Time for Mr. O'Hare to put in a call to Alina Cojocaru?

[Fonty]

Has O'Hare said publicly why he has brought in Salenko to dance in Two Pigeons?  I don't really know anything about her. 

 

It has been a while since I saw that particular ballet, but I would have thought the Young Girl would be an ideal role for some of the younger dancers mentioned.  Not as exhausting as some of the full length ballets, but with plenty of opportunity to display their dramatic qualities as well as their dancing. 

 

And London audiences love to see home grown dancers getting their chances, especially in such a delightful ballet. 

[alison]

Has O'Hare said publicly why he has brought in Salenko to dance in Two Pigeons?

 

I assumed it was to partner McRae.  Does she have any Ashton pedigree?

[Petunia]

http://www.staatsballett-berlin.de/de/ensemble/iana-salenko/38

 

She's Ukrainian and here in Berlin since 2005.

[Vanartus]

And she's very good!

[Guest Ali Pasha]

Hallo Berlin ...... ich bin auch "ein Berliner" ! Have been visiting Berlin yearly since 1991 for opera

at the Staats & Deutsche, did not care for ballet thinking it would be "beneath my station" - how I

regret that now ... now that I know the young Malakhov, Vishneva and Semionova were all there

for starters. Schade !

Now : read the posts with many people complaining about Natasha's dropout at the beginning of

the year. What should I say ?? I flew in from Istanbul specially for the January 5th performance !!

Was so relieved to find out that Tsgankova was the replacement - with hindsight predictable but

when you have just flown in and rushed to the ROH after dropping you luggage at the hotel to

find out Natasha is out ... what a relief. I am not going to disparage the other RB principals ......

but may I be allowed to say that with the exception of imports RB principals have always been

known for their "musicality" rather than high extensions !! Musicality being an intangible meta-

physical quality that the Brits can pull and stretch at their leisure to balance out the lack of high

extensions ...... if you know what I mean (!)

[Harwel]

 

I am not going to disparage the other RB principals ......[/size]

but may I be allowed to say that with the exception of imports RB principals have always been

known for their "musicality" rather than high extensions !! Musicality being an intangible meta-

physical quality that the Brits can pull and stretch at their leisure to balance out the lack of high

extensions ...... if you know what I mean (!)

Hmmm - you clearly haven't seen any RB principles in a while. And on a personal level, I value musicality above gymnastics - nice to have both of course!

[Guest Ali Pasha]

Dear Harwel you are right : it has been a while since I was a regular balletgoer at the ROH

during the 90s. However I and my wife were rather dissatisfied with the performance of the

RB CdB and defected to Paris at the beginning of this millennium. Nowadays we travel to

London only when the Bolshoi or the Mariinsky are in residence at the ROH. Starting last

January I have placed these two companies at the head of my list and have been to Russia

thrice this year : was in Mockba over the weekend and saw two different casts of "Jizel". I

have posted my views at the bottom of the thread "Bolshoi 2015-16 season live cinecasts"

if you would be interested. I find Russian classical ballet a seriously addictive combination

of athleticism and artistry ....... difficult to accept Paris standards after getting hooked on

this ...... let alone London !

[Jan McNulty]

I suppose it depends on what you are looking for.  I always look for artistry and prefer not to see 6 o'clock extensions unless they have been choreographed in.

 

I know what you mean about RB disillusionment Ali Pasha as I used to be a semi-regular but got fed up around the same time as you.  However, I think those doldrums have largely passed so I hope, at the least, you will enjoy some of the cinema broadcasts.

 

I'm only an infrequent visitor to RB these days but have certainly enjoyed the performances I have seen over the last couple of years (and not just because of one particular dancer!).

[alison]

I am not going to disparage the other RB principals ......

but may I be allowed to say that with the exception of imports RB principals have always been

known for their "musicality" rather than high extensions !!

