News from Upper School Auditions

[joemill]

To be honest mum in a spin I am totally confused and bewildered about the reserve list procedures!!! X

[jade]

Congratulations meggy13, that is fantastic news well done x

[Harwel]

Congratulations to your daughter meggy13. That is fantastic news. She auditioned and she got a coveted place out of hundreds of others. She clearly has what they are looking for. Ramberts audition procedure is clearly far from transparent!

[2dancersmum]

I must admit to feeling a bit sad reading this thread with the phrases 'congratulations ..... but', "The scenario outlined in the posts above would equate to someone who unsuccessfully auditioned for a company position then being cast in a performance with the same company over those that did better in the auditions" and "arrived in this situation through no fault of her own" - all with reference to one person being offered a place at a school over others

 

It has been said time and time again that the audition process is far from transparent.  Can we not just celebrate achievements without questioning them?  To someone not involved in this audition process this year, it looks like the recalls were perhaps to look again that those they had not quite made their minds up about.  And yes this does happen in the industry also.  DD and several of her friends attended auditions recently.  Some of them were asked to go back for a recall, others got a no from first auditions and others heard nothing.  The first 2 offers came for those in the 'heard nothing category' ie not a no and not a recall either.

 

It would be far better if schools could be more open about their audition processes.  Some of them are and we understand the process even if the how they choose who to offer places to will always remain a mystery

[Jazzpaws]

I think this should be left now with huge congratulations to Meggy13's DD - such lovely news

Fingers crossed that others hear good news soon

[joemill]

I would just like to say that if is the case that someone has been offered a place who did not make the reserve list then I feel what is even the point of the reserve list being put in place.

I am genuinely happy about the place being offered but maybe just not with they way it has been offered if you can see what I am saying. or am I just digging myself deeper,, I hope not x

[Tulip]

Congratulations to all the offered places, fingers crossed for those on a waiting list and good luck to candidates who got a no. As parents and therefore outsiders there is no point trying to analyse how schools recruit, that is up to them. It is not their responsibility if candidates have had to pay travel, accommodation, audition fees, they just want the right student for their school, end off. To point out it only gets worse when they start looking for professional jobs.

[Jazzpaws]

Wishing your DD  the very best Tulip xx

[afab]

Gosh afab that does sound exhausting......good job you are on French trains and not the UK Southern service at least!! Although having said that yesterday everything was bang on time for the first time for weeks(I have to go up to London at least once a week)

 

Fingers crossed for DD2 and does that mean DD3 is now studying vocationally in France?

So news from yesterday... Train wise, everything went well after the difficult start and DD2 was on time on stage! Phew...

Audition wise, not so good! She got to the final last year but it didn't happen this year even though she has progressed a lot and one of her friends who was offered a place last year and didn't take it, didn't even get the final this year     As someone said about Rambert, there is no point trying to second guess things as I have learned over the last 10 years!!!

 

DD2 has learned not to stress about auditions so she's already planned her next one and especially next year as those will be very important indeed... 

 

Yes Lin, DD3 has been studying ballet vocationally in France for a year now but next year she will go to DD1's old school. A vocational school as well but a multidiscipline one as ballet is not really her thing. She'll be doing ballet, jazz, contemporary, theatre, singing and MT... A bit like The Hammond I suppose...

[Lildancer96]

I don't think we will ever work out what goes on behind auditions..I remember a couple of years ago a girl being offered a place at Elmhurst who hadn't made finals. The schools can have who they want and don't have to justify their decisions ... Very well done to your daughter meggy - she has a place whatever the route she took to get there and that's wonderful news!

[Jazzpaws]

So news from yesterday... Train wise, everything went well after the difficult start and DD2 was on time on stage! Phew...

Audition wise, not so good! She got to the final last year but it didn't happen this year even though she has progressed a lot and one of her friends who was offered a place last year and didn't take it, didn't even get the final this year     As someone said about Rambert, there is no point trying to second guess things as I have learned over the last 10 years!!!

 

DD2 has learned not to stress about auditions so she's already planned her next one and especially next year as those will be very important indeed... 

