Dance and Drama Awards

[Kat09]

Thanks for the info Millie

[kiwimum6]

I am very concerned about how changes to funding will impact on schools operating mds and dada. Clearly schools like Tring, Elmhurst and Hammond have, until this year, had a large proportion of their income paid by the government through the old scheme. Under the new one, with fewer families able to take up their places, could this put the viability of these vocational schools in jeapordy?

[Aurora]

Well the claims are that the funding hasn't been reduced, it's just been redistributed so that those most in need get enough, but everyone seems to be suffering so I don't know how that works!!

[balletla]

I don't think the schools' income will reduce. There are is still the same amount of DaDA funding from the Government, it is just allocated differently. The issue is that the  total funding remains flat i.e. no annual increase for inflation, so with rising costs for food/energy etc, it becomes harder to make that money stretch. The consequences of this are being felt already at the RBS where they are cutting staff and restructuring the school. The other schools have previously had more flexibility as they could offer quite a few non-funded places to make up some of the shortfall; something that RBS is not able to do as all their policy is that all places are funded.

 

However, the changes in DaDA will mean that a lot of families are now expected to pay full price and will now start looking very carefully at what they get for their money. No matter what you earn, spending £75-90k on dance training is a tough call - you could send your child to a top private school for that money and that has played into our thinking as my DD is very academic as well as being talented at ballet. Or you could go abroad for a fraction of the cost (I think from memory, the Bolshoi is 'only' £15k a year isn't it Primrose?) Schools will have to look at reducing costs and finding different/cheaper business models for delivering training, that maybe isn't all centred around a very costly boarding model? Maybe some of the schools will merge to reduce their overall cost - you would only need one AD, one school principal etc but have double the students (income).

 

I will also be far more demanding about what i am getting from the school. Traditionally there has sometimes been an attitude of trying to keep the parents at arms length when it comes to some of the ballet training in these schools and there has been a reluctance to involve parents and a fear from parents of somehow jeopardising their child's place if they create too much fuss. The balance of power has been with the school. Well frankly if I am paying that kind of money, that will change and I will make sure I am very clear what they are delivering for my child!!

 

In short, what the Government changes will do is start forcing more of a 'competitive market' between the schools which will lead to efficiencies. Any reduction in the full cost of a place will be passed on the Government as the school will not be allowed to charge different prices for funded and non-funded places. This is what is happening in all areas - state schools, NHS etc.

[BalletBloch]

Are DaDa's no longer offered to students 18+ ? Sorry, I'm confused!

[Guest Autumn days]

Perhaps I am really going to put my foot in it but I do think that people need to look at it from another perspective. In my view, dancers are lucky to get any government funding at all in both lower or upper schools. So many young people struggle to achieve what they want in life with no help at all and many have to give up because they can't afford it. At the end of the day, these dance schools ARE private schools and we do have a choice.

 

As to the debate about student loans, again, they are lucky to be able to access them in some schools when they are just 16 as they are generally only available at 18.

 

Many, many people would argue that, as a country, there are more important people/things to spend money on than dance.

 

Before everyone jumps up and down, I know it is very, very tough and that people facedifficulychoices. I have a child who wants to audition next year and I will be directly affected by the changes BUT I do think that sometimes you have to look at the bigger picture.

[balletla]

It is more the lack of consistency that is the real issue here. I would not have made huge financial sacrifices to send my child to vocational school on an MDS for the last 5 years if I knew that it was going to be completely unaffordable for her to continue that training at sixth form. That is an indefensible waste of my money and government money. If I'd known at the start that there wasn't any funding I would have made different choices

 

It is also the fact that the government cannot decided what type of further education this is and their policies do not align i.e. it is considered to be more advanced that the usual 16+ education when it comes to stopping child benefit but not when it comes to accessing student loans.

 

Its about having a CONSISTENT funding policy!

[Lildancer96]

Can I just add that choosing to train abroad isn't an easier option and it takes a very talented individual to be offered a place at a school such as the Bolshoi -whatever the cost- not many would have this choice!

[Guest Autumn days]

It is more the lack of consistency that is the real issue here. I would not have made huge financial sacrifices to send my child to vocational school on an MDS for the last 5 years if I knew that it was going to be completely unaffordable for her to continue that training at sixth form. That is an indefensible waste of my money and government money. If I'd known at the start that there wasn't any funding I would have made different choices

 

It is also the fact that the government cannot decided what type of further education this is and their policies do not align i.e. it is considered to be more advanced that the usual 16+ education when it comes to stopping child benefit but not when it comes to accessing student loans.

 

Its about having a CONSISTENT funding policy!

That in itself is a fair point!

[kiwimum6]

Mum in a spin, I see what you are saying,,,however many of us feel that we have been sold down the river.

