RB - Romeo and Juliet, Autumn 2015

[Ian Macmillan]

The harlots being 'ladylike'?  Like Lady Mary on Downton?  Those I saw yesterday struck me as vulgar in the extreme, perhaps more so than on previous viewings.  I fear my age must be showing. 

[alison]

Oops, here's a post which didn't go through yesterday. 

 

Obviously the nurse is one of those practical ladies who thinks a husband in the flesh is worth two in exile.  And who cares about a spot of bigamy. 

 

I guess they probably did when they thought they might spend eternity in hell as a result

[alison]

It's been pointed out on another thread that Tybalt casting has now been added:

 

http://www.roh.org.uk/productions/romeo-and-juliet-by-kenneth-macmillan

[Fonty]

Oops, here's a post which didn't go through yesterday. 

 

 

I guess they probably did when they thought they might spend eternity in hell as a result

 

Oh, absolutely, Alison.  They really believed in hell in those days, which makes the Nurse's behaviour so staggering!

 

Something else struck me while I was watching the final pas de deux in the crypt, where Romeo is flinging Juliet's supposed corpse around.  Given that the choreography gives her lifeless arms, should Juliet have beautifully pointed feet?  Always puzzled me a little bit, was it choreographed like that originally?  I am pretty certain I have seen at least one dancer with dangling feet.  Possibly Guillem, I can't remember. And original pictures of Seymour seem to suggest the same, although it is difficult to tell.

[Quintus]

....flinging Juliet's supposed corpse around.  Given that the choreography gives her lifeless arms, should Juliet have beautifully pointed feet?...

 

I'm going with rigor mortis starting at the feet

[Sim]

And while we are at it....why does Juliet struggle over the top of the death bed with a huge stab wound in her stomach when it would be much easier for her to get to Romeo if she just stayed on the floor and crawled along to him that way?? The ending wouldn't have quite as much dramatic impact if she did that, of course!

[Beryl H]

And while we are at it....why does Juliet struggle over the top of the death bed with a huge stab wound in her stomach when it would be much easier for her to get to Romeo if she just stayed on the floor and crawled along to him that way?? The ending wouldn't have quite as much dramatic impact if she did that, of course!

 

On Saturday I saw the moment when Juliet supports herself before falling backwards, I've always wondered how she does it.

[Sim]

I know....I keep waiting for one of them to slither off the bed and onto the floor on top of Romeo, but good for them, it never happens! Like you, I've always wondered how they do that? I can only imagine some very tight and strong leg-clenching!

[Beryl H]

I saw Sarah Lamb lower her left hand onto the base of the tombstone and steady herself before letting go.

 

I've been reading how Lynn Seymour was the only Juliet in the first production to fall into ugly positions in the final pdd, everyone else made pretty shapes, something else to look out for.

[capybara]

There has to be a 'tipping point' somewhere along each Juliet's body beyond which   !  !  But, as her dress is slippery, it can't be easy. 

 

I do recall one very renowned Juliet appearing to use an arm on one occasion to stop herself slithering too far.

Edited September 29, 2015 by capybara

[Fonty]

And while we are at it....why does Juliet struggle over the top of the death bed with a huge stab wound in her stomach when it would be much easier for her to get to Romeo if she just stayed on the floor and crawled along to him that way?? The ending wouldn't have quite as much dramatic impact if she did that, of course!

 

  I always think that as well.  It helps if Juliet does a realistic stagger backwards after stabbing herself, so that she falls elegantly backwards over the death bed. 

[Sim]

That doesn't happen now Fonty....she stabs herself and falls to the floor on the other side of the bed from where Romeo lies. I have never seen a Juliet in the MacMillan version fall backwards onto the bed! Having to claw her way up onto the bed from the floor makes her struggle more apparent, I guess.

[John Mallinson]

And while we are at it....why does Juliet struggle over the top of the death bed with a huge stab wound in her stomach when it would be much easier for her to get to Romeo if she just stayed on the floor and crawled along to him that way?? The ending wouldn't have quite as much dramatic impact if she did that, of course!

 

Am I right in thinking that Juliet's position in the final tableau was inspired by Fuseli's horror painting, The Nightmare?

[Ian Macmillan]

This discussion of the manner of Juliet's death made me go back for another look at a different version that, knowing what's coming right at the end of this short trailer, still makes me wince:

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_p60al8GsM

 

No dagger, but a large shard of glass.

[Ian Macmillan]

I've also spotted a link that sheds some light on the technical aspects of streaming from the ROH:

 

http://www.tvbeurope.com/royal-opera-house-goes-live-romeo-ad-juliet/

[Sim]

Am I right in thinking that Juliet's position in the final tableau was inspired by Fuseli's horror painting, The Nightmare?

