Going Back to ballet continued...

[LinMM]

I know that within my one particular class on the days I do ballet I do give a lot of concentration (well I do have off days when it can take the whole barre to get 'in' the class) and focus trying to get the technique for each exercise correct and.....trying at least....to get some artistic merit for my current ability into each exercise as well...trying to use the music well...etc etc. all these considerations!

 

I feel I just could not give this level of concentration and focus to yet another class or classes on the same day.

 

I was trying to think of an analogy for the quality over quantity argument and although its not that perfect I thought of smelling perfume of a flower or just a bottle. The first smell is usually the most powerful. After a while your nose gets used to the smell(don't know the science behind this) and you no longer get that really strong hit...it's in ever decreasing returns after that!

 

Perhaps you can apply this to the spirit of doing a ballet class? ? ?

[Jan McNulty]

My plies, tendues, pirouettes, extensions, battements -everything, in fact - have greatly improved over the last year. I can see the difference and so can my teacher. I do not practice at home or have more than one class a week. What I do have is time, patience, good technique and an excellent teacher. I am under no illusions about what I can achieve this late in my life and am happy with that. After all, none of us are capable of being a prima ballerina now! :-D

Well said Fiz!

[DavidW]

Hi all!

 

Sorry for a delayed response - I'm just catching up with the thread... I just wanted to add something to the stretching etc conversation.

 

Recently I started taking Hot (Bikram) Yoga classes once a week. This involves doing pretty intense yoga in a purposefully heated room (I think the advert says it's around 45C?). Class always start with a slow warm up and builds to trickier poses but I've found that it's really helped my flexibility (as well as being a great workout!). This week one of the sequences culminated in the splits (!) and whilst I'm still nowhere near being flat on the floor, I'm much closer than I've ever been (less than a hand span). Outside of the yoga classes I've found in my ballet classes I'm more flexible - last week I managed to shoulder my right leg for the first time and could stretch my left more than usual once shouldered (still can't quite believe I can shoulder either leg considering when I stared ballet 3 years ago I couldn't touch my toes!).

 

In terms of classes I've actually just dropped a couple of classes (I'm entering my, hopefully, final year of my PhD and can't afford the time) and some weeks I now only have one 90 minute class (fortnightly I still have a 4 hr youth ballet company session though, which I will keep doing as long as I can!). Slightly surprisingly I haven't seen a huge drop in my technique, and I'm finding the gym work and hot yoga I am substituting in for the classes is helpful. They're no replacement for a good ballet class, but I'm coping with the lack of ballet much better than I thought.

 

D 

[Moomin]

Sorry I've got to ask, I've seen pictures of 'hot yoga' David & everyone is extremely scantily clad, is that really what happens? I think I'd be in my legging & tshirt & sweating!

It is an interesting argument about quantity versus quality. A lot of places say you need at least 3 classes per week to improve much but I believe i have managed to make considerable progress on 2 per week and a lot of youngsters pass the lower graded on one class a week. I'm sure there must be a ceiling though, I agree with Lin I think I could only give my all to one class a day and retain corrections etc.

When people have said its not a good idea to practice at home, surely that doesn't mean any and all practice? I always try and practice my corrections, slowly mark tricky steps, practice pirouettes, test balance, try and correct posture/ arms in a mirror etc. that was always expected when I was younger doing ballet and tbh I need to do it to get things into my brain these days! Is the point that you should only be consolidating and not trying to learn new things?

[DavidW]

Sorry I've got to ask, I've seen pictures of 'hot yoga' David & everyone is extremely scantily clad, is that really what happens? I think I'd be in my legging & tshirt & sweating!

Don't worry moomin - everyone in my class is respectably dressed! Most of the girls wear a t-shirt or vest top with leggings or shorts of a decent length, and the guys tend to wear vests and shorts. It's definitely worth trying a class out - I didn't realise how intense it would be!

[Michelle_Richer]

Well it looks like the wolves are out.

 

There appears to be a bowl of misinformation brewing, so let have a look at the main points being presented.

 

Balleteacher:

1) “No matter what an adult learner wishes to achieve it is surely about quality rather then quantity”. I am no aware that these are mutually exclusive terms, that is, you are trading one for the other. Conversely is arguable that there needs to be a critical quantity of learning before you can achieve the desired quality, below that level of quantity , quality will suffer.

 

2) As I think I have quoted before, in the words of a wise teacher/ex professional dancer whom I respect, 'practice does not make perfect, it makes permanent'. Whilst I can appreciate what is behind the point, it not quite correct. Firstly it is harder to overlearn an embedded body memory but not impossible. Learning itself is seldom right first time, it done by repeated iterations until the desired response is achieved and of course that requires feedback from self and an observer.