 

Well, all I can say is "thank goodness for that!"  I don't actually go to the ballet specifically to watch dancers putting their legs up around their ears - and as far as I'm concerned high extensions should be banned from all but modern choreography.  As I've said before, just because you *can* doesn't mean you *should*.

[Fonty]

Absolutely agree, Alison.

 

I have no problem with someone coming from Berlin, or any other company for that matter, as a guest Principal with the RB, if they have a unique talent that cannot be filled by any current dancer in the RB's ranks. 

 

I am sure Salenko is a very good dancer, I never doubted that for one minute.  I wasn't questioning her pedigree, merely the fact that she has been invited specially to dance in an Ashton ballet that hasn't been performed for years in London.  She doesn't appear to be a noted Ashton dancer, unless, of course, the information I have found on the web is lacking updates, and she has been dancing the Young Girl to universal acclaim all round the world.

 

So the answer appears to be that she has been brought in specially as a partner for McRae in this ballet.  Which brings a whole new set of questions to mind! 

[Nina G.]

 

 

but may I be allowed to say that with the exception of imports RB principals have always been

known for their "musicality" rather than high extensions !! Musicality being an intangible meta-

physical quality that the Brits can pull and stretch at their leisure to balance out the lack of high

extensions ...... if you know what I mean (!)

 

 

This is precisely one of the many magnificent qualities of The Royal Ballet: the musicality of their dancers and their highly dramatic skills. I can assure you there are plenty of dancers at The Royal Ballet who have the most amazing high "six o'clock" extensions but they use it only when necessary (and not as a means to show off!) such as in work by Wayne McGregor.

The Royal ballerinas understand the need to control it when the choreography demands it. It is far easier to whack out a six o'clock extension than to control it!  

 

They do not "pull and stretch their musicality at their leisure in order to balance out lack of high extensions".  I am afraid to say Mr. Ali Pasha you've got that totally wrong.

[alison]

Actually, I'd have thought the presence of high extensions was more likely to "pull and stretch" the musicality, given that the accepted thinking seems to be that it takes longer to get the leg into a high extension, thus distorting and/or slowing down the music ...

[Fonty]

Well, clearly Mr Pasha prefers the muscular Russian style of dancing. 

 

I agree that in some of the more showy ballets this is wonderful.  However,  there is a fine balance between athleticism and artistry, and many times the Russians prefer the former over the latter, to the detriment of the whole piece.  IMO of course.   

[Fiz]

Actually Mr O'Hare needs to ask back Alina and Johan. I miss them dancing so much! *Howls and drums heels*

[MAB]

I have long admired the Paris based ballet critic Katherine Kanter who has been railing against high extensions for years, according to her research the practice is actually physically harmful.  My local osteopath is ballet specialist Margaret Papoutsis and when I asked her opinion on 6 o'clocks,  she replied 'they bring me in a great deal of work'.

 

From the artistic point of view they are hideous and should have no place in classical ballets at all.  There are dancers that make a fetish of slamming their legs against their ears, but these are dancers that habitually give artistically void performances.  Not all the Russians fall into that trap, but it's worth noting that two of the Kirov's finest, Osmolkova (so perfectly musical I've actually cried at the sheer beauty of her performances) and Novikova, have never been made principals.  I feel in Russia there are some less than wonderful people running the show, but outstanding dancers do emerge against the odds.

[penelopesimpson]

I appreciate this is a selfish point of view, BUT I don't want to see the incomparable Cojocaru in an inferior version of Romeo and Juliet with a less than satisfactory partner in a theatre that is astonishingly uncomfortable. This wonderful ballerina should be at ROH

[Anna C]

But Ms Cojocaru left RB of her own accord. She's obviously happy at ENB, and as a company it has many very fine dancers. I see her move as a sideways step by her own choice, and we should be happy for her.

 

With regards to the uncomfortable theatre, I find some seats at the ROH equally uncomfortable.

