ZooZoo Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 I am still confused about the interaction between funding and being offered a place. If they make you fill in your income before you audition (do they?) then someone earning say, £60,000 must be the most unlikely to be offered a place, no? Because that will "use up" a DaDa place but only for a small governmental payment. Or am a wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BankruptMum Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 I am still confused about the interaction between funding and being offered a place. If they make you fill in your income before you audition (do they?) then someone earning say, £60,000 must be the most unlikely to be offered a place, no? Because that will "use up" a DaDa place but only for a small governmental payment. Or am a wrong? I truly dont know but surely their first priority is to recruit the correct students. Places will jiggle around as and when offers are made and those who have multiple offers to decide between make up their minds and release places at other schools. Financial decisions will be part of that decision making. If schools are going to start making judgements based on financial backgrounds then we have no hope in training the dancers of the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pas de Quatre Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 Actually, I think the school gets their full fees for each student whatever happens. It is how the payment is divided between government or parent funding that varies. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZooZoo Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 Ah so I think I understand. Say, Elmhurst has 30 places for students. It has 20 funded and 10 unfunded. If it takes 12 "rich" students it does not get paid any less, but that year it only takes 18 funded students. It does not want to do this, because it is worried that it will only then be offered 18 funded places the following year. Is this the logic? Apologies for use of "rich" as I know that earning over the limit is not always "rich" etc. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecarte Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 Suzyszoo. I think what I was trying to say was that the system stinks and particularly in this transition year no one is quite sure how DADAs work or quite how they are awarded. Both initial offers of DaDa funding were made before income declaration but one specific Dada audition was undertaken knowing very broad financial circumstances. Even though we have been offered one and accepted a DaDa there are still further hoops to jump through and things will not be confirmed for several months yet. We are just the guinea pigs. However I do know that some who were over the threshold were asked to attend DaDa auditions anyway. maybe there are hidden pots of money within the schools who knows. Perhaps this muddy pool may clear slightly once a full cycle of this new system has occurred. One thing is for sure it's stressful however you are or are not funded! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
balletla Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 Ah so I think I understand. Say, Elmhurst has 30 places for students. It has 20 funded and 10 unfunded. If it takes 12 "rich" students it does not get paid any less, but that year it only takes 18 funded students. It does not want to do this, because it is worried that it will only then be offered 18 funded places the following year. Is this the logic? Apologies for use of "rich" as I know that earning over the limit is not always "rich" etc. Yes you have hit it spot on. Yes priority will be given to students who qualify for a DaDA funded place. I know some people are reluctant to acknowledge this unsavoury fact, but it has to be the case as schools will not be able to carry unused DaDA funding into next year and the way government budgets work is "use it or lose it" It is ironic that some schools are now looking at their own internal scholarship and bursary funding to try to help out the so called 'rich' students who just cannot afford it this year, whereas in previous years all of this money would have been available to help out just the lowest earners and those from overseas. It is a shame that these internal scholarship/bursary funds are now going to have to stretch even further! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2dancersmum Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 As spanner says , any student being offered a place at upper school has done really well. Leaving aside RBS,Central, Rambert and the Scottish ballet schools where funding is different, I think it should be remembered that Tring, Hammond and Northern all offer places after the first audition and before financial information is requested so these places are offered on merit/talent and not on who can afford what. Northern allocate DADAs on a points system from the first audition and Tring and Hammond use the second audition to allocate funding NOT to decide if the applicant is good enough for a place at their school. They have already offered the place! It is at this point that the new DADA system with all its faults starts affecting if students can accept their places or not. I read also on this thread that ENBS did not request financial information before their finals so surely the offers then made must also be based on merit. I think next year the new DADA system will effect applications in terms of where people apply but this year please remember people applied before any details were released. There are numerous dancers out there who have been offered places and cannot accept because of these last minute funding changes and there will be some who get DADAs this year that might not have otherwise. But these are all talented dancers and I hope no-one takes the view of Ecartes DDs so called friend and belittles the dancers achievements. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