 

 

Picturesinthefirelight

3) “But in these days if being able to learn everything from YouTube videos one wonders about the need for specialist guidance & advice”. I have made this point before on this thread but I will reiterate it again as obviously the situation has been misunderstood. Firstly any new class I attend, I see the teacher and make a pointe that I am positively seeking feedback, as some teachers are reluctant to give it where the dancer has only come for a bit of fun and social contact. From the better classes like ENB I seek homework too, I am very proactive with my teachers.

 

4) As for Video’s, yes I use them and these come in two categories for me (a) Professional Ballet Training DVD’s and Video Dictionaries of Classical Ballet for reference purposes. ( Youtube examples of classical ballet scenes, and extracts from various classical ballet DVD’s for repertoire familiarisation. My intention is to go to repertoire workshop already knowing the full sequence of steps through that scene, my teacher then only needs correct my technique and anything I have missed. If I don’t know the scene, then its a lot of brain power to cram it in a short time, all the effort will be on remembering the steps, let alone being in time with the music, so much will be lost and it will at best be rubbish. I’m not interested in doing a workshop to forget what I have been through, I need it in long term memory so potentially I can develop it for a performance piece.

 

 

Spannerandpony

5) “I would rather see a beautiful line from hip to toe with a lower leg, than line and technique compromised for the sake of leg height.” Again these do not need to be mutually exclusive.

 

LinMM:

6) “Well you just might be able to learn a dance SEQUENCE of steps from YouTube but definitely not the refinement of TECHNIQUE and ARTISTRY which makes watching the true professionals so satisfying”. Probably not, but that will never stop me trying.

 

7) “That takes years of practice and correction and developing a certain feel within the body”. Years of practice I don’t have ahead of me, so I work with what I have now, but at an accelerated pace, hence my classes, as for correction and development of repertoire, as you know I am already seeking a private repertoire coach, if all else fail I still have the option of Rejane from City Academy who I have already approached.

Edited October 3, 2013 by Michelle_Richer

[Thecatsmother]

I guess all I can say is it is difficult to provide constructive advice and feedback unless an individual is receptive to hearing this and integrating the information.

 

I shall move away from this thread as it seems no input is needed and it has become almost a blog about classes.

[Billyelliott]

Perhaps to avoid a member if the public being misled by this blog , the title should changed by the administrators to something like " personal journey of an adult learning ballet "!

Then it may not need so much counter balance by others , and may provoke Michelle less!

[Fiz]

Billyelliott, this was never intended to be any sort of blog. it was intended to be about adult ballet, for all adults. It has become a personal ballet blog for one person who does not seem to like it if anyone else comments on the thread. Perhaps it is time for Michelle to keep her own blog elsewhere?

[Billyelliott]

Well it would seem that that may be better ! As others who are thinking of going back to ballet might be confused , mislead and put off by the arguments that ensue as "Michelles blog "invites unwanted comment and criticism !

[Anna C]

I would advise any adults on the forum who are considering learning Ballet to read this thread: http://www.balletcoforum.com/index.php?/topic/1720-so-you-want-to-learn-to-dance-butuhim-an-adult/

 

Michelle, if I expressed an opinion which several people disagreed with, I like to think I would reconsider my opinion, or go back and re-read my post with an open mind to see why several people disagreed - especially if some of those people were more knowledgeable and more experienced.

 

There is actually nothing wrong with saying "I hadn't thought of it like that, you may be right". The "wolves" are not out just because people disagree with you.

 

I am sometimes critical of the dismissive manner in which you ignore valid points, the occasionally arrogant way in which you dispute good and well intentioned advice from experts (for like it or not, our kind and knowledgeable teachers who take the time to post here ARE experts) and your apparent assumption that you know as much or more about ballet than qualified teachers and ex-professional dancers with years of training behind them.

 

As a fellow forum member, I am entitled to disagree with you and as a Moderator I am entitled to point out if and when your posts come across as disrespectful or rude. This does not mean that "the Wolves are out". It is not a personal attack on you. You - and all our other members - are perfectly welcome to post in this and any other threads you choose.

 

Edited to add that yes, it should be remembered that this is not a blogging site, it is a public forum for *all* members to post, ask questions, express opinions and discuss ballet. :-)

[Sheila Beelam]

And let's remember all the fabulous adult ballet workshops Michelle has highlighted to us on other threads Thank you.