You probably are right, John, looking at this painting!

[Sim]

I saw Sarah Lamb lower her left hand onto the base of the tombstone and steady herself before letting go.

 

I've been reading how Lynn Seymour was the only Juliet in the first production to fall into ugly positions in the final pdd, everyone else made pretty shapes, something else to look out for.

Lynn always did things her own way, one of the many reasons she was such an amazing dancer. I read somewhere that when she stabbed herself (as Juliet!)she often, if not always, directed the dagger to her lower stomach so that she was murdering her womb which would never bear Romeo's child. Again, an interesting and individual interpretation.

[Fonty]

I think it is most unfortunate that the only proper record of the orginal MacMillan production is the film starring Fonteyn and Nureyev.  I can understand that from a commercial point of view, this cast was much more likely to sell, but it is such a pity that future generations would get their impressions from Fonteyn's performance, rather than Seymour's, so we have no lasting record of what was actually intended.

 

I remember reading that Fonteyn flatly refused to adopt some of the poses, replacing them with her own elegant, more lady-like positions, and that Nureyev also altered the choreography to suit himself.  Personally, I happen to think that Fonteyn gives a great performance, and Nureyev was always had an animal magnetism, no matter what part he was playing.  But I still would have liked to have seen how the two creators of the roles played the parts.  I am sure those were, or should have been,  the performances by which all others should have measured themselves.   

[penelopesimpson]

It wasn't intended as an insult, I just wondered why you put yourself through going to ROH, as you don't seem to enjoy the performances very much, and as a result resent paying the high prices for good seats. I go to a lot of performances as a punter (in the cheap spots), and not just to rehearsals by the way. I have opinions which widely differ from yours and Ms Penelopesimpson, but don't present them as 'facts' is all. I also feel inclined to defend my favourite dancers, especially when, in my opinion, their performance did not merit a bashing, or indeed when I thought they were rather good. Would you not do the same?

'bashing?'  Is that how you define expressing an opinion?  Odd!  Was absolutely no bashing involved at all, indeed have been at pains to stress the positives whilst giving my opinion.

[Jacqueline]

I know....I keep waiting for one of them to slither off the bed and onto the floor on top of Romeo, but good for them, it never happens! Like you, I've always wondered how they do that? I can only imagine some very tight and strong leg-clenching!

I have also wondered how Juliet manages to remain 'within' the bodice of her gown. Some Juliets have been rather more endowed in that department than others and the struggle across the tomb and then picturesque roll onto her back half over the edge seems fraught with danger. I imagine she is tightly strapped in, despite the apparent looseness of the fabric. It wouldn't be seemly to have to adjust herself in the middle of such trauma. Perhaps this is the sort of thing one thinks of, when a performance is not otherwise quite hitting the emotional spot!

As I recall in the N.B. version, Romeo is dead on the floor, facing the audience and Juliet crawls over and infront of him, pulling him around her like you would a blanket, so she 'dies' in his embrace. Badly described by me, but very affecting to see.

[bangorballetboy]

I have also wondered how Juliet manages to remain 'within' the bodice of her gown. Some Juliets have been rather more endowed in that department than others and the struggle across the tomb and then picturesque roll onto her back half over the edge seems fraught with danger.

 

They don't always succeed...

[Jacqueline]

They don't always succeed...

Really? So what happened, was there an adjustment or did she just let it all hang out and hope nobody would notice?  Was it anyone we know?

Edited September 30, 2015 by Jacqueline

[capybara]

Really? So what happened, was there an adjustment or did she just let it all hang out and hope nobody would notice?  Was it anyone we know?

 

The ones I recall did nothing (how could they, they were dead?) and, yes, the ballerinas were well known!

[alison]

And I certainly remember one Juliet nearly slithering off the tomb

[MAB]

I think it is most unfortunate that the only proper record of the orginal MacMillan production is the film starring Fonteyn and Nureyev.  I can understand that from a commercial point of view, this cast was much more likely to sell, but it is such a pity that future generations would get their impressions from Fonteyn's performance, rather than Seymour's, so we have no lasting record of what was actually intended.

 

I remember reading that Fonteyn flatly refused to adopt some of the poses, replacing them with her own elegant, more lady-like positions, and that Nureyev also altered the choreography to suit himself.  Personally, I happen to think that Fonteyn gives a great performance, and Nureyev was always had an animal magnetism, no matter what part he was playing.  But I still would have liked to have seen how the two creators of the roles played the parts.  I am sure those were, or should have been,  the performances by which all others should have measured themselves.   