 

Yes Lin, DD3 has been studying ballet vocationally in France for a year now but next year she will go to DD1's old school. A vocational school as well but a multidiscipline one as ballet is not really her thing. She'll be doing ballet, jazz, contemporary, theatre, singing and MT... A bit like The Hammond I suppose...

Goodness me ! 3 DD's afab - it's a wonder you are sane x

[sarahw]

Hats off to you afab - I had to lie down after reading about your dds!

[invisiblecircus]

Is this really the case? The scenario outlined in the posts above would equate to someone who unsuccessfully auditioned for a company position then being cast in a performance with the same company over those that did better in the auditions.

 

Yes it really does happen to people auditioning for companies, it's not even hugely unusual, certainly much less so than in auditions for schools. In fact, in company auditions there is rarely if ever a "no" letter. It is understood and often said at the start of the audition that if you don't hear anything, you didn't get a job. It actually happened to me once that I went for an audition and didn't make the first cut. Some people were asked to stay and from those, some contracts were offered. Some weeks later, I got a call offering me a contract! You don't always find out why decisions like this are made but in this case, I was initially rejected because I was too tall and there would be no one to partner me. It then happened that a dancer already with the company (the audition was for a specific project) left and there was then a vacancy for a taller dancer. It can also happen when directors are auditioning for something in particular and an auditionee isn't what they're looking for for that job but they're so inspired by them that they create a role for them.

 

Meggy's post was brief and in fact did not mention that her daughter originally received a "no." She didn't even specifically say the "yes" was from Rambert, but however the "yes" came about, well done on getting a place!

[joemill]

Sorry to drag this on but the post was on about rambert and that she had just been offered a place!!!

[CeliB]

I have to say (with no vested interest as my DS already has the place he wants and has never applied to any UK schools) that if schools and companies had to adhere to employment law or an equivalent (in the way public service organisations do, and with the same level of transparency) it would save a great deal of heartache and stress. And not because decisions would necessarily be challenged- we can all appreciate that companies and schools experience change in who they already have and who they need to appoint achieve a balance (in the same way that most organisations have a mix of different skill sets in their departments), but there's no reason at all why this should be kept such a big secret...

 

Also given that people are often charged quite a lot of money to attend these auditions it wouldn't hurt to provide a reasonable amount of feedback (one assumes the decision making committee has to sit and discuss and then record their discussions- why not make a summary of this discussion available to the applicant? if you apply for a job you are allowed to ask to see your interview documentation, and always get feedback...).

 

In most other areas appointment processes have become transparent and recorded precisely to avoid systematic bias (eg ageism, sexism, racism) and to try and make the system more fair. Why should dance be able to remain shrouded in mystery? Many of the schools and companies have access to public funding, maybe they should be more answerable to the public who are funding them!

[Skinted]

I have to say (with no vested interest as my DS already has the place he wants and has never applied to any UK schools) that if schools and companies had to adhere to employment law or an equivalent (in the way public service organisations do, and with the same level of transparency) it would save a great deal of heartache and stress. And not because decisions would necessarily be challenged- we can all appreciate that companies and schools experience change in who they already have and who they need to appoint achieve a balance (in the same way that most organisations have a mix of different skill sets in their departments), but there's no reason at all why this should be kept such a big secret...

 

Also given that people are often charged quite a lot of money to attend these auditions it wouldn't hurt to provide a reasonable amount of feedback (one assumes the decision making committee has to sit and discuss and then record their discussions- why not make a summary of this discussion available to the applicant? if you apply for a job you are allowed to ask to see your interview documentation, and always get feedback...).

 

In most other areas appointment processes have become transparent and recorded precisely to avoid systematic bias (eg ageism, sexism, racism) and to try and make the system more fair. Why should dance be able to remain shrouded in mystery? Many of the schools and companies have access to public funding, maybe they should be more answerable to the public who are funding them!

My goodness celib, your post echoes my sentiments exactly!

