Harwel Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 1 hour ago, JellyfishXxx said: So what do they do if they completed the training but do not get a contract? How can they still dance classical ballet? In short, they don't! They take a sideways step if they have the ability - contemporary, musical theatre. Teach maybe, if they have the skills and temperament, but will require further training to become registered teachers. Other than that they retrain by going back to university, take up apprenticeships in another field or just simply get a job that pays the bills. I know ex dancers/professionally trained dancers that have the following careers: lawyer accountant, Pilates teacher, ballet teacher, personal trainer, school teacher, doctor - and just about everything else you can imagine. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArucariaBallerina Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 @JellyfishXxx oh bless you. Nothing is impossible- there's a minuscule chance. Perhaps you might be the oldest starting professional ballerina? Who knows! If you work really really hard, have money and time and an exceptional teacher(s)...and prodigious natural talent and passion. Bear in mind that the 'late starter' in ballet would be age 9-12 maybe... There have been cases such as Misty Copeland of course, but these are very rare. I myself started late (age 12) and you must strive and work your hardest every single day in every way... Ballet isn't a hobby, it's a lifestyle, for those who want it! Should say those who it wants! You absolutely must have a 'perfect ballet physique' though.... Slim, long legs in proportion to torso, long neck, elegant and graceful, strong flexible and high arched feet, good flexibility... And musicality. Have you done ballet/dance before? Or played sport competitively/seriously? This may help you slightly. Do you play any musical instruments/sing? This too will help. Get into classes and dance! And perhaps broaden your dreams to beyond the Royal Ballet... There are hundreds of companies in the world! At the moment, work as hard as you can, enjoy it and the rest will follow. best wishes! 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate_N Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 Quote Perhaps you might be the oldest starting professional ballerina? Who knows! If you work really really hard, have money and time and an exceptional teacher(s)...and prodigious natural talent and passion A lovely thought, but physiologically almost impossible - some of the muscles, etc need to be trained from early age - at the very latest 11 or 12. I saw that [awful] film Black Swan - it was VERY easy to see that the lead actress was not a trained professional dancer. She may have been thin, but she didn't have the honed, trained musclature, and her dancing wasn't up to it. It does not help Jellyfish to give her/him a false hope, in my view. However, contemporary dance is an area that late starters can work in & be paid for - if they have the physical facility, the kinaesthetic learning ability, enough musicality, and the energy. But Jellyfish has said that contemporary dance is not of interest -- that's a mistake, as contemporary dance is a field where very late starters (anyone over 18) might be able to scratch a living. Your questions actually come across as quite odd, Jellyfish. Have you read up about ballet careers? Have you been to dance performances? Have you seen or read any interviews with dancers? If you had done any of these things, you'd realise the answers to your questions. 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxi4ballet Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 People who join RBS in their mid-to-late 20's will have already been dancing professionally for some years at other highly-regarded ballet companies. Any over 30 are likely to be guest principal dancers who have been invited to perform specific roles in particular performances with the company. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrsMoo2 Posted June 10, 2017 Share Posted June 10, 2017 As an ex dancer, I can answer the what do you do after it all ends? Well the answer is, go back to college and retrain! ?? I'm a psychiatric nurse now, I fix the dancers who have been traumatised by years of audition let downs and nasty ballet mistresses! What does my son do in his spare time? Oh yeah he's a ballet dancer!!! The irony! ???? 19 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yaffa Posted June 10, 2017 Share Posted June 10, 2017 14 hours ago, Kate_N said: A lovely thought, but physiologically almost impossible - some of the muscles, etc need to be trained from early age - at the very latest 11 or 12. I saw that [awful] film Black Swan - it was VERY easy to see that the lead actress was not a trained professional dancer. She may have been thin, but she didn't have the honed, trained musclature, and her dancing wasn't up to it. Actually I believe that most of the of the ballet in Black Swan was performed by a professional dancer (Sarah Lane of ABT), with a picture of Natalie Portman's face pasted into the videos - leading to a controversy about how the two ladies' contributions should be represented. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Swan_dance_double_controversy. Sarah Lane said she greatly admires Natalie Portman as an actress, but she feels it is important for people to understand that professional ballet takes many many years of training since childhood and is not something that can be learned for a movie. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invisiblecircus Posted June 10, 2017 Share Posted June 10, 2017 You've received some good replies here, Jellyfish. I am curious as to your background. What attracted you to ballet? You say you're 23 now. Have you trained for a different profession? Some posters have mentioned Matthew Bourne who started training at 22, but I think 22 was the age he started at Laban, I don't think he went there with absolutely no previous experience did he? I would also like to add that it is a little easier for men to get into dance later than it is for women, it is infinitely easier to get into contemporary dance at a later age than ballet, and was probably easier to start later at the time Bourne started his training than it is now. He has mentioned in interviews that at the time, Laban was considered one of the easiest schools to get in to. Now it's one of the most selective. Jellyfish, at the age of 23 there are still a number of ways you can earn a living from classical ballet. Perhaps you have the potential to be a teacher, or maybe a stage manager, lighting designer/ technician, stage designer, costume designer/ maker, administrator or many other roles essential to the running of a ballet or dance company. Alternatively, maybe a career as a performer in a different field would appeal. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viv Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 I think all the replies here have summed it up very well. Starting 'late' in ballet is age 13... But, if you're determined to try it, give yourself a year of classes with no expectations. The likelihood of joining the Royal Ballet post age 24 is just as poor as 23, you need to have that year of training anyway so why not? I'm assuming you're not yet a year into your training but if I'm wrong you can probably disregard this... But if I'm right, for this year just go to class for the joy of ballet (you have to have the joy or you wouldn't want a career in it). In a years time, look back on what you've learned and what you've accomplished, and then realistically look at how far you have to go. It can take a few months for the sparkle of just starting ballet to wear off, and for you to realise that you're stuck in 'beginner' level classes for the next 3-5 years...that those pointe shoes you covet are a lot further away than you thought. But also that there is so much more to learn than you ever thought! Why would I be thinking of a career in ballet when I can barely nail a single pirouette? Why would I be desperate to put on pointe shoes when I can barely balance on demi? I started ballet 4 years ago at age 20, and I was woefully unrealistic in how I perceived my talent and the world I'd just entered. When I was able to be realistic, and make manageable goals (and even start achieving some of them!) I got so much more out of my ballet classes than I ever had before. I didn't dream of being a professional ballet dancer, so I'm not in your shoes, but I did have a skewed view that needed to be set straight. In one year, look back on where you've come from and think about whether you even want a career in classical ballet. If you've just started, how do you even know that's what you want? You've barely begun to experience life as a ballet dancer. It is beautiful, challenging, maddening, and sometimes demoralising to dance, even as a beginner. I dancer 5 days a week and can't for the life of me imagine why anyone would want to be a professional ballet dancer... In one year, you'll be a year further along in your training which you need anyway, but also a year further along in this mental journey. If you decide you still want to go for a career at the Royal Ballet and think you can actually achieve it, you can come back here. Unfortunately, the answer won't change. You've more than likely missed your opportunity. Do ballet cos you love it, not because you'll make a buck off it. For making money, that's why i study law 20 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2dancersmum Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 welcome to the forum Jellyfish. To become a professional ballet dancer, you basically need to audition and show the audition panel that you are a better choice than any other dancer in the audition for their company/role etc. Bear in mind that I said 'choice' and not necessarily 'best dancer' as there will always be an element of subjectivity when you are seeking the best fit for a role or company. There are 2 types of audition - open and closed. For an 'open' audition, you read the audition requirements and basically just turn up,along with hundreds of others who match the audition requirements. Typical requirements are often specified height, sometimes age range, sometimes x years of previous professional experience, sometimes things like EU passport or visa requirements. If you google 'ballet auditions' you will find