 

I don't think it unfortunate at all as Fonteyn's interpretation of the role was much admired whereas Seymour's wasn't universally liked.  After it's release it was shown in cinemas across the country, had it had a different cast it would have played two nights in a London art house to a negligible audience and been forgotten.

 

If you put aside your reservations about MF, it is worth looking at the production as a whole and how the supporting roles were conceived.  The mandolin dance for example looked superb back then without the ludicrous back flips we see today and the whole group danced with a musicality you rarely see now. For me the mandolin dance has now become one of the most wince inducing parts of the ballet.

[FLOSS]

It is a great pity that no part of Seymour's Juliet is available on DVD. I find it extraordinary to think that no one ever managed to capture any part of it  if only because it was one of the great performances of the last century. For me the most effective Juliets are the ones who are not afraid of making ugly shapes.When Seymour danced Juliet the tomb pas de deux was like a horrible caricature of the balcony pas de deux and she was a heavy piece of dead meat that flopped about in a way that most of the recent Juliets seem unable or reluctant to emulate.With other dancers it's an element of their performance that you remember with Tait it was her hands when she was on the floor with Lord Capulet looming over her.You felt that the tension that she was experiencing had found its way into her hands which were suddenly transformed into claws. 

 

The thing about Seymour's performance was that there was much more variety in it than you normally see now. It did not look like a carefully modulated reproduction of a choreographic text.Her movements had an inevitability about them. They were Juliet's thoughts and movements that you were experiencing as an audience member rather than something that she had taken great pains to learn.The contrast between moments of stillness and movement were extremely strong.As Juliet sat still on the bed you felt as if you were drawn into her thoughts and her desperation and the music was not so much the accompaniment  of a stage picture but an integral part of her teeming thoughts.When she rose from the bed you could almost pinpoint the moment at which made up her mind to seek Friar Lawrence's assistance.The section where she runs off cloak flying had far greater urgency and momentum than it has now,and she was still in a panic when she rushed into his cell.Everything was more raw and less ballet like; the retching after she has taken the draught looked very uncomfortable, she really looked as if she was fighting back nausea and she was frightened."What have I taken? Is it poison?" I think that most people would have agreed with David Wall that you forgot that she was dancing.Of course in the tomb scene Seymour had the advantage of a staging that emphasised the horror of the tomb. It is far from clear to me why that part of the staging has not been restored in its entirety.

 

Now I know that Seymour had the gift of apparent spontaneity and was a great dance actress but I don't think that all of her impact in the role was attributable to her dramatic gifts I think that the way the music was played had something to do with it. I also suspect that the great emphasis on technique for its own sake that has been a feature of ballet performances in the last thirty years has something to do with the ballet's impact then and now.There seems to be a general desire to be seen to execute steps correctly whether or not the choreographer set a modified version of the classroom steps.Also I don't think that counting was so prevalent then. I know that MacLeary commented on the problem that he experienced with dancers who didn't see ballet as a theatrical art form and who thought that steps in a ballet should be performed in the same way that they were in class.

 

Let me finish by saying that I recognise that ballet like opera has been in terminal decline since it first became an independent art form.I am aware that concern about technique is not a bad thing as long as the performer has the flexibility of mind to recognise and reproduce the choreographer's steps and style when they dance. Technique is only a means to an end and it shouldn't get in the way of a dancer's performance of a ballet. I still hope to see someone else who makes me forget that they are dancing. 

Edited September 30, 2015 by FLOSS

[alison]

I don't think it unfortunate at all as Fonteyn's interpretation of the role was much admired whereas Seymour's wasn't universally liked.  

 

Nevertheless, it was how the role was conceived, and I for one (and I'd guess a lot of other people who weren't ballet-going in those days) would have appreciated seeing it so that I could see the difference.

 

I still hope to see someone else who makes me forget that they are dancing. 

 

I seem to remember saying something to that effect about a Benjamin/Watson balcony pdd some years ago: it was a Saturday matinee, that much I do recall, but I don't remember the year.

[penelopesimpson]

  I still hope to see someone else who makes me forget that they are dancing. 

Edward Watson

Alina Cojocaru

[cavycapers]

I cannot but always help worry about how creepy Juliet' s bedroom is for a 13 year old. And those horrible pillows with the ridges on. Where are the One Direction posters?

[Mary]

Saw the matinee this afternoon.

It is always a joyful moment to be back in the ROH after the summer break that goes on for so long ( it seems), and this was a great way to start a new season.

