended poses are potentially dangerous for children, but even on trained adults, they may not be as dangerous but they are unattractive. And having the flexibility to get your leg up behind your ear doesn't mean you can dance, it just means you can get your leg behind your ear. I really wish we could just get back to dancing and get rid of hyper-extension as a thing to aspire to. It makes me so sad. 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amos73 Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Pictures, Karen and Tulip glad to hear that these schools don't encourage it. I agree Tabitha, flexibility is not the be all and end all when it comes to dancing, but I do think these kind of photos on social media sites are symptomatic of an aesthetic 'ideal' that does seem to be more and more prevalent in classical ballet, and dancers and aspiring dancers are going to be affected by this 'ideal'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tabitha Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Do you really think it is an aesthetic ideal? If so I am even sadder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewinelake Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Yes - I think so. Look at Osipova and the glamour shots of grand jetés straight out of rhythmic gymnastics. I know that there's a lot more than that to Osipova's technique, but her incredible legwork can't be captured in a single shot.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarahw Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 I too find the over 180 degree jete unattractive. And the rest of it is plain ugly. I guess these poses are attractive to kids as they're measurable and recordable in the way artistry isn't. I think our dd are very vulnerable to this type of thing. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zacharovitti Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 Yes it's true that most of the great schools all over the world don't force children to be hyper- flexible and prefer less extended legs with a correct line and position.....but we have to face the truth: at auditions (specially with younger children, where they are looking for potential), hyper- flexible children are preferred. They say they don't force turnout, but only children with good turnout gain a place!!! 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zacharovitti Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 And sometimes they make mistakes: if only all children with good turnout and flexibility would become good artists we would have plenty of them..... Sometimes artistry and talent are not related to hyper- mobility. I understand it's difficult to judge it at 11 or 12 in 1 hour of audition.... In addition I think that a girl that has to struggle everyday with her less mobile body, that needs to work harder to obtain what for another girl is natural and effortless, can develope an even more strong personality and passion. And personality and passion are the essential attributes of an artist. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna C Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 And sometimes they make mistakes: if only all children with good turnout and flexibility would become good artists we would have plenty of them..... Sometimes artistry and talent are not related to hyper- mobility. I understand it's difficult to judge it at 11 or 12 in 1 hour of audition.... In addition I think that a girl that has to struggle everyday with her less mobile body, that needs to work harder to obtain what for another girl is natural and effortless, can develope an even more strong personality and passion. And personality and passion are the essential attributes of an artist. I have to disagree with the concept that a hypermobile dancer doesn't struggle with her body. Hypermobility can look very desirable and of course many professional dancers are hypermobile, but they have had to work extraordinarily hard to strengthen the ligaments around their lax joints, strengthen hamstrings in order to engage them, strengthen turnout muscles so that they can physically hold that often flat turnout, etc. Many hypermobile dancers suffer joint and muscle pain as a matter of course, and they often have very low propriorception which means that they simply cannot feel which muscles are engaging. All dancers have their own personal battles of course, including those who are less mobile, and of course you are correct in that flexibility and talent do not always go together. But don't make the mistake of thinking that natural flexibility does not equal lack of effort. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancemad Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 I have to disagree with the concept that a hypermobile dancer doesn't struggle with her body. Hypermobility can look very desirable and of course many professional dancers are hypermobile, but they have had to work extraordinarily hard to strengthen the ligaments around their lax joints, strengthen hamstrings in order to engage them, strengthen turnout muscles so that they can physically hold that often flat turnout, etc. Many hypermobile dancers suffer joint and muscle pain as a matter of course, and they often have very low propriorception which means that they simply cannot feel which muscles are engaging. All dancers have their own personal battles of course, including those who are less mobile, and of course you are correct in that flexibility and talent do not always go together. But don't make the mistake of thinking that natural flexibility does not equal lack of effort. Couldn't agree more and hypermobility IS a serious hindrance to most young dancers trying to grasp secure ballet technique. Most vocational schools will cover various tests for hypermobility in the audtion physio, and if they think it's an issue, will reject the dancer. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zacharovitti Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 Sorry, i didn't mean at all that a hyper-mobile dancer has not to struggle with his body and I perfectly know that sometimes hypermobility can be an issue and exposes them to injuries. It's true that any dancer has his own battle. I just wanted to say that for less mobile children even a still position can be a problem and that what can be natural for one, takes ages to be achieved by others. Didn't want to offend anyone, sorry! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drdance Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 Even though the vocational schools are responsible in lessons (as I imagine a lot of teachers are) it's what students are doing OUT of lessons that is the concern. Sadly it has taken a few teachers somewhere to promote the idea of the scorpion/tilt/oversplit leg mount and kids all over the world are imitating it in their own time, and posting photos. I admit that in the past I have also shared photos on social media, of students practicing tilts and oversplits but these were in class while being supervised. I no longer post these kinds of photos as I am aware of the influence they may be having on others. I think it is up to responsible teachers to not post these photos. If teachers wish to practice this kind of work in their lessons, then it is up to them to assess the risk of injury, and take responsibility for it, as they do with any type of training, but by sharing photos it perpetuates the problem of the unsupervised 'copycat' behaviour. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amos73 Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 Just last night DD was looking at instagram of a dance school in UK and there were clips of a teacher doing what looked like extreme stretches to children - standing behind them and pulling their legs in oversplits behind the line of their body, so much that the children were wincing. This to me looked dangerous and likely to encourage other young DC to try it if they see a teacher doing it, thinking it must be what they need to do! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxi4ballet Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 Just last night DD was looking at instagram of a dance school in UK and there were clips of a teacher doing what looked like extreme stretches to children - standing behind them and pulling their legs in oversplits behind the line of their body, so much that the children were wincing. This to me looked dangerous and likely to encourage other young DC to try it if they see a teacher doing it, thinking it must be what they need to do! Was it a ballet class Amos? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drdance Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 Just last night DD was looking at instagram of a dance school in UK and there were clips of a teacher doing what looked like extreme stretches to children - standing behind them and pulling their legs in oversplits behind the line of their body, so much that the children were wincing. This to me looked dangerous and likely to encourage other young DC to try it if they see a teacher doing it, thinking it must be what they need to do! Where?! I'd be calling child protection services.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amos73 Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 I can't name names on here Dr Dance but it is quite a big school. Hard to know Taxi. The child was on a chair, teacher behind, legs raised up in oversplits and the teacher pulling them back behind the line of her body! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulip Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 In the three top ballet schools my daughter has been in, right up to now she is told to not over turn out. She has flat turn out from the hips but to maintain it everything else must be in place. When she was at a very good programme in Europe it was all about over turning out and how high can you get your leg. Within the first week her foot was so sore that it was a struggle to walk on. Now this school was very caring and very supportive to its students. It wasn't right for my daughter because she was getting injured all the time. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Picturesinthefirelight Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 One particular school that someone I know moved her children too (Dr dance will know who I mean) is forever posting this kind of stuff. Those who say anything are seen to be "jealous" 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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