 

 If you look at the original MDS website the idea behaind the funding was to ensure that no talented child would be deprived of training purely because of financial circumstances.  We bought in to that idea and have been lucky to have had four children benefit from MDS funding.  We did, indeed, make that choice and chose to send them to private school as that was where the training is.  That funding is also available for the training of musicians...indeed a considerably larger amount for musicians than dancers.

 

 In recognition that talented children may not come from affluent families, MDS contributions are means tested and stretch families to the limit.  I agree that it should.  We have made the choice and made the sacrifices.  Now, however, because of the change in the economic climate, there is to be no allowance made for siblings already in training.. Indeed, the two government departments for MDS and Dada work separately and any amount we pay out on dada will not be factored into MDS contributions which are already calculated to make us pay the most we can.  Had we been aware of this before embarking on training we may have made different choices but that was not how it was sold at the time.  Now, years down the line, after all the sacrifices made by the family to keep the children training, it seems to late to have wasted all that public and family investment to pull them out part way through their training.

 

I remember when , 'Every Child Matters' was the political phrase du jour.  I believe children should be allowed to reach their potential.  Not all children excel academically but may excel in the arts.The question we should be asking is whether school providing this training should be private schools at all?  After all, we all work and pay towards the best public sector education for our children and I believe they should have the education suited to their needs.

 

I was shocked to read how little, relatively speaking that is, it costs to send a child to Paris Opera Ballet......and feel ashamed that so little attention is paid to the arts which is what makes civilisations great!

 

In a recent communication from the departnent they reinforced that this was a life-style choice, hence no credit would be given for multiple siblings pursuing this path...yet just such credit is given at present under the MDS scheme.  They mentioned that other families budget for elderly care and university places for offspring....I agree...we have to do that too!

 

We bought into the idea that we could contribute to help our children achieve their potential and now the political goalposts have changed meaning many people will not be able to take up dada offers..  

 

Perhaps the places at the schools will still be taken up and I may be worrying unnecessarily about school finances but could it possibly have the long term effect of a dilution of standards?

[Aurora]

The consequences of this are being felt already at the RBS where they are cutting staff and restructuring the school. The other schools have previously had more flexibility as they could offer quite a few non-funded places to make up some of the shortfall; something that RBS is not able to do as all their policy is that all places are funded.

But that would mean that RBS couldn't take anyone from a family earning over £70K as it wouldn't be a funded place. That can't be right! Or have I misinterpreted what you meant?!

[Guest Autumn days]

I agree that it is even tougher for those already on MDS and that it does seem unfair to change the system midway through training. Not all contributors to this thread have children currently in the system, though. I'm not referring to anyone in particular here, by the way, just generalising that we are lucky to get any funding at all.

 

Kiwi mum sys that everyone should be entitled to an education that best suits their needs. Should we then have state funded schools ffrom the age of 11 for dedicated footballers, tennis players, gymnasts, magicians, swimmers, horse riders, poets...........? In an ideal world, wouldn't that be great but, as it stands, why do dancers and musicians deserve to treated differently?

 

Edited to add that reading this again it sounds as though I am being sarcastic and I'm not. It really would be great if school for all these things existed, but sadly they dont????

Edited April 14, 2013 by mum in a spin

[balletla]

But that would mean that RBS couldn't take anyone from a family earning over £70K as it wouldn't be a funded place. That can't be right! Or have I misinterpreted what you meant?!

RBS Upper School is funded through MDS not DaDA and therefore is a continuation of the lower school funding arrangements.

[Aurora]

Oh yes, I forgot about that! So people get MDS and pay contributions too depending on how much they earn don't they? There's no cut-off for that one still?

[taxi4ballet]

Perhaps I am really going to put my foot in it but I do think that people need to look at it from another perspective. In my view, dancers are lucky to get any government funding at all in both lower or upper schools. So many young people struggle to achieve what they want in life with no help at all and many have to give up because they can't afford it. At the end of the day, these dance schools ARE private schools and we do have a choice.

 

 

I suppose you can only really be said to have a choice when you are free to pick either one thing or another.

 

When our dd was offered an unfunded place at Tring, we weren't able to choose whether or not to pay for her to go - we had no choice in the matter at all. 

[HAIRBELLES]

The cut off for MDS is £180,000 vastly different to dada .

IMO for what it's worth schools that offer MDS should carry on into upper school as RBS .I know this happens at Tring but is this discretionary ?

[taxi4ballet]

The cut off for MDS is £180,000 vastly different to dada .

IMO for what it's worth schools that offer MDS should carry on into upper school as RBS .I know this happens at Tring but is this discretionary ?

 

Could this be the reason that there are so few MDS places at Tring this year?

 

Places which would have normally been released are unavailable because the students currently on them are carrying them into 6th form instead of going on to DaDa funding which they now can't afford...