[Interested Parent]

My DD attended an audition and was offered a place at KS Dance. After the audition every dancer with their parent was interviewed and given both positive and constructive feedback which was gratefully received. It was the first 6th form audition she did and certainly helped as she went through the audition process. I understand that this level of feedback is probably not realistic for the bigger school with more auditionees, but surely something for those who reach finals would be practical.

[SwaybackSapphire]

We are a few years off 6th form auditions, but I have always felt that you should have, or be able to request feedback from a final audition.

[sophika9899]

I'm sorry but I don't agree that feedback should be given. Firstly, it would be a logistical nightmare as there are too many at finals but most importantly, the reasons that schools don't take some candidates are as simple as: too fat, too short, not flexible, no turnout, head too big, boobs too big, no musicality etc etc. Now try explaining that to an impressionable, sensitive young girl/boy. So much better to be told that THIS time it's a no but please try again next year. Then mum can comfort and reassure and the child can pick herself up and try again. What if the reason is that her feet aren't right for ballet? There's not very much that can be done about that, therefore, a devastating thing to hear. The schools know what they're doing. This isn't the job market which deals with adults. It's the world of ballet where sensitive young souls may well have their dreams shattered with the wrong feedback. CeliB, I would hate my daughter to be privy to the discussion made by the panel at her audition. I want to be able to tell her that she was fantastic and beautiful at the audition but the competition was too fierce without her turning round to me and saying, actually mum they said it was because I have flat feet.

[Farawaydancer]

I'm sorry but I don't agree that feedback should be given. Firstly, it would be a logistical nightmare as there are too many at finals but most importantly, the reasons that schools don't take some candidates are as simple as: too fat, too short, not flexible, no turnout, head too big, boobs too big, no musicality etc etc. Now try explaining that to an impressionable, sensitive young girl/boy. So much better to be told that THIS time it's a no but please try again next year. Then mum can comfort and reassure and the child can pick herself up and try again. What if the reason is that her feet aren't right for ballet? There's not very much that can be done about that, therefore, a devastating thing to hear. The schools know what they're doing. This isn't the job market which deals with adults. It's the world of ballet where sensitive young souls may well have their dreams shattered with the wrong feedback. CeliB, I would hate my daughter to be privy to the discussion made by the panel at her audition. I want to be able to tell her that she was fantastic and beautiful at the audition but the competition was too fierce without her turning round to me and saying, actually mum they said it was because I have flat feet.

[hfbrew]

I'm sorry but I don't agree that feedback should be given. Firstly, it would be a logistical nightmare as there are too many at finals but most importantly, the reasons that schools don't take some candidates are as simple as: too fat, too short, not flexible, no turnout, head too big, boobs too big, no musicality etc etc. Now try explaining that to an impressionable, sensitive young girl/boy. So much better to be told that THIS time it's a no but please try again next year. Then mum can comfort and reassure and the child can pick herself up and try again. What if the reason is that her feet aren't right for ballet? There's not very much that can be done about that, therefore, a devastating thing to hear. The schools know what they're doing. This isn't the job market which deals with adults. It's the world of ballet where sensitive young souls may well have their dreams shattered with the wrong feedback. CeliB, I would hate my daughter to be privy to the discussion made by the panel at her audition. I want to be able to tell her that she was fantastic and beautiful at the audition but the competition was too fierce without her turning round to me and saying, actually mum they said it was because I have flat feet.

And it would still be a subjective view too. But someone getting such feedback could take it as an absolute truth and then give up trying elsewhere.

 

Had some of ds friends taken to heart some of the feedback they got given after preliminary auditions for US about why they weren't cut out for US or a even classical Ballet career then audiences today would be deprived of some lovely dancers who are now dancing professionally in well known companies.

 

Also, although feedback can be useful, sheer numbers of those auditioning would surely impact on length of time getting results out and costs. Auditions cost enough as it is. And in the case of places who get hundreds of applicants there is no guarantee that the feedback would be pertinent and personal to each auditionee.

Edited May 21, 2015 by hfbrew

[SwaybackSapphire]

That is fair enough, and I agree with you Hfbrew, but I still feel that you should be able to ask for feedback. ????