[Melody]

Hallo Berlin ...... ich bin auch "ein Berliner" ! Have been visiting Berlin yearly since 1991 for opera

at the Staats & Deutsche, did not care for ballet thinking it would be "beneath my station" - how I

regret that now ... now that I know the young Malakhov, Vishneva and Semionova were all there

for starters. Schade !

Now : read the posts with many people complaining about Natasha's dropout at the beginning of

the year. What should I say ?? I flew in from Istanbul specially for the January 5th performance !!

Was so relieved to find out that Tsgankova was the replacement - with hindsight predictable but

when you have just flown in and rushed to the ROH after dropping you luggage at the hotel to

find out Natasha is out ... what a relief. I am not going to disparage the other RB principals ......

but may I be allowed to say that with the exception of imports RB principals have always been

known for their "musicality" rather than high extensions !! Musicality being an intangible meta-

physical quality that the Brits can pull and stretch at their leisure to balance out the lack of high

extensions ...... if you know what I mean (!)

If it were true that British dancers rely on "musicality" as opposed to musicality, I'd be a little more inclined to agree with you. I just don't think they're using musicality as an excuse to avoid acrobatics they're physically incapable of managing, since their dancing in contemporary choreography shows that they're very well able to perform these contortions if required to. British ballet relies a lot more than Russian ballet on fast footwork, which isn't especially compatible with constant striving to lift the legs to the extreme extent of physical possibility. I gather you don't appreciate this sort of dancing, and I know it's easy to equate "don't like" with "no good," but actually the two aren't the same.

 

I guess it's a matter of taste, but I actually don't like the Bolshoi style, which to me is balanced somewhere between flashiness and outright showing off. With the deadly slow music (which is needed to accommodate all the high extensions by all the tall ballerinas) and the constant stopping in the middle of pas de deux to take applause, the whole thing becomes less of an artistic experience and more like Olympic rhythmic gymnastics routines. I'm not saying they aren't good, because they obviously are, but it usually leaves me completely cold.

Edited October 16, 2015 by Melody

[Jan McNulty]

I appreciate this is a selfish point of view, BUT I don't want to see the incomparable Cojocaru in an inferior version of Romeo and Juliet with a less than satisfactory partner in a theatre that is astonishingly uncomfortable. This wonderful ballerina should be at ROH

 

 

But Ms Cojocaru left RB of her own accord. She's obviously happy at ENB, and as a company it has many very fine dancers. I see her move as a sideways step by her own choice, and we should be happy for her.

 

With regards to the uncomfortable theatre, I find some seats at the ROH equally uncomfortable.

 

 

Exactly Anna!

 

Penelope (if I may call you that) I find your comment about ENB's Nureyev production incredibly rude.  It may not be my favourite production (and neither is the MacMillan as it happens) but it is hardly inferior and ENB has got some wonderful interpreters of the various roles.

[Melody]

This wonderful ballerina was at RB; as Anna said, she left of her own accord, and she's still based in London so audiences who saw her at RB can still see her at ENB. That's something to be grateful for, because she could have gone anywhere. In the meantime RB has some exciting new talent of its own which isn't being eclipsed by high-profile imports but is being given a chance to shine. Best of both worlds, really.

[FLOSS]

We all see things differently. If you see ballet as athleticism with a symphony orchestra that is absolutely fine but don't ask me to come and see it. I have always understood that the reason that the Russian companies fell into the trap of athletic dancing after the Revolution  was because they were suddenly faced with a new unsophisticated ballet audience who would appreciate and understand the the wow factor in a performance but not the subtleties of classical dance.The fact that the capital  was moved from Petrograd to Moscow probably contributed to this  development as even before the Revolution the dancers at the Mariinsky, if the autobiographies accurately reflect the views of the many rather than merely the author's opinion, seemed to have regarded the Bolshoi dancers as circus performers rather than artists.

 

Danilova made some interesting comments about the development of ballet in Russia and the West in her autobiography Choura published in 1988.