[HAIRBELLES]

I don't believe that would be the case taxi4ballet .

I think it is usual for Tring to only have a few places and if it were the case it would even out over the years as the upper years left the MDS awards would come back into lower years as happens at the other schools ( not sure Ive explained that very well)

[Tulip]

Another way to view matters is to consider how lucky children were to have had government MDS funding for five years with access to a good education. Even with government funding nothing was ever guaranteed. There was always that risk of a MDS being taken from a child, what was going to happen then. Some people I know would have sold their houses and relocated ect ect. My point is nothing in life is guaranteed, we are going backwards with this government, I fear eventually only the rich families will be able to send their children to university ect ect. Just because a child had a MDS did not guarantee them continuing with that funding nor did it guarantee them a DA DA. Once a child gets to GSCE year funding is not removed only in severe cases. I believe funding should go to the most talented children, however contributions from families should definitely be looked at. I was trying my best to keep out of this discussion for fear of coming across wrong in written form especially as we are all so supportive of each other. However lets hope we can share views without any back lashes?

[taxi4ballet]

I don't believe that would be the case taxi4ballet .

I think it is usual for Tring to only have a few places and if it were the case it would even out over the years as the upper years left the MDS awards would come back into lower years as happens at the other schools ( not sure Ive explained that very well)

 

Yes, it will even out eventually. What I mean is - that perhaps this year some of the students going into 6th form won't be going onto DaDas as would have been the case in previous years.

 

They are keeping their MDS places instead, which means that there have been fewer MDS places released back into the system for younger students.

[Lildancer96]

I don't think this is anything new- mds is far more generous than dada and I'm sure most students would accept that over dada if staying at the same school .

[rowan]

And foreign students, especially those from outside Europe, don't qualify for awards, I assume. Maybe private sponsorship is found for some, though. So, would this be a reason why the UK schools have started holding auditons abroad? Central and Elmhurst  hold auditions in Japan now, I believe. And ENBS is holding its first summer school in America, and will be scouting for students there. More students from abroad will mean fewer places for home-grown students, but perhaps it might make more funding available for the Brits.

[Aurora]

Maybe we'll end up going more towards the US system of training with pre-pro schools (fairly local) leading straight to auditions for contracts rather than vocational schools?

[rowan]

Yes, I suspect the schools will be doing more fundraising themselves - hence the growth of dance summer schools in the UK.

[Jazzpaws]

Would it work better if the  DADA scheme is replaced by the Conservatoire scheme, and student finance is available to students at 16.

IF I understand it properly, fees are topped(depending on family income) up and then student finance is available for the remainder of fees and maintenance costs.

This would help out low income families and those families with a high income would have to pay far less. Plus, successful dancers and actors would eventually pay back into the system. It sounds far too easy so I am sure I have been very silly and missed something vital !!

Am i right (probably am)  in assuming that if a DC receives a DADA, then child benefit and any portion of child tax credits goes ?

[taxi4ballet]

And foreign students, especially those from outside Europe, don't qualify for awards, I assume. Maybe private sponsorship is found for some, though. So, would this be a reason why the UK schools have started holding auditons abroad? Central and Elmhurst  hold auditions in Japan now, I believe. And ENBS is holding its first summer school in America, and will be scouting for students there. More students from abroad will mean fewer places for home-grown students, but perhaps it might make more funding available for the Brits.

 

I'm inclined to think that it will make less funding available, if anything. The government will assume that UK training isn't up to scratch because the students aren't able to compete in a global marketplace, and they'll decide that perhaps they shouldn't be funding ballet training at all.

[spooky]

I was told the following information from the dada adminstrator at one school which I believe shows the enormous problem faced by the schools themselves in administring the new system.

 

Previously each school was told they had been awarded x number of dadas and so they could take the top x names from their talent list (their wording) and tell them they would recieve funding.

 

This year they have just been given a 'pot' of money equivilent to the funding they recieved over the last few years. So now the number of funded places will depend on the personal financial circumstances of those at the top of the talent list. If lots of the 'most talented' come from lower income families then overall fewer funded places can be offered and vice-versa. Schools need to be careful not to give out more funded places than they can afford which is really difficult if financial income is not known beforehand (which is the recommended route to ensure only the most talented are selected) so it is entirely possible that dada offers may trickle out more slowly this year with some recieving offers quite late in the year.

 

Another piece of useful information was that schools are not allowed to ask for a deposit/acceptance fee/reservation fee in order to hold open an offered place if the student would not be able to attend without funding. I have heard of some MT schools asking for up to £250 to hold a place prior to funding results being known.

[balletla]

Another way to view matters is to consider how lucky children were to have had government MDS funding for five years with access to a good education. Even with government funding nothing was ever guaranteed. There was always that risk of a MDS being taken from a child, what was going to happen then. 