 

Cuthbertson/Bonelli . I thought she was a lovely Juliet ,very sweet in the early scenes, and terribly sad in the later ones. In particular she played the morning bedroom scene as pure sorrow, letting her body fall into almost total passivity foreshadowing the tomb scene to come. This worked well though I think there needs to be perhaps more of a mixture of emotions here( of ecstatic joy turning to despair when she realises Romeo has to leave).

Her scene with Paris when she gives in to her parents was truly disturbing( I can't understand why people on the thread 'like' Paris! He is basically prepared to force Juliet if she won't have him- I think we are meant to understand that he is threatenng her physically in this scene)

Her final scene was wrenchingly sad and I noticed in particular the way she played the death throes- after the discussion on this thread about pretty v ugly postures-Cuthbertson seemed to be veering towards the latter    -very effectively. It wasn't pretty at all-but tragic.

It was great to see her on good form after the injury problems and she had many cheers and a huge number of flowers, deservedly so. She and Bonelli look good together, and the balcony pas de deux was beautiful but I was just marginally less taken with them in Act 1 in the ballroom.There just didn't seem to be quite the spark of excitement I felt with Lamb/ Mc Rae.

 

Cervera gave a very good Mercutio, James Hay was lively and charming and everyone's favourite Gary Avis made something  new of the Lord Capulet role-more of the concerned father who eventually turns nasty out of impatience and frustration- and I did admire the way he danced in the ballroom with such commanding sweeps of the arm and disdainful turns of the head.

The orchestra played very well with no  noticeable problems, -at any rate I didn't notice any.

 

I left pondering how much there is to enjoy in this fabulous ballet,-(I have see it often over about 30 years)-of course not every performance is perfect in every way. But there is so much to it, that there is always something to enjoy and  admire and indeed discover.  It did seem to me to be looking good:  the cleaning up of a lot of the background action has brought the main events into sharper relief- perhaps.

 

Certainly I noticed this more than at the cinema relay where, of course, the close-ups do stop you seeing the whole picture all the way through.

[cavycapers]

"In particular she played the morning bedroom scene as pure sorrow, letting her body fall into almost total passivity foreshadowing the tomb scene to come. This worked well though I think there needs to be perhaps more of a mixture of emotions here( of ecstatic joy turning to despair when she realises Romeo has to leave).

Her scene with Paris when she gives in to her parents was truly disturbing( I can't understand why people on the thread 'like' Paris! He is basically prepared to force Juliet if she won't have him- I think we are meant to understand that he is threatenng her physically in this scene)"

 

This is very interesting. The bedroom morning pas de deux is my favourite scene, but I don't think it should be played as all despairing. The music has moments of soaring hope as well as despair. My favourite portrayal of this scene is by Allesandra Ferri and Wayne Eagling from 1984, available on You Tube, in which she jumps up at him like a puppy near the end and kisses him all over his face, and he shakes her not to be foolish. I'm not sure she should be too passive at this point, they are young and alive and have jus spent their first night together. It should contrast highly with the tomb scene and the poignancy of Romeo trying to shape her body into the same poses. (Althouh it always makes me wonder, if R and J are representing having sex in the morning pas de deux, does that make the tomb scene necromancy? Teehee).

 

Which Paris was it that you saw, Mary? I think some are played as much crueller than others. Certainly, Ryoichi Hirano played him (beautifully) as courteous but uncomprehending. And I have always had the impression that any reluctance Juliet shows towards him is from shyness not repulsion. It is only after meeting Romeo that her feelings change.

 

And on this note, can anyone tell me please where to find the full cast list for each perf? Looked everywhere on ROH website.

Edited October 1, 2015 by cavycapers

[FLOSS]

No Cavycapers not "necromancy" which is calling up the dead to tell you about the future.Think Saul and the witch of Endor.I think you mean necrophilia.I'm somewhat surprised that no one raised any objection to that aspect of the choreography when the ballet was first performed.1965 seems several centuries ago as far as what is deemed acceptable on stage is concerned. People were more readily shocked than they are now.Perhaps the decision to give Fonteyn and Nureyev the first night wasn't just about box office after all.Their more balletic approach did ensure that the ballet was greeted with universal enthusiasm. Would the response have been the same if the first performance had been danced by Seymour and Gable giving their far more visceral and realistic account of the choreography? This is a genuine enquiry. As far as I am concerned Seymour was one of the greatest dancers that I have ever seen and certainly the best dance actress although Marcia Haydee comes a very close second.But what would the reaction have been on the first night if the originators of the roles had danced them?

Edited October 2, 2015 by FLOSS

[cavycapers]

Oh yes, Floss, you're right of course! Necrophilia not necromancy. Teehee.

Some interesting thought 're Fonteyn and Nureyev too.