[2dancersmum]

I agree Michelle has provided the forum with a lot of useful information on opportunities for adult learners. I personally enjoy reading the posts of the ballet experiences of all the adult dancers on this thread and especially I think of Michelle, for whom ballet has become a lifestyle choice rather than a hobby to see where her journey leads her. Adult ballet classes are not possible for me at the moment but I like the glimpse into what I might one day be part of.

 

However, this forum is public and it is also a moderated forum and as such it should be remembered by all that Moderators will step in, if it is felt that the thread is straying or needs a more balanced point of view. It is not a personal attack and has happened and does happen on many threads. Why are people "wolves" for offering an opinion? Lets not resort to insulting each other.

[Moomin]

Balleteacher your advice is appreciated and respected by myself and many others please keep contributing. I work in health care, some people will not take advice ever, others will not show it outwardly but it has caused some self reflection. You can only do your best.

 

David I have searched for bikram yoga classes but apparently it hasn't made it out to the sticks yet! Shame as it sounds good, especially on a cold winter day!

[LinMM]

I wish there was a quick way to go back to the first page (couldn't face pressing 35 times to get there) as this thread was already well under way when I joined the forum.

 

I therefore don't know what Fiz wanted when starting it. Perhaps it was an all encompassing any news anyone can give about an adult doing ballet classes and their experiences or perhaps it had originally a more specific purpose about advice on technique etc......but there is another thread on that now anyway and of course Anjuli's thread with loads of advice to newcomers so I think there is room for a just general experiences thread but as I say not sure of original intention.

 

As one of the few people who has actually met Michelle on a couple of occasions now....she's knows I think she is mad with all the classes she does....... but I can say she is very genuine...adamant...but not at all fierce....as may come across on occasions....she has just fallen in love with ballet and I do know how THIS feels!!!

But I do hope she doesn't think I'm a wolf!!!! I was a wolf once in fact in Peter and the Wolf....and I hated it because of the head dress which was very very hot to dance in. I always fancied the part of the delicate little bird but no such luck!!!

[Sheila Beelam]

I have a friend who's launched a bikram studio in Essex this year...highly recommend it!

http://www.bodyblissyoga.co.uk

[alison]

I wish there was a quick way to go back to the first page (couldn't face pressing 35 times to get there) as this thread was already well under way when I joined the forum.

 

 

There is: the "<<" button at the top left of the thread

[Anna C]

Lin, to get back to the first page of a thread, just press the little double arrow (looks like a "rewind" symbol) at the top of the page. It's under the thread title, just to the left of "Prev" and the page numbers. :-)

 

Edited to add: Oops, alison and I were posting at the same time!

[alison]

Actually, if you click on "Page x of 35" or whatever, a "page jump" box opens up which will allow you to jump to any page of the thread you like.

[Anna C]

IIRC, this is actually part 2 of the original thread, which is here: http://www.balletcoforum.com/index.php?/topic/687-going-back-to-ballet/

[LinMM]

Sorry pressed wrong button and post went before I was ready!

 

Anyway I was digressing.

 

I enjoy Michelle's posts even if just to admire such tenacity of purpose and I personally don't worry so much about safety issues for others.....only for Michelle herself! So it is good they are at least pointed out.

My 13 year old self was definitely wiser than my 31 year old self and sometimes even my 62 year old self so I don't think there's that much danger of many 13 year olds copying Michelle's regime! They are more likely tobe influenced by their peers than other adults.

 

However it has got a bit heavy at times. It is as they say "horses for courses" everybodys different....and it would be great to see more people just writing about their experiences here....and of course Michelle too! Will she survive the 500 mile round trip....as we have met I hope she can remember the twinkle in the eye as I say this!!!!

[taxi4ballet]

When Fiz started this thread, she can't have imagined it would run to 35 pages (and counting)!

[LinMM]

Forgot to add Billyelliott like your new avatar and didn't have too much trouble with it all!!

[LinMM]

Thanks Alison and S and P have now looked at original page and have just seen Fiz's 7.54am post today in which she expresses what she wanted the thread to be about!!

 

I guess if more people were prepared to post their experiences on this thread then it wouldn't turn into one persons "blog" (I still have trouble with that word)

 

There is a person who attends the Saturday class I do who has been doing this Bikram Yoga. I know she is keen on it I'll ask her tomorrow what she mostly gets out of it and has it helped with ballet etc. it does sound very energetic but may not be as athletic as Astanga yoga which is the one that keeps moving all the time and may appeal to dancers in fact.