 

Wishing all those still on waiting lists good luck

Edited May 21, 2015 by SwaybackSapphire

[Interested Parent]

I say again our feedback was positive and constructive. It helped my daughter take into consideration the comments and use that information for the better. I can only go on our experience. It's very similar to having your performance appraisal at work, you're not told you're rubbish at something but you are told how to improve based on their expert knowledge.

[Moneypenny]

I agree it's frustrating to get a no without any idea whatsoever as to why, and we have been there. However, if it were possible to ask for feedback I should imagine that every single parent of a child who received a no would ask for it and the schools would be inundated. These schools audition hundreds of kids every year and I just don't see how they would have the time or resources to provide feedback to everyone. At the end of the day, every member of staff is involved day to day in actually running the school for the kids that are already in it and to provide so much feedback to so many people after several auditions would be incredibly time consuming and not best use of their resources.

[SwaybackSapphire]

Absolutely then forgive my ignorance moneypenny, I didn't realise so many were taken through, agree that it would be a logistical nightmare! ????

[hfbrew]

Sometimes it is possible for a teacher who asks, to get feedback. I got this about students on JA/MA waiting lists.

 

It can also be helpful to get advice from approachable teachers at summer schools. They can sometimes suggest or give insight as to why a student may or may not be suitable for a particular place, especially if they have taught at said schools.

[taxi4ballet]

Sometimes, also, it may simply be that the school has (say) 20 places and there are 23 or 24 students they would really like to have, and who are ideal and eminently suitable. How do they decide which ones to take? It could be that they have to go on their own personal preference or 'gut' instinct.

 

How would they be able to explain that decision in feedback?

[CeliB]

I take your point about numbers- but this is not asking for a 20 page essay- a few lines perhaps. Or they could have a system where preliminary auditionees dont get feedback but surely they could manage feedback for those who make it to finals at very least?

 

Also not giving feedback because its too cruel? I'm not sure I agree that the answer is not to get any feedback at all. Years ago patients weren't allowed to see their medical notes and Dr's wrote all sorts of horrible subjective comments about their patients which adversely impacted on the way other clinicans treated them. Now they don't because they know the notes are publically visible. Perhaps audition panels could be trusted/expected to be capable of giving feedback in ways that don't include comments like 'you are simply too fat and ugly to ever be a dancer'. And maybe if they knew they had to justfiy their decision a bit more carefully they would be a bit more careful about making that decision....

 

Yes there is sometimes a situation where they have 20 places for 24 students, but even a gut instinct decision can be justified if you think it through. And maybe auditionees would like to know how close it was and that the differences were only minor, as this could have a very positive impact.

 

As for taking criticism as a reason to give up, well we all have to deal with criticism in life through any job we do, as well as in school from a very young age, and deal with not being as able in academic/arts or sporting areas as we might have liked. And we have to learn to use the constructive criticism to improve our work, and try not to take unconstructive criticism too much to heart. This is a life skill for everyone, not just dancers. I do understand and sympathise with what you are saying hfbrew, I just personally feel the risk is outweighed by the benefit...

[Legseleven]

I agree that since the public has been able to see their medical records, there has been more care taken in ensuring that these are accurate. However, the acronyms and euphemisms which have always been used by medics have simply become more inventive - and 'explainable'!

 

I can see both sides to the argument that there should be feedback available after final auditions, but that presupposes that every auditionee has the maturity to understand that this feedback is subjective/could have been entirely different on another day/may be as simple as 'nothing wrong with you or your audition, it just wasn't as good/outstanding as the candidate next to you', etc. (And I am certain that as with medical records, there will be bland ways to record things that actually tell candidates very little, possibly wisely - although presumably everyone who goes through to final auditions is considered to have 'something'.) 