 

Sorry Tulip but a child having their funding taken away due to no longer being considered suitable or being able to gain a 6th form place is very different to there not being a route available at all due to lack of government joined up policy. I certainly do not feel lucky to have paid out thousands of pounds over 5 years and through no fault of my own or my child who has shown she has got the talent to succeed, have no means whatsoever of finishing that training! 

[2dancersmum]

To me the new system of DADA funding has a good idea in principle ie parental contribution depending on income but it is flawed for 2 main reasons. 1 - the sllding scale is completely wrong - it should have gone up to £100k at least and have had a maximum parental contribution level rather than full fees and 2 - it only takes into account 1 child.  Statisitcally many families with more than 1 child will typically have a 2-3 year gap between siblings and dance school or university both require parental contributions unless on an income of less than £28k.  I know university students get loans but the maintenance loans do not always cover accommodation costs, let alone lving costs so families are having to pay out on all fronts without any outgoings on other children being taken into consideration.

[Tulip]

You are not on your own Ribbons, but as I have pointed out there are no guarantees in life. This is what this government has decided to do regarding its budgets, hundreds of families have been hit hard. Families are struggling to put food on their tables let alone anything else. MDS's and DA DA's were always a privilege as a way in affording our most talented students to pursue a career in dance. Sadly everything is changing, but what have families put in place as a contingency? I am even thinking of what I will do if student loans go. Would we down size our house, go down to sharing a small run around car, take a second job, no more luxuries such as summer schools? Would we still be able to afford it, if not then sadly and regrettably that would be the end of the road. I am not talking about one child, I am talking about three, who have worked solidly with their academics, who have earned a place at their chosen universities, but without funding do not have right for a free or a reduced cost place. I accept this and am so grateful at this moment in time, my kids have had the opportunity to apply for student loans. This might not always be the case and I will be sad for all those other kids who won't be able to go to uni because of lack of money.

 

 So yes I do think we have been lucky to have had this funding so far, and it has been gladly appreciated even if it has had to be enhanced with additional thousands of pounds, it was never there as a 'right', it was never 'owed', it was an award. YES of course I hope funding continues but goodness me I can honestly see all arts as being last on this governments list of priorities. Do I feel panicky the way things are changing, bet your bottom dollar I do, but I don't feel angry as there are so many other people in a far worse situation than what I will be in.

[balletla]

I'm sorry but it is just not the same. It is highly unlikely that student loans would ever go as that would rule out university education for a huge percentage of the country which is not in anyone's interest. Secondly, it would not affect those currently on university courses, just like the change to DaDA has not been instigated for those currently in training. Thirdly, even if student loans were abolished and you had a child denied access, you would not have spent years paying out thousands of pounds only to be denied funding part way through their university course - you would know in advance that it was not possible.

 

It is appalling treatment by the government to move the goal posts so rapidly and to deny those who are completing their 5 years of MDS an opportunity to continue and finish their 6th form training. It is tantamount to pulling funding part way through a training course and is unforgivable in my book. It is a complete waste of time to partially train somebody and is far crueler than denying them funding in the first place. 

[Pas de Quatre]

Why is it that only a place with DaDA funding is acceptable for you for 6th form Ribbons?  What is wrong with a student who trained with MDS support up to 16 then going to one of the schools which offer degrees, and therefore have access to student loans?  I thought this happened all the time.  Auditions for entry to 6th forms are a flat playing field, where you went before doesn't count, they just want to see just how good your dancing is.

[balletla]

Someone who starts ballet training at vocational school at 11 is not fully trained by 16 and needs to continue that training through 6th form. Some of them won't make it to 6th form either through personal choice or through not being selected. But for the ones that do get selected, surely it makes sense to enable the continuation of accessible funding otherwise why have the first 5 years at vocational school? What is the point? Your child trains for 5 years on the basis that you might be lucky enough to afford to continue by the time they reach 16 if you can afford full fees? That just wastes everybody's money and is pointless, although if that had been the situation when she started and I chose to take that risk, that is fair enough. The fact is, everything has changed at 6 months notice - too late for those already in the system. It this had been the state of play and she was starting now, there is no way she would have gone to vocational school as we would have known it would be pointless as we wouldn't be able to afford the DaDA places. We have paid out thousands for training that is now wasted! If she had got a DaDA place last year, we would be paying less than half of what we are expected to find now.

 

As for why DaDA places the only ones acceptable - it's because that is how the majority of schools are funded and she has been offered 3 places at schools with DaDA funding. The only option that isn't DaDA for student loans is Central (for classical ballet).

 

Edited to say: And the Government has paid out thousands for DD's 5 years of training as well - so their money is wasted. All that money could have been used to fund more nurses/starving children etc.

Edited April 14, 2013 by Ribbons