Jazzpaws Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 I would like to see vocational lower schools publish the destination of their graduates in the same way that upper schools do. I would also like to see the numbers of non vocational students that gain places at upper schools (as opposed to vocational students and those from abroad), whether they have attended associate classes, CAT schemes or have had help from MDS. It would be useful to see how government funding has helped talented students. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzpaws Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 When DD was on her CAT scheme, there were some students that left in the last year or two because they decided a dance career wasn't for them and although they enjoyed the classes, it was fairer to leave those places for others that wished to pursue that dream -. Admittedly they were not tied into GCSE's on the scheme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anon2 Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Invisiblecircus is right a large number moved from WL to US last year. Didn't we have a thread about how well they had done at the time? The numbers change year by year as they do at every school. This period of time is very hard on both the dc and their parents. They will be feeling very raw at the moment. It is hard for the dc at vocational schools getting their results as they are told in person, without their parents being around, they will know before they go into the office who has a place and who doesn't, unless they are first. They will have heard the tears and upset of others and know they have to keep it together enough to call home and pass news onto parents. Those with places will be alert to how those without places at US are feeling and it will taint their initial excitement. However all will pick them selves up and get on with their GCSE and further auditiions and then look forward to their final show and graduation ceremony. Best wishes to any parents and their dc trying for places at upper schools this year. In our house we can't believe it is a year since we went through this stress. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mae989 Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Does anyone know how many make it through from Y7 all the way up to US? It must be very heartbreaking and so disruptive with GCSEs on the horizon. My heart goes out to all of them. How many places are there at US? In some respects I do understand that there must be so many talented DCs applying for US that just didn't want to apply for LS. They could have equally worked hard and developed from a different type of training. Surely these deserve a chance too? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Autumn days Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 (edited) I really really feel for those who wanted a place but didn't get one (been there, done that) but.....this thread is actually a little annoying and the story has been repeated many times. Places at upper school and any other school will go to the students they think are best suited at the time. In the case of RBS upper school then the competition is from all over the world - and that is a big place. If the best 15 or so students in the world are from the UK and even trained at WL then that is great but what are the chances of that? I actually don't believe that they should favor their own students however harsh that is. It is also too soon to say it is a trend. Last year was a golden year and lts of WL students got in - but that Obviously wasn't a trend any more than this may be. It all depends on who is out there!! Edited March 17, 2015 by mum in a spin 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neil Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Does anyone know how many make it through from Y7 all the way up to US? I asked at the WL fair last summer, they said on average about 25% go all the way through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harwel Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 I agree with you mum in a spin, this thread is jolly annoying! I am surprised anyone is surprised! I feel very sorry for those children personally involved in this stage of their training but they will get through it, as we all get through tough times. No one has a 'right' for the place, the training, the funding. You audition, take your chances and move forward with whatever situation you find yourself in. I am also annoyed by the other thread about ranking schools - this thread clearly shows there is no golden ticket, no one school fits all. Any school is brilliant if it suits you. This is true of any school, university and job. Why should ballet be any different? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stirrups36 Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Maybe on another forum somewhere there are lots of parents discussing why so few UK 11 year olds end up playing for Manchester United. As muminaspin says, this school is one of the very best in the world, and rightly has applicants from all over the world. To those who have trained there and are staying for US, to those who haven't and are about to - congratulations. But it wont get any easier from here... To those who have trained there and are about to leave, congratulations on the last 5 years, and I am sure you will have a very successful and enjoyable time in whatever route you take from here - which of course could include training at other upper schools and a professional classical ballet career! None of what has been learned is wasted and how many others have taken part in those amazing defile on the ROH stage? no-one can take that away from you. 13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna C Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Very well said, Stirrups36. :-) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Picturesinthefirelight Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Out of a whole class of 6 year olds in my nephews group at Man U Academy only 2 were selected to continue. Football is just as harsh. I'm not going to comment further but I do feel & so do others that this year's year group have had an especially hard time. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neil Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 On the face of it for 75% of pupils to be told they are doing fine for 5 years and then, just before GCSEs, be told they are no longer of the required standard would be shocking, but my understanding is that this is not really how the school currently works. From what I gather, until now the upper and lower schools have been essentially different schools, albeit under the RBS banner. If so then it probably shouldn't be such a surprise that sometimes only a few pupils will move from one to the other although this will be of little comfort to those who are disappointed. I think it is telling that in the latest RBS annual report, the chairman's review says "... we were gearing up to come significant restructuring." ... "we are moving towards integrating the work of White Lodge and the Upper School... and the timely need to reconsider old practices" Too late for the current generation, perhaps, but maybe those coming up will be more fortunate. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lifeafterballet Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 "Don't cry because it ended, smile because it happened" Terry Pratchett (think that was it !) the very best of luck to all the year 11's auditioning for schools, whether it's their own or another, there will be heartbreak and happiness ! 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hfbrew Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 My ds year had an unusually low number go to US compared to the years either side. However ALL of them chose to continue vocational training elsewhere and a high proportion of them are now professional. Although we would probably have accepted US if offered I dont think the training would have suited my ds. In fact there was a slight feeling of relief when he didnt get faced with that choice and some of the other offers at places that he had already said he preferred. It is made clear at the outset that being at WL does not guarantee natural progression to US. A lot can happen even in the two years that they are "safe" ( the gcse years). Ive seen it myself as a teacher, promising students losing interest or drive, injuries, or simply plateauing. And then Ive seen others suddenly blossom... Ds year all decided to continue vocational training but I know many in other years who chose to follow other paths as was their right. Each year is different so I too find this thread a little difficult and also worrying because if someone responsible for funding reads this without looking at the bigger picture it could ultimately impact on future years chances. My heart goes out to current WL year 11s and indeed the whole lower school as I know that they have seen many changes recently which wont have helped. Good luck to you all and congratulations on graduating from WL which is an achievement in itself. For many people there are far better places to train than RBS upper school. 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2dancersmum Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Is this a 'not suitable for further classical training' or 'there are other students from elsewhere in the country or world who are better'? At the end of the day places at 16+ training should be awarded to those who are deemed most worthy at audition and not a given right or favoured to students coming up from a lower school. I don't think any of the upper schools automatically give places to lower school students they all have to audition. Statistics of 75% may seem 'shocking' but remember you are only talking about a small number of people and there will always be some who want a change of direction - be it a more academic route or simply not purely classical ballet or not dancing at all. It is possible that some will want a change of scene - to not be in a closed environment but to spread their wings and experiences a little more and there will be those whose bodies have changed. I actually think that with no assessing out in year 10, a lot of girls and boys will have changed considerably between the end of year 9 and the end of year 11. My son went from a skinny 5'4'' to a muscular over 6' during this time - most of it in year 10. Boys do most of their growing from age 14 and although girls tend to have their growth spurt earlier than boys it is often the small and slim girls that develop later. Both my DDs will have changed considerably during this time too. Finally throw in competition from other students and is it really surprising? I feel for those going through it at the moment but not getting a place at upper school is not the end of the line for a dancing career and might in the long run be better for some of them. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kat09 Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Last year it was my daughters dream to gain a place at RBS Upper School she got a place everywhere but Floral Street. 11 were successful from Lower school and they are all beautiful dancers. A number who didn't gain a place now dance at the same school as my daughter - they are beautiful dancers too and are thriving. As many on here have said not every school (and their system of training) will be right for every child - it's a bitter pill at the time but it might be the medicine that is needed. Best wishes to all that are affected by these results and all good wishes for the future x 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pas de Quatre Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 There are indeed many variables from year to year, and some dancers may be more suited elswhere. But such low numbers going on to US do make me feel uneasy. WL is supposed to be one of the world's foremost schools who have carefully selected dancers to train. It makes you wonder whether they are using the right criteria for selection in the first place, or whether there are any problems with the training. Also if there are many pupils who no longer want to dance, and there are injury problems it adds to the feeling of disquiet. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2dancersmum Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Yes they have carefully selected dancers to train and those dancers will no doubt go onto successful careers by continuing their training elsewhere. Its simply that at 16 when the places are open to competition from a bigger pool of dancers there may be others who fit their very narrow criteria for selection better. I don't think it means there is any problem with the training and I don't think pupils no longer wanting to dance or to change track or injury problems are a cause for concern either. A lot can change from year 9 to year 11 and even more can change from year 7 to year 11 and with each year group being so small, it sort of magnifies the percentages. I don't mean to dismiss injuries lightly - they can happen to anyone - but as the training intensifies problems/weaknesses within the body can become an issue. Numbers vary from year to year - it doesn't seem to be a concern in year when a lot go onto train at upper school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZooZoo Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 I am rather shocked at the way the OP has put their position/view on this. There are many reasons why the children in year 11 may not be continuing, body shape, height, desire to go down a different path. We simply don't know. I suspect that body shape may be a lot to do with it. If you take 100 ten year old girls, as many as 10 may look to be suitable for training. By the time they are 16, I'd say you might be down to 2 out of the 100. That's not WL's fault is it? OP - to say you are "disgusted" is a bit strong. Anyone who has a child at WL or about to go there will, in my view, feel somewhat hurt by your view. Of course we all know that only a small percentage of children joining in year 7 will get through to US and an even smaller to the Company itself. They are competing against the world at the high levels. Our job as parents is to help them enjoy the journey, the ups and downs, the changes in direction. I am sure that children at all the vocational schools, providing that they are happy there (there will be some it does not suit) are learning amazing life skills as well as enjoying their dancing. To have any of these schools on your cv is a huge achievement and I wish them all well. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Picturesinthefirelight Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 (edited) To be fair the OP (I think) does have a child at White Lodge & I suspect their post was done in the midst of a lot of anguish & strong feelings amongst their friends. There are some beautiful dancers in year 11 - I sincerely hope they get to fulfil their dreams. Whilst posting here I think we ALL should be aware that these are real children & real parents lives - & they may be reading this. Edited March 17, 2015 by Picturesinthefirelight 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capybara Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Christopher Powney has said in various interviews that he is seeking to increase the number of WL students proceeding to the US. Perhaps things are in transition at the moment. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulip Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 I also believe that everyone is allowed to voice their oppinion, concerns etc so long as they are not being hurtful or offensive. The figures do appear harsh for whatever reason, therefore people are going to question decisions. The ballet world is a very harsh world and most of us know this and I'm sure it does get even harder. I can imagine that sometimes it is hard to get of the roller coaster even when the student wants to. It's a very difficult time of year right now and emotions are running very high. This forum has always been a great support to all its members. However people shouldn't be put off voicing their opinions, concerns and questions. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CeliB Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 I think I have said on another thread somewhere that someone who once taught DS went to ballet school in Russia (not one of the big 2 but a prestigious school nonetheless) and she said of the 25 or so who started with her age 11 only 5 graduated at the end. And she was one of them and is now teaching not performing. So I wonder if this kind of percentage fall off from 11 to 18 is not so unusual, because it really is just too difficult to predict at age 11 how someone will be at age 16/17/18- not only in terms of their physical attributes but also their desire to continue in this exacting profession. Perhaps if there was more transparency from *all* schools about student's origins and progression, White Lodge wouldn't look such an outlier.... In terms of Lausanne DH reported that the Director didn't interview very many people at all (he only saw him interview one girl and then leave quite early). I'm not sure how many of the prizewinners may have wanted to go to RBS but I don't think they are obliged to take more than 1. So I doubt Lausanne is a huge factor. And YAGP finals in New York aren't until April - I'd be surprised if AD's from the UK go to regionals... In terms of U/S the explanations are very different depending on who it is that is getting these places If most of the places are going to other UK trained students then this doesn't mean WL is *poor* training, it just means that other training in the UK is just as good, and that students that don't apply to or get into WL are often as talented as those that do. Some people might be very happy to know this! If places are going to overseas students this would be unsurprising if the process for selection is completely merit based, because RBS has such a good international reputation. It would only take the one most talented student from every country to apply and there would be thousands of students as good as the top one student at WL. Again this doesnt imply WL training isn't comparable with all those other schools overseas, only that London is a very attractive proposition for overseas students. Of course one might take a view that U/S should have a quota for UK students given that it is funded by the UK taxpayer, but this is a matter divorced from any discussion about the training quality. I do feel sorry though for those who might have wanted to stay and now have to reassess. It is quite brutal when children are still at a very vulnerable age. I feel incredibly lucky we have never had to go through this, so my sympathies to anyone in this position. 