adverts from Dance Europe and audition sites which will show you what I mean. Totally open auditions are relatively few and far between. Far more common are 'closed or private auditions'. For a closed audition, you usually again have to meet the audition requirements, but you also need to send a dance cv and/or video footage of yourself dancing and the ballet company will then select a number of people they wish to actually audition. Here you can see where aged 30, on paper looking for your first professional contract you would be at an extreme disadvantage to a 30 year old with several professional contracts already completed and where where you trained can come into it. Alternatively for a closed audition, directors of ballet companies may watch graduate classes at top ballet schools, or watch dancers at top competitions, or have dancers recommended to them by people they know and may invite dancers who have caught their eye to audition. A top ballet company will have literally hundreds of dancers to choose from for just one vacancy. This is putting it all very simply but you can see it is not just about age but also about competition and contacts. As a dancer you are striving to be the best you can but so is every dancer out there. Competition for places at vocational schools is huge and for contracts even greater. Its never just about you and your potential/what you can achieve but where you can fit in and how you compare to the other dancers out there. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angel Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 On 6/10/2017 at 11:23, MrsMoo2 said: As an ex dancer, I can answer the what do you do after it all ends? Well the answer is, go back to college and retrain! ?? I'm a psychiatric nurse now, I fix the dancers who have been traumatised by years of audition let downs and nasty ballet mistresses! What does my son do in his spare time? Oh yeah he's a ballet dancer!!! The irony! ???? Oh MrsMoo2 I need your number 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JellyfishXxx Posted June 14, 2017 Author Share Posted June 14, 2017 On 2017-6-9 at 22:56, ArucariaBallerina said: @JellyfishXxx oh bless you. Nothing is impossible- there's a minuscule chance. Perhaps you might be the oldest starting professional ballerina? Who knows! If you work really really hard, have money and time and an exceptional teacher(s)...and prodigious natural talent and passion. Bear in mind that the 'late starter' in ballet would be age 9-12 maybe... There have been cases such as Misty Copeland of course, but these are very rare. I myself started late (age 12) and you must strive and work your hardest every single day in every way... Ballet isn't a hobby, it's a lifestyle, for those who want it! Should say those who it wants! You absolutely must have a 'perfect ballet physique' though.... Slim, long legs in proportion to torso, long neck, elegant and graceful, strong flexible and high arched feet, good flexibility... And musicality. Have you done ballet/dance before? Or played sport competitively/seriously? This may help you slightly. Do you play any musical instruments/sing? This too will help. Get into classes and dance! And perhaps broaden your dreams to beyond the Royal Ballet... There are hundreds of companies in the world! At the moment, work as hard as you can, enjoy it and the rest will follow. best wishes! Where can I find such an exceptional teacher? I am thinking of going to Brighton Ballet School, is that good enough? I have heard however that they don't employ dancers who have only finished their training at 30 though in companies, because there are lots of younger ones with previous company experience. Do you dance ballet? Is there really no chance do you think, if you are good? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisa O`Brien Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 Hello Jellyfish. My advice would be to phone a local, qualified ballet school teacher and ask her/him if they would kindly "take a look at you" and assess your potential. Then when you get there explain your situation and what your aspirations are. I'm sorry, but without even seeing you dance, or your physique, which might be lovely, I think I know what that teacher is going to say to you. You might not believe them, because you might not want to hear it. My advice would be to then do the same with another school and ask a different teacher if she would mind assessing your potential to become a professional ballet dancer one day. Eventually you WILL see a pattern emerging. Please don't take my word for it or anyone else's on here if you don't want to, and you are perfectly entitled to that . You clearly are very passionate about ballet and love it very much. I just think you are in denial and need to hear it for yourself that you should have started training as a child. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anon2 Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 Have you looked at the biographies of the dancers from the big companies? Have you read any articles in Dancing Times or Dance Europe about a dancers journey, hardships, family support, knock backs, injuries? It is a difficult and almost impossible journey for any of the talented dancing children to get to the employable stage after years of living dance with endless support from their families. You sound from your posts as though you have not had any classes. Join an adult ballet class and have fun, enjoy it for what it is. Go to the ballet and see if you can get to watch any company classes. Both of these will make you realise how unrealistic your expectations are. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Picturesinthefirelight Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 3 hours ago, JellyfishXxx said: Where can I find such an exceptional teacher? I am thinking of going to Brighton Ballet School, is that good enough? I have heard however that they don't employ dancers who have only finished their training at 30 though in companies, because there are lots of younger ones with previous company experience. Do you dance ballet? Is there really no chance do you think, if you are good? A dancer never ever finishes their training. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JellyfishXxx Posted June 14, 2017 Author Share Posted June 14, 2017 5 minutes ago, Picturesinthefirelight said: A dancer never ever finishes their training. Before they can join the company, that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hfbrew Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 Training doesn't stop once you are in a company! 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harwel Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 (edited) You have been given some very thoughtful advice on this forum from ex professional dancers, parents who have seen their children through the trials and tribulations of classes, auditions, going off to full time dance school and then company auditions and others who have been connected with ballet at the highest level all their lives. Unfortunately you are struggling to hear the advice. May I suggest you ring some of our top ballet schools and ask them their view on your situation, perhaps ring: The Royal Ballet school English National Ballet school Central School of ballet Elmhurst ballet school you would need to be able to get into one of these schools (plus some others, but the list is quite long) or an equivalent foreign school to complete your initial training to be able to have the necessary skills to audition for a ballet company. Some schools categorically refuse to audition girls over the age of 18. And I gather at 23 you haven't even started training yet. How do you know if you have the physical requirements? Edited June 14, 2017 by Harwel Extra to add 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aileen Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 Becoming a professional ballet dancer is in no way equivalent to, say, going into the law or training to be a doctor in your 20s, 30s or 40s. It's better to think in terms of becoming an elite gymnast. If you've watched the Olympics you'll know that elite gymnasts are usually teenagers or perhaps in their early twenties. If you read their biographies you'll see that they have trained intensively from childhood. With respect, you are rather arrogant in thinking that you can take up ballet as a complete beginner at 23 and seriously aspire to a career with one of the top ballet companies in the world, or any professional ballet company for that matter. Unless you have neglected to give us some vital pieces of information I don't think that you have taken on board how unrealistic your dream is. Yes, there is the odd professional dancer who started 'late', but 'late' in a ballet context means starting to train intensively in one's teens, and it's much rarer for female dancers to start late than male. It's not just a question of learning steps. The whole body has to be trained and that takes years of intensive training; the process can't be accelerated. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anon2 Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 Jellyfish why do you think you want to be a ballet dancer? Lots of young children start classes, some catch the bug and want to become ballet dancers. Of those with enough passion, drive and correct facility a minority will be lucky enough to get a place at a vocational school. Of those that complete the vocational school journey a few will get jobs at top companies, some will luckily get jobs with smaller companies or work freelance. And some won't ever dance professionally. As harsh as it may sound you are being totally unrealistic thinking you can start dancing now and make a living from it. You won't be a ballet dancer professionally - EVER. Professionals in any field be it dance, medicine, teaching would never ever assume their training was over. Every day we learn something new. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxi4ballet Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 (edited) 6 hours ago, JellyfishXxx said: Where can I find such an exceptional teacher? Is there really no chance do you think, if you are good? Exceptional teachers are very thin on the ground. Most of them are either teaching in full-time vocational schools, or are ballet masters/mistresses in ballet companies. There are a few freelancers. However - you will find that none of them are likely to be teaching adult dancers at an early stage in their training. It isn't just a question of being a good dancer. Or even exceptional. In order to get into the Royal Ballet you have to be more than that - you need to be world class. Edited June 14, 2017 by taxi4ballet 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pointetoes Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 Jellyfish everyone has given you very good advice. Granted it may not be what you want to hear but sometimes the truth hurts. It's a very cut throat world, not only for those learning the skills but those already lucky enough to be in a company as well as parents and family who have to watch them go through it all. Is it the world of classical ballet you want to be in ? Very different to being a classical dancer. There are a lot of questions that have been asked and you haven't answered them. Please answer them, people are trying to help you. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisa O`Brien Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 (edited) I was cooking the dinner tonight and I suddenly thought of you Jellyfish. Do you know why? Because I looked down at my feet and they were naturally turned out to the sides. I walk like a duck. All the time. I'm sitting here now and my feet are naturally turned out in second position. They have done, and I have walked like a duck all my adult life. This is because I started ballet lessons at the age of nine and they lasted for about eight years altogether. The ONE thing which sets ballet apart from any other type of dance is the requirement for turn out. It's not just the feet that point out to the sides in first, second, third, fourth and fifth positions, etc. But the entire leg from the hip joint. Ballet is incredibly unnatural in this aspect. It isn't about being able to do four or five pirouettes in a row, or lifting your leg up to your ears. In time many people might be able to do this with enough practice whatever their age if they are determined enough I guess. It won't allow them to become a ballet dancer though. What sets ballet trained dancers apart is their turn out. Because it is such an unnatural thing it has to be taken really slowly and gradually. We are, after all, dealing with people's hip bones in their hip sockets here. So the young child, whose bones are still soft, still pliable, takes ballet lessons and is deliberately trained nice and slowly. Even at the Royal Ballet School as far as I understand, when the newcomers first arrive at age 11, they are initially only allowed one ballet class a week. Then as the weeks progress a young student will slowly learn Plies, Ronds De Jambe, other exercises to very very gently force their hips from being in a "normal" position, i'e. the way the rest of the population stands with parallel feet and hips, to slowly and gradually over many years being turned out a little bit more and more. Eventually after many years your feet , knees and hips FROM THE HIP SOCKET turn out to the side. I haven't taken a ballet class since I was 17 years old. Not one. I am now nearly 50. But if I were to do Plies and any other ballet step, comparable to the rest of the non dancing population, my entire legs from the hip socket are still turned out. Not 180 degrees of course, far from it. But enough, let me tell you. At your age all your bones have ossified and are set the way they will be forever more as an adult. No amount of ballet lessons from now until the rest of your days are going to change the way your hips are positioned. If you have never done ballet before you will have absolutely no turnout whatsoever. Turn out, more than anything else , is THE one thing that is absolutely essential for ballet. How on earth are you going to achieve flat, 180 degree turn out at the age you are now? There are children whose parents are on this forum who have been taking lots of ballet lessons every week, often for several hours a week who will never have the required level of turn out for a career as a ballet dancer. And that's WHILE their bones are still soft and WHILE they are constantly working on their turn out in lessons guided by their teachers. Many, many will never get there. Edited June 14, 2017 by Lisa O`Brien 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArucariaBallerina Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 @JellyfishXxx I'm still young - I'm only 14 - but one day I really really really hope, wish, work for, dream to be a ballet dancer. I would love to dance Giselle for the Royal Ballet, but accept that, if I do 'make it' *crosses fingers and toes* that it might well be in some unknown touring company in Scandinavia dancing as a Wili for the rest of my career. I would equally still love it though. I love dancing, I want classical ballet to be my life. I started so very late, at 12, and cannot turn out so naturally as i could have if I had started years before. It is coming though, as teachers at school comment I stand like a ballet dancer! And I automatically stand straight. But it took 2 years of constant exercises and conditioning, stretching, intense lessons and practice practice practice! And it was and is such hard work, physically and emotionally. Nothing is impossible. Very very very almost impossible, but not absolute. But we're talking, if you really want classical ballet, something like two or three hour and a half-two hour ballet classes a day every day, body conditioning like Pilates and lots of stretching, holiday courses... Etc! Presuming you have a natural ballet body and a huge amount of natural flexibility, particularly in the hip joint and feet. And then, if it did happen, you would probably be in a minor or amateur company. Never give up, work as hard as possible... Read some ballet history, it's very interesting and insightful. Take inspiration from other arts- music, nature, painting... And start ballet classes now! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glissade Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 Why do I have a picture in my mind of a troll laughing at the very kind, sincere people who are feeding it? 15 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peanut68 Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 Have only read the last few posts here bit just to lighten the tone....my rugby Hubbie has never danced a step of ballet in his life yet has amazingly flat turnout & walks like a duck....I am always joking how he'd look great in a pair of white tights!!! :-O 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisa O`Brien Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 29 minutes ago, glissade said: Why do I have a picture in my mind of a troll laughing at the very kind, sincere people who are feeding it? I was actually thinking the same, glissade, tbh. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petalviolet Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 49 minutes ago, glissade said: Why do I have a picture in my mind of a troll laughing at the very kind, sincere people who are feeding it? Prunes. Try one. Allow a prune down your gullet and it is as likely to speed your ascension from adult novice to Royal Ballet professional as anything else one could try. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glissade Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 3 minutes ago, Petalviolet said: Prunes. Try one. Allow a prune down your gullet and it is as likely to speed your ascension from adult novice to Royal Ballet professional as anything else one could try. Lol - I have no nasturtiums, dalmations or otherwise aspirations to graduate from my sofa, let alone wear a bum-hugging leotard! And the fewer prunes admitted into that mental image, the better! 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JellyfishXxx Posted June 15, 2017 Author Share Posted June 15, 2017 16 hours ago, ArucariaBallerina said: @JellyfishXxx I'm still young - I'm only 14 - but one day I really really really hope, wish, work for, dream to be a ballet dancer. I would love to dance Giselle for the Royal Ballet, but accept that, if I do 'make it' *crosses fingers and toes* that it might well be in some unknown touring company in Scandinavia dancing as a Wili for the rest of my career. I would equally still love it though. I love dancing, I want classical ballet to be my life. I started so very late, at 12, and cannot turn out so naturally as i could have if I had started years before. It is coming though, as teachers at school comment I stand like a ballet dancer! And I automatically stand straight. But it took 2 years of constant exercises and conditioning, stretching, intense lessons and practice practice practice! And it was and is such hard work, physically and emotionally. Nothing is impossible. Very very very almost impossible, but not absolute. But we're talking, if you really want classical ballet, something like two or three hour and a half-two hour ballet classes a day every day, body conditioning like Pilates and lots of stretching, holiday courses... Etc! Presuming you have a natural ballet body and a huge amount of natural flexibility, particularly in the hip joint and feet. And then, if it did happen, you would probably be in a minor or amateur company. Never give up, work as hard as possible... Read some ballet history, it's very interesting and insightful. Take inspiration from other arts- music, nature, painting... And start ballet classes now! I wish you the best! Since you are a ballet dancer, can you say how you stay prepared for ballet during the summer, too? Most schools have summer break and I wonder what one can do then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glissade Posted June 15, 2017 Share Posted June 15, 2017 You could try reading ballet forums .... lots of info in those. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pointetoes Posted June 15, 2017 Share Posted June 15, 2017 27 minutes ago, glissade said: You could try reading ballet forums .... lots of info in those. ? Especially on Summer Schools Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulieW Posted June 15, 2017 Share Posted June 15, 2017 Here's a good topic to read to get you going... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peanut68 Posted June 15, 2017 Share Posted June 15, 2017 PV! You are back!! :-) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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