balletla Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 It doesn't really matter whether they know the financial information before or after. If after the final, it becomes clear that you are not eligible for a DaDA funded place then you get told that you can come if you pay full fees and the DaDA then gets offered to the next person on the the waiting list. If you can't afford your full fee place, then the next person on the waiting list who does qualify for DaDA effectively gets prioritised over you. He/she ends up attending the school and you don't (unless by some means you can afford the full fee place). If you can't afford the full fee place, it gets offered to the next full fee paying person on the waiting list to see if they can afford it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulip Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 I am sure schools will offer places to the most talented students of course they will as some people may be able to afford these places. Some student may even be fortunate to find a sponsor. DaDa must surely be dealt with secondly as a desperate issue. Agreed in the end the most talented student may not be able to afford their place but this has happened in the past. Even with a Da Da the cost of travel and accommodation may still leave families not able to afford these additions. My point is I am sure initially the schools will offer their places to the most talented students if they can't take that place then it will be offered to the next person on their waiting list. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulip Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 Separate issue I was meant to wright not desperate, predictive text grrr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2dancersmum Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 I disagree with your first statement, Ribbons If a student is offered a place BEFORE financial information is known then that place has been offered on talent and not on the basis of a parents salary. The effect of this new DADA system which unfairly rules out a proportion of the talented students because of parental income comes into place once financial information is known. But what you describes implies that the school will withdraw the offer of a place and offer it to someone else instead. I thought that on the contrary the schools keep their offers open - it is us the parents that decline the places because we cannot afford them or we accept places elsewhere or for other reasons. Waiting lists at schools like Tring, Northen and Hammond are for funding not for actual places. I know for most of us that amounts to the same thing (no funding cannot go) but that is not the case for everyone. I do not believe the new system is fair and the way it has been introduced is a disgrace. This years applicants have been the hardest hit and maybe campaigns wil eventually make a difference, but too late for this year. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
balletla Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 I didn't say that the places weren't offered on talent, what I said was that it doesn't matter whether they are or not - the end result is the same. A student offered a DaDA place on talent who does not qualify for that place because of income, effectively gets replaced by the next person on the waiting list who does qualify for funding. The school may not know who qualifies for funding, so they work their way through the waiting list till they find someone who can accept the place. Meanwhile the people who have been offered a place who don't qualify for funding still keep their place offer but they have to decide if they can afford full fees. Most won't be able to so they will decline. Some will and they will accept. We are not talking huge numbers here but by default, some people further down the list will get in and some further up the list won't. It actually makes the usual job of offering places far harder than ever before for the schools, because some of the people they want are not eligible for funding and can't afford full fees, so more places are being turned down than ever before, meaning the whole system is in chaos. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulip Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 Yes but those students on the waiting list are still what the schoo want otherwise they wouldn't be on their list. There are a couple of girls who were on the waiting list in my daughters year who are just as good as good as all the students in that year. An audition is a snap shot on the day some may have better physique that a few of the others, but all of them will be good including those on the waiting list. I understand the point you are making Ribbons but even with a Da Da some of the best student could not afford their place. Yes it is worse than ever this year but it is not something new. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guesty Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 We have been offered a DaDA and i am a single parent who gets no help from dd father, earning a lot less than the £21000 means testing they start with. I will still have to get a loan or re mortgage or sell my bod(oh la la) to raise the funds to pay for accommodation and living. Its not a free ride down here. Certainly the schools dd has been offered did not ask for financials pre dada so i don't feel she only got her place on income! Its tough for all of us regardless to find the top up to allow our kids to follow their dreams.... 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulip Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 Yes it is tough but all the best to your daughter livingonaprayer, which school has she chosen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzpaws Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 We have been offered a DaDA and i am a single parent who gets no help from dd father, earning a lot less than the £21000 means testing they start with. I will still have to get a loan or re mortgage or sell my bod(oh la la) to raise the funds to pay for accommodation and living. Its not a free ride down here. Certainly the schools dd has been offered did not ask for financials pre dada so i don't feel she only got her place on income! Its tough for all of us regardless to find the top up to allow our kids to follow their dreams.... I'll be just like you next year if DD is fortunate enough to have offer. It would be so much fairer if all could access student finance. There are so many degree courses that have this option compared to all the vocational courses put together. These DC's work so hard for years to get where they are, their dedication should be recognised 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guesty Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 Jazzpaws...your in the right place to find out all the info to help you next year. Its quite the process! Tulip she is going with Tring in the end after much thought. It ticks all her boxes and she felt at home there she said! Have put a lottery ticket on this eve which i rarely do...if i get a big win i can make lots of dc dreams come true... fingers crossed peps...! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guesty Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 Jazzpaws...your in the right place to find out all the info to help you next year. Its quite the process! Tulip she is going with Tring in the end after much thought. It ticks all her boxes and she felt at home there she said! Have put a lottery ticket on this eve which i rarely do...if i get a big win i can make lots of dc dreams come true... fingers crossed peps...! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzpaws Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 From what I can see - there is about a £5000 shortfall at Tring, even with full DADA and maintenance - am I on the right track ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lildancer96 Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 Huge congrats to your dd. just wanted to mention that you can save thousands by making your own living arrangements - have sent you a private message x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurora Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 From what I can see - there is about a £5000 shortfall at Tring, even with full DADA and maintenance - am I on the right track ? Hmmm a £15K loan for the 3 years for those with full dada or a £75K (-ish, I'm guessing!) loan for those over the cut-off? On a low income I would certainly consider getting a loan for 15, on a 'high' income (£70K) it couldn't even be a consideration. I'm not getting into another debate about who is better off etc, just saying (again) how unfair the system is. Nobody is getting a free ride. Don't know why they had to change it in the first place tbh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lildancer96 Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 To be honest there isn't much difference between the new and old system for lower household incomes. Those on dada last year still have to pay boarding at about 1000 a month . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzpaws Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 Pretty impossible to just take out a loan for £15000, if earning less than £20000 and with other living, mortgage costs etc to contend with. - lenders are not that kind. I think dance students deserve the same opportunity that academic students have to student finance. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurora Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 Absolutely! Reckon it'd be pretty impossible for me to get a loan for £75K+ too - completely impossible in fact!! Just can't believe they keep implying there are government funded courses available and it's people's choice to go private. If ballet is your career choice there are no good funded courses at all! Real sickener for those who have sacrificed so much (personally and financially) for years 7-11 on an MDS or part-scholarship and now have to withdraw from training completely - must be awful for them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzpaws Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 I think there are more than 50,000 undergraduate courses available each year which are eligible for student finance, wonder how many vocational ballet courses there are. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
if only! Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 I think it doesn't matter what end of the scale you are... top, bottom or in the middle. £5k to someone on £20k (1/4 of income) could be as impossible as some who have the phenomenal amount they are expected to pay at the other end. And as for the poor souls in the middle. No one's a winner. The whole system is unfair. ALL talented dancers deserve equal training, somehow. Don't know who's going to pay for it though, our government certainly isn't forthcoming when supporting the Arts. Petitions do work, look at the petition against ebacc, so keep petitioning for a fairer scheme. BUT what I am beginning to think is perhaps the cost of the training itself is at fault. Why does it have to cost so much* when dancers are paid so little? *n.b. I'm not a dancer or dance teacher or never have been and I do see the amazing skills of the teachers/pianists etc at these dance schools... but why does it have to cost so much? Does it cost this much in other countries? It's after midnight and I'm usually a pumpkin at this hour so not sure if my waffle makes sense but all those who have gained a place at a vocational dance school deserve a huge pat on the back... and, if I can find that fairy godmother, a generous amount of funding too! 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurora Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 (edited) Yes I think despite the difficulty in getting a loan at whichever end if the scale you are, it's more the thought of paying £75K+ for ANY training that doesn't have a guaranteed and well paid job at the end of it. A £15K investment seems more realistic, more like university fees which is far more acceptable. I have no idea why it costs quite so much to educate dancers. I'm sure the schools don't make huge profits so where does the money go? Is it just because they don't cram loads of students in and can only have limited numbers working with a teacher at a time perhaps? Edited April 13, 2013 by Aurora Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
if only! Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 Aren't 18 out of the 29 cabinet ministers millionaires? Perhaps they could chip in! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurora Posted April 14, 2013 Share Posted April 14, 2013 Excellent plan lol! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
primrose Posted April 14, 2013 Share Posted April 14, 2013 15k might as well be 100k if you are earning so little money. I know which end of the scale I would prefer to be on. It would also be much easier to get a loan if you earn more money and have a mortgage, as you have capital. Two years ago when my dd chose to train abroad I had to look for sponsorship to help pay my dds fees. I recieved a lot of support from the old forum, but I also recieved a lot of negative comments from a few people stating why would I allow my dd to audtion for a school knowing we wouldnt be able to afford to pay the fees. (One person even phoned the schools in this country where my dd had been offered Dadas to tell them that my dd would be going abroad). I kept going because I believed in my daughters abilities, that it would happen and it did. The funding situation is not going to get better any time soon, we only have to look at how the benefit system has been cut to see that the government will not be changing its views any time soon. The schools themselves will have to look at their own budgets and fees they are charging students. Students themselves will also have to start looking at other avenues of training and that could well be abroad. Parents themselves will now have to start doing more, and that may mean looking for sponsorship or second jobs. If the fees cant be paid then unfortunately the journey ends. I know this sounds really harsh and I am not suggesting that parents arent doing everything in their power to look for funding, but I am just saying it how it is. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
if only! Posted April 14, 2013 Share Posted April 14, 2013 I totally agree Primrose, you've hit the nail on the head. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kat09 Posted April 14, 2013 Share Posted April 14, 2013 Could anyone clarify for me as to whether household income applies to gross or nett salaries please. From looking at the Gov website I cannot find the info - many thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millie3 Posted April 14, 2013 Author Share Posted April 14, 2013 Unfortunately it's gross KAT09. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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