 

" I can see in the Soviet style an extension of the way that I was trained, but I think that what happened here in our century is much more interesting than what happened there.Somehow in Russia ballet has become the exhibition of dancing. Soviet dancers no longer want to show the story or the mood so much as they want to show us their technique- this one can turn three times in the air, lifting both his legs,and that one can do something else. "

 

The other thing is that in Russian choreography in the twentieth century the vocabulary for male dancers seems to have been reduced to jumping and technical tricks are not disguised in any way.Acrobatic and athletic  movements are created as obvious show stopping moments and stuffed into the choreography with little consideration for their context as far as story telling is concerned. If a male dancer is going to perform a series of pirouettes you see his lengthy and careful preparation.You can't miss the performance of the steps because the preparation rather than being disguised is advertised. Here is a bum lift !!.Look !. Applaud.While in an Ashton ballet the bravura doesn't draw attention to itself and is embedded in the story telling. The bum lift at the end of the Fanny Elssler pas de deux is the culmination of a pas in which both dancers perform a series of choreographic fireworks but the sequence tells the audience about the characters and their feelings for each other and none of the tricks with the exception of the lift at the end draws attention to itself because the performer has to make it look effortless and elegant.

 

Fokine wrote somewhere that the ballet audience tends to be impressed by tricks which look difficult but are relatively easy to perform but are unaware of how difficult it is to perform apparently simple steps perfectly.The problem would appear to be that Ashton, Cranko, MacMillan, Robbins and Balanchine made the mistake of not advertising how difficult their choreography is.I seem to recall dancers at the Mariinsky cast as Sylvia saying that it was the most difficult ballet that they had ever danced. I sometimes wonder whether the problem with the Ashton repertory as far audiences are concerned is that it because the dancers have to make it look easy and natural the audience assumes that anyone could dance it and as far as dancers are concerned they get no credit for the difficulties they have mastered?

Edited October 16, 2015 by FLOSS

[billboyd]

This thread should be removed.

 

The very title is rude and offensive. 

[Melody]

Bill, this thread's been around for a month, along with its title. Bit late to remove it on account of the title now, especially as it's generated some really interesting discussion.

[billboyd]

True, Melody - but, I hope you an see my drift.

[Anna C]

I certainly think there's been an unfortunate tendency among some posters to see dancers as performing robots, purely there for the audience's entertainment. These are professional artists we are discussing, with minds and career aspirations of their own. Not only is it disrespectful IMHO to decide where someone "should be" because that's where you want them to be, it's also insulting to the current RB Principals.

[Jan McNulty]

I think Bill, if this thread has proved OVER AND OVER AGAIN, there is absolutely no need whatsoever for Mr O'Hare to call in anyone at all!

 

There have been some interesting discussion points raised, even if I have, personally, disagreed with some of the opinions stated.

[Fonty]

Yes, Janet, I agree.

 

I don't think the title is rude in any way.  In fact, it has started a thoughtful and interesting discussion ranging over a variety of issues.

 

Which is exactly what a chat forum is for, isn't it?

[sarahw]

Totally agree Fonty.

 

Of course comments have been made about professional dancers - they are artists and comments will be made - if they can't raise feelings amongst audiences they haven't done their job. And they will be very thick skinned - to get this far they'll have heard worse.

 

I don't think anyone has been unfair.

[aileen]

I don't know AC but it seems to me that she is very happy with her situation as she has a 'home' company in ENB plus a great deal of freedom to guest with other companies, which she obviously values. A bonus to fans is that she can now be seen in performances outside London. As for the Nureyev R&J, I've not seen it but it is in the rep of the POB and La Scala and so it must have some merits.

 

Moving slightly off-track, there are many lovely ballerinas to be seen outside the RB. Go and see Celine Gittens and Momoko Hirata for starters.