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angel Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Thank you Pictures Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aileen Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 As someone said above, the two years between 13/14 and 15/16 are momentous in terms of physical and emotional development, outlook and interests. You see it all the time at 'normal' schools. Children lose interest in things that they were previously passionate about, lose motivation, want to experiment or try other things etc. In a hugely competitive environment such as the RBS if you lose motivation for a time or plateau others may overtake you and you may find it impossible to catch up. Late developers may have a growth spurt and lose strength and technique shortly before they start auditions for the US and their lack of maturity may affect their motivation causing them to make less progress than was expected. Puberty can be particularly cruel for girls. I have seen many gazelle like 11 year olds who, by 14 or 15, have (beautiful) bodies which no longer meet the narrow classical ballet aesthetic. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulip Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 My Dd said the same as you aileen, things change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dance*is*life Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 (edited) When I was at the US some 50 years ago, foreign students were not eligible for the company, so were put in separate classes and the level was much lower than the rest of the school. Each year the graduates from WL went straight away into a special class on their own and then Graduates - ie they were considered so good that they automatically went into De Valois' classes. The rest of us needed a preparatory year to whip us into shape and then two more years. A lot has changed since then, but I can't believe that the standard of training has lowered, just that the market has widened and there's far greater competition. Edited March 17, 2015 by Dance*is*life 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarahw Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 (edited) I suppose it doesn't always seem a level playing field if US is open to all comers but, for example as mentioned in another thread, POB rarely take anyone after 13. Also it will be language related as there will be plenty of students willing to come to an English speaking school than vice versa. And I guess the UK may be more attractive than the USA in terms of possible employment after due to how hard it is to get a green card? Edited March 17, 2015 by sarahw 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pas de Quatre Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 These days it is getting just as difficult for non EU nationals to get work permits for UK as it is for Europeans (and others) to get permits to work in USA. It cuts both ways. Another thing I have always wondered is how the waiting list for RBS is managed alongside the fact that places are sometimes offered to dancers at the Summer School for both US & WL. Does this mean they keep a few places back just in case? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yetanotherdancemum Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 I have a lot of sympathy for the OP and others with children at WL who have survived several years of rigorous assessment procedures and yet have been unsuccessful at securing a place at US. In my view it is not at all unreasonable to expect a better acceptance rate from a school that supposedly takes on those children with the most aptitude for a career in classical ballet. Yes children's bodies will develop differently and some children's aspirations may change but fundamentally if this was a business questions would be asked by its shareholders regarding the final output/results from the school. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulip Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 The ones who still want to continue must be good as they get snapped up by ENB, Central and Elmhurst and ofcourse the other schools. A lot of them as has been said have gone on to become a part of top ballet companies. For these students who clearly did have potential, why weren't the offered a place at US. I know some were better suited to other schools which has been explained, but that would be the students decision. I suppose the truth is The Royal want the very best candidate that they can get and you have done amazingly well to secure a place in the US. However when the government were investing in our dancers and would have continued to do so, why didn't The Royal believe I these successful dancers? Mine is just a question and I'm not out to cause any arguments. I'm just glad that these students were able to secure a place at another school where they were able to continue in achieving their dreams. Saying that at Royal it would have been a MDS at other schools it is either a DaDa or government student loan. My heart truly does go out to these parents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2dancersmum Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 (edited) I too have a lot of sympathy for the year 11s as this must be an awful time for them, especially when the news is so new and the emotions are raw but while entry to upper school remains open to all through audition, competition is going to be tough. All students who get a place at US| are to be congratulated and lets not take the shine off for those being offered a place who have not come from WL but are on the forum and reading this thread. And again, those at WL have I am sure been offered places in other schools - they are still on track to becoming professional dancers - but they are taking a different path to the one they perhaps envisaged. This is disappointment not failure. Edited March 17, 2015 by 2dancersmum 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Picturesinthefirelight Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Some/most have not yet been offered places in other schools but I am hoping they will be soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulip Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Fingers crossed for them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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