[aileen]

Giving feedback to every candidate would be very time consuming and would be even more time consuming if it provoked 'appeals' or discussions (or requests for discussions) from disappointed candidates or their parents. The reality is that a lot of candidates will be rejected because of their body shape or type and this can be a sensitive issue to mention to children and teenagers. Although many employers give feedback this is generally only to the small number of applicants whom they interview rather than to everyone who applies and often the feedback is of the generic 'another applicant was a better fit for the position' type.

[2dancersmum]

Feedback would be difficult for a school in any case because often the administration team are quite separate to the audition panel.  If the audition panel has to write even just a few lines for each candidate, that would be quite time consuming and a lot more paperwork to pass to the admin team who are of course busy trying to get out all the offer letters aswell as the 'no letters' and then deal with all the paperwork needed for a student to join a school.   People already sometimes complain about the anxious wait for the results of an audition to come out.  Adding an extra element to it would add more time.  Financially also,  all the teachers are there to teach existing students not to give advice to a lot of potential students.  It would not be the best use of a schools finances and resources.  I don't really see that just giving feedback to those that reach the finals is beneficial either - to reach the finals you already know a school liked you and that you must of the required standard etc but there are always way more applicants than places  - what can be said of real benefit? We often read of students who make finals at one school but not another or of students who get waiting list initially before being offered a place.  Do they get offered feedback of why they are the waiting list and then a place comes available - why they are now good enough?

 

It might seem tough but you are paying for an open audition - not a personal assessment.  In the world of work incidentally, I have never received feedback - its either been a 'yes' or a 'thank you but we have gone with another person' generic letter.

[hfbrew]

I take your point about numbers- but this is not asking for a 20 page essay- a few lines perhaps. Or they could have a system where preliminary auditionees dont get feedback but surely they could manage feedback for those who make it to finals at very least?

 

Also not giving feedback because its too cruel? I'm not sure I agree that the answer is not to get any feedback at all. Years ago patients weren't allowed to see their medical notes and Dr's wrote all sorts of horrible subjective comments about their patients which adversely impacted on the way other clinicans treated them. Now they don't because they know the notes are publically visible. Perhaps audition panels could be trusted/expected to be capable of giving feedback in ways that don't include comments like 'you are simply too fat and ugly to ever be a dancer'. And maybe if they knew they had to justfiy their decision a bit more carefully they would be a bit more careful about making that decision....

 

Yes there is sometimes a situation where they have 20 places for 24 students, but even a gut instinct decision can be justified if you think it through. And maybe auditionees would like to know how close it was and that the differences were only minor, as this could have a very positive impact.

 

As for taking criticism as a reason to give up, well we all have to deal with criticism in life through any job we do, as well as in school from a very young age, and deal with not being as able in academic/arts or sporting areas as we might have liked. And we have to learn to use the constructive criticism to improve our work, and try not to take unconstructive criticism too much to heart. This is a life skill for everyone, not just dancers. I do understand and sympathise with what you are saying hfbrew, I just personally feel the risk is outweighed by the benefit...

The life skill about taking criticism is indeed crucial , something my ds and his fellow full time students learnt from a very early age. A dancer has to take it every day.

 

But my point in one of my earlier posts was that some got feedback that was stated at the time as "fact". "Facts" that supposedly would prevent classical careers. Can't go into too much detail at risk of identifying individuals.

 

At least one of these individuals nearly lost the chance to training elsewhere because the parents took the feedback so seriously they were unsurprisingly reluctant to fund more training. My own dh also expressed an opinion that ds should therefore discontinue, luckily this changed when the yesses started to arrive.

 

There have been many posts on this forums about "nos" at auditions and the resulting feeling of discouragement. How many times have we advised that no is not necessarily never!

 

In these cases, whilst feedback may be useful,it could simply compound the disappointment rather than just moving on. And where there are a large group of auditionees how pertinent to each individual would they be?

 

And as others have pointed out, this is the reality of what happens in professional auditions. You can travel miles only to be turned away at the door before even one pile!

[aileen]

I think that hfbrew's point is the most important one of all: what is stated as fact is actually opinion in many cases and most candidates and their parents will, understandably, not appreciate this. Why would they unless they were 'insiders' and understood 'the system'?