[MAB]

We all see things differently. If you see ballet as athleticism with a symphony orchestra that is absolutely fine but don't ask me to come and see it. I have always understood that the reason that the Russian companies fell into the trap of athletic dancing after the Revolution  was because they were suddenly faced with a new unsophisticated ballet audience who would appreciate and understand the the wow factor in a performance but not the subtleties of classical dance.The fact that the capital  was moved from Petrograd to Moscow probably contributed to this  development as even before the Revolution the dancers at the Mariinsky, if the autobiographies accurately reflect the views of the many rather than merely the author's opinion, seemed to have regarded the Bolshoi dancers as circus performers rather than artists.

 

 

Okay, I get it, you don't like the Bolshoi, but to collude with some dancer of the past with possibly an axe to grind in the view that it's dancers are 'circus performers' is patently absurd.  Galina Ulanova spent almost her entire career as the Bolshoi's prima and was worshiped for her elegance and refinement by the "unsophisticated" mass audiences whose intelligence you clearly underestimate.

 

Sadly I never saw Ulanova, but the company has produced some of the greatest performers of the 20th century and if your personal prejudices have kept you from seeing dancers such as Maximova, Vladimir Vasiliev and Maris Liepa , that is your loss. and would indicate your experience of world ballet is limited.

 

Today it is the Kirov, not the Bolshoi, that specializes in the gymnastics that I abhor and it is worth remembering that the Bolshoi's current prima, Zakharova, (untouchable due to her political associations, but that's another story) is actually Kirov trained.  For the rest of the company Maria Alexandrova has possibly the most perfect ballet technique of any female dancer in the world today and the company also boasts one of that increasingly rare breed, a true danseur noble, in the shape of Vladislav Lantratov, I could go on with listing the attributes of the many fine dancers that make the company one of the worlds greatest.

 

Just because someone comes on here and ignorantly slags off the Royal Ballet, that is no excuse to retaliate but attacking another company and its dancers.

[annamicro]

I appreciate this is a selfish point of view, BUT I don't want to see the incomparable Cojocaru in an inferior version of Romeo and Juliet with a less than satisfactory partner in a theatre that is astonishingly uncomfortable. This wonderful ballerina should be at ROH

 

Which theatre is uncomfortable? My seat in Bristol was just perfect.

 

Which is the inferior version of Romeo and Juliet? Cojocaru is absolutely outstanding in Neumeier version (a wonderful work): "Julia" is probably one of her finest roles. I don't like that much Nureyev version, but in some moments it's my favorite and for sure it's grander than any other and Alina was marvelous dancing it.

 

In Bristol she danced her 6th version of Romeo and Juliet (all based on Prokofiev music, it would be interesting to see her also in Berlioz based works) and having seen her in all of them I can say that the six are true masterpieces when put in the hands of a real artist as Alina is.

Regarding the partnerships, nobody can take the place of Johan Kobborg, not just for the chemistry he has with Cojocaru, but also for his personal acting and partnering skills, but Cojocaru had a fantastic result with Friedemann Vogel in the Deane version and, according to reports, in the MacMillan with La Scala in Japan (she danced 5 times MacMillan Juliet also in Milan, unfortunately with irrelevant Romeos); Revazov, Trusch and Hernandez proved themselves to be great Romeos and IMO superior to anybody the Royal Ballet can offer (or has offered in her last seasons) her (excluding Muntagirov).

 

I can agree that Cojocaru should be at the ROH because it's a magnificent venue, but that's not enough: personally I prefer to see her with ENB, Hamburg Ballet and Romanian National Ballet, her current companies. The world is much bigger than Bow Street and very interesting. :-)

Edited October 16, 2015 by annamicro

[Jan McNulty]

It's funny, and wonderful, how we all see things differently.  I saw the Neumeier production in Copenhagen and positively loathed the production (but admired the performances).

[Sim]

MAB....please note that the company has not been called The Kirov for years; it is now the Maryinsky and I know that they really don't like still being referred to as The Kirov.

 

On another matter....it seems that this thread is starting to go in a bit of a nasty direction, and I would once again ask everybody to please remain polite when disagreeing with each other. This is an interesting thread and we don't want to have to stop it if it degenerates. Many thanks to all for bearing this in mind.