thewinelake Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 I'd always assumed the former, but a friend tells me that there should be no "The" - I was shocked! Is he right? And who's to say? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob S Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 (edited) The Disney films are called Sleeping Beauty...the ballet, at least the Royal Ballet's, is called The Sleeping Beauty Edited January 24, 2022 by Rob S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebastian Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 (edited) That's a fun question! A quick look through a random selection of postWW2 programmes shows everyone - including the Kirov when they appeared in London - using The Sleeping Beauty. But on the other hand, it's a Russian ballet and there are no words in Russian for 'the'. So for example here is what the title looks like on the cover of the 1893 Imperial Theatres programme in St Petersburg: Edited January 24, 2022 by Sebastian 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LinMM Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 Perhaps it’s the American way of making things less formal....by omitting “The”? By adding the “The” I think it makes it slightly more of a unique occurrence....there’s only one possible Sleeping Beauty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob S Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 1 hour ago, Sebastian said: and there are no words in Russian for 'the'. WF! 😲 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alison Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 Or "a", are there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebastian Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 3 hours ago, alison said: Or "a", are there? Indeed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewinelake Posted January 25, 2022 Author Share Posted January 25, 2022 On 24/01/2022 at 14:07, Rob S said: WF! 😲 Same in Latin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meetmeatthebarre Posted January 25, 2022 Share Posted January 25, 2022 39 minutes ago, thewinelake said: Same in Latin Or Japanese, Chinese, Turkish, Swahili, Pashto... by many measures of counting, languages with articles are in the minority 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scheherezade Posted January 25, 2022 Share Posted January 25, 2022 1 hour ago, Meetmeatthebarre said: Or Japanese, Chinese, Turkish, Swahili, Pashto... by many measures of counting, languages with articles are in the minority Who knew! Well, I didn’t, at any rate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barrybounce Posted January 25, 2022 Share Posted January 25, 2022 (edited) What a small world it is (Hello thewinelake)! And if when you start Googling a question what turns up is a post by the person that commented to you about the matter... then I guess you're not going to find an answer! I have seven programmes for said ballet, two in languages without definite articles, three "The Sleeping Beauty", and two "Sleeping Beauty" (both companies from countries with no definite article touring the UK). In the course of my travels on Google I was also delighted to discover that composer Erkki Melartin also wrote music for a ballet Prinsessa Ruusunen just a few years after the more famous version, and of course as he was Finnish that doesn't help either Edited January 25, 2022 by barrybounce 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan McNulty Posted January 25, 2022 Share Posted January 25, 2022 Hello barrybounce and welcome to the Forum! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonbfisher Posted January 26, 2022 Share Posted January 26, 2022 5 hours ago, Meetmeatthebarre said: Or Japanese, Chinese, Turkish, Swahili, Pashto... by many measures of counting, languages with articles are in the minority But what a well-endowed minority : German for example has a rich choice of 16 words for “the”! 💪🏼🇩🇪 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amelia Posted January 26, 2022 Share Posted January 26, 2022 On 24/01/2022 at 15:59, alison said: Or "a", are there? There are no equivalents in Russian language to such articles like English "the" and "a". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pas de Quatre Posted January 26, 2022 Share Posted January 26, 2022 (edited) When The Sleeping Beauty was created, French was the official language of the Russian Court in St. Petersburg, so programmes, posters etc were for La Belle au Bois Dormant. So in the English translation it could be considered necessary to have "The". On the other hand we aways translate La Belle et la Bête as Beauty and the Beast without any articles. Both stories come from Charles Perrault's collection of Fairy Tales. Edited January 26, 2022 by Pas de Quatre Sp 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebastian Posted January 26, 2022 Share Posted January 26, 2022 1 hour ago, Pas de Quatre said: When The Sleeping Beauty was created, French was the official language of the Russian Court in St. Petersburg, so programmes, posters etc were for La Belle au Bois Dormant. Thanks. It would be good to see examples of this, can you point to where they are to be found? If you scroll up you’ll find my post from Monday with an example from an official Imperial Theatre’s programme of 1893 (three years after the premiere). This shows the Russian name: Spyashchaya krasavitsa. Other examples showing something different would be really interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lizbie1 Posted January 26, 2022 Share Posted January 26, 2022 My understanding was that Russian was much the most commonly used language at the Russian court by this time - I believe that the Tsar at the time, Alexander III, was a strong advocate of this. More generally I get the impression that the use of French in Russian aristocratic circles is somewhat overstated in the West. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewinelake Posted January 26, 2022 Author Share Posted January 26, 2022 What a remarkably fascinating digression! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emeralds Posted January 26, 2022 Share Posted January 26, 2022 Of the most recent productions I’ve seen in Britain, Birmingham Royal Ballet, English National Ballet and Royal Ballet all call it The Sleeping Beauty on the official production information pages. However, ENB’s condensed and modified version for small children in their My First Ballet tours danced by English National Ballet School students (using the main company production costumes) officially uses just “Sleeping Beauty”. I can’t say I’ve ever been too concerned about the....umm, “The”..... as long as the choreography credits contain the name Petipa and the music credit contains the name Tchaikovsky. 😁 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emeralds Posted January 26, 2022 Share Posted January 26, 2022 American Ballet Theatre, New York City Ballet and Australian Ballet also call their productions The Sleeping Beauty as well. I guess that pretty much answers the question! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebastian Posted January 27, 2022 Share Posted January 27, 2022 22 hours ago, Lizbie1 said: My understanding was that Russian was much the most commonly used language at the Russian court by this time - I believe that the Tsar at the time, Alexander III, was a strong advocate of this. More generally I get the impression that the use of French in Russian aristocratic circles is somewhat overstated in the West. These are interesting points @Lizbie1. In relation to The Sleeping Beauty, it is worth considering what one might call the “Frenchness” of Tchaikovsky. The best work on this issue has not been done in Russia - perhaps unsurprisingly - nor either in France, but rather in Germany, by the respected academic Lucinde Braun, whose several works on the subject I can heartily recommend. For more on the overall questions you raise, and at the risk of self-promotion, you could have a look at my old post here: 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angela Posted January 27, 2022 Share Posted January 27, 2022 On 26/01/2022 at 01:07, simonbfisher said: But what a well-endowed minority : German for example has a rich choice of 16 words for “the”! 💪🏼🇩🇪 Way too many, if you ask people who learn German... And we don't use on of the 16 for (The) Sleeping Beauty 🙃 - the old fairy tale, that the Brothers Grimm adapted from Charles Perreault, as well as the ballet are called "Dornröschen" in German, which literally translated means "little rose with thorns" and uses the diminutive form of the name "Rose" in an endearing way. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pas de Quatre Posted January 27, 2022 Share Posted January 27, 2022 On 26/01/2022 at 08:35, Sebastian said: Thanks. It would be good to see examples of this, can you point to where they are to be found? If you scroll up you’ll find my post from Monday with an example from an official Imperial Theatre’s programme of 1893 (three years after the premiere). This shows the Russian name: Spyashchaya krasavitsa. Other examples showing something different would be really interesting. Sorry I don't have a link. Everything I wrote is based on what I learnt many years ago in History of Ballet and normal history studies e.g. for causes of the 1st World War. At that time Paris was considered the centre of the world artistically and intellectually. French was the diplomatic language used internationally. (English only replaced French during the 20th Century as technology became more important). The Russian Royal family intermarried with other European Royal Families and considered themselves European and valued all things French. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shade Posted January 28, 2022 Share Posted January 28, 2022 Interesting - I have just finished the Petipa biography and think the ballet is referred to as The Sleeping Beauty but not sure if that is authoritative. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Macmillan Posted January 28, 2022 Share Posted January 28, 2022 From two of the tomes within arm's reach: Balanchine's Festival of Ballet, Vol 2: The Sleeping Beauty Cyril Beaumont's Complete Book of Ballets: The Sleeping Princess And on it goes ... potayto, potato, tomayto, tomato etc 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FionaM Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 Is current usage moving towards trimming titles … e.g. to ‘Nutcracker’ and ‘Sleeping Beauty’. In Russian ‘La Bayadere’ is just ‘Bayadere’ .. ‘Bayaderka’ .. ‘баядерка’ Why isn’t ‘Swan Lake’ known as ‘The Swan Lake’? Or ‘Swans’ Lake’? Or ‘‘The Lake of Swans’? Hmm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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