 

However I like my yoga to be calm and open up reflection on what doing more in movements etc. Not sure about hot and sweaty but if it helps with loosening up muscles could be of benefit to dancing.

[alison]

Well, Andy Murray's been doing it for a few years now: doesn't seem to have hurt him

[LinMM]

Have just enjoyed reading the first three pages of the original original thread and is just about people's experiences of going back to ballet after a gap of some sort so fascinating reading of others experiences very similar to mine on first return.

 

Are you on pointe now Fiz or giving it a bit longer.

 

How are some of the original people who posted round about April 2012 getting on now are you all still dancing? Did you have probs with classes continuing(not enough people etc) Anyone taken or thinking of taking any exams? Been in any shows? Has ballet taken over anyone else's life yet? ......you're just adding one more class this year and so on!!

Does anyone else need any encouragement to get started again?

 

Thanks Fiz for starting this thread.....though my partner keeps on telling me to go and do something with dogs or donkeys like I thought I might...now retired...but instead I'm not only hooked on the ballet again but also this forum!!

[DavidW]

How are some of the original people who posted round about April 2012 getting on now are you all still dancing? Did you have probs with classes continuing(not enough people etc) Anyone taken or thinking of taking any exams? Been in any shows? Has ballet taken over anyone else's life yet? ......you're just adding one more class this year and so on!!

Does anyone else need any encouragement to get started again?

I don't know if I was one of the original people in the thread, but I've dipped in over the last year and a bit so thought I'd share how my experiences  have changed.

 

I guess the biggest difference in my dancing life since last April is that I joined a local Russian Youth Ballet Company (they stretched the definition of 'youth' to include me...!). This has completely transformed and pushed my dancing. Since then I've done things I could never have imagined! In class I've had specific male technique training (including grand pirouettes and double tours en l'air!) and I've also learned loads of repertoire with them (including awesome male variations like Don Q and Corsaire). I got to perform in their full length production of Swan Lake as Rothbart (which was the most amazing experience) and more recently performed the Corsaire Pas de Deux Adage at a local charity gala with another member of the YBC (the hardest, but most rewarding ballet piece I've done - and the only video of me performing that I actually enjoyed watching!). 

 

It really is all down to having two amazing teachers - I feel incredibly lucky to have such passionate teachers who are willing to share their knowledge and experience with me (along with the rest of the YBC and ballet school). Whilst I've had to cut down my classes per week, I still know that the time I spend with them is hugely worthwhile and I will keep dancing with them in some way for as long as possible (alas, probably only until the coming summer when I [hopefully!!] graduate).

[Tulip]

Aw that will be the wonderful yuri and chika you are on about David, such lovely people and teachers.

[Billyelliott]

Thanks S&P for the link back to the old thread - it is interesting to see how it started out - what an inspiration !

LinMM -

Once I followed the gravitar instructions I had no trouble at all adding a picture to my profile ! Much better than a white box !

Edited for typos!

Edited October 4, 2013 by Billyelliott

[LinMM]

That sounds wonderful what you are doing DaveW. You must be pretty good too tobe taking on those roles. Is your study dance related or have you just kept up,the dancing because you have studied it as a child?

Performing makes you have a whole lot more respect for it all....that responsibility when there's an audience out there both terrifying and exciting at the same time......and it does tend to bring things out in yourself you didn't realise you had!!

 

Hope you will manage to find time to continue anyway.

[Michelle_Richer]

Wow what a reaction, it seems many of you are fond of giving me feedback but when I give correction back as to deficiencies in your argument, there is no reference to my actual content of the post, but the fact that I have challenged the thinking of the so called experts. I will always challenge and ask why if something doesn’t add up or make proper sense. I was born with a brain and I use it, I never have been passive and I make no apology for that.

 

Billyelliott, this was never intended to be any sort of blog. it was intended to be about adult ballet, for all adults. It has become a personal ballet blog for one person who does not seem to like it if anyone else comments on the thread. Perhaps it is time for Michelle to keep her own blog elsewhere?

But what saddens me most of all, was the post from my friend Fiz. Like LinMM I thought this thread was all about adult ballet including our respective journeys that we shared with each other, but it seem I was wrong. Fiz as you were the instigator of this thread I will respect your wishes and leave, however I do hope we remain friends and I still hope to see you in Lincoln in that new pointe class when and if you move.

 

LinMM No I don’t think you are a “wolf” and we are friends as always, I don’t think you should have told them I wasn’t fierce though, that wont do my street cred any good at all, ha ha ha

 

As far as the rest of my passionate journey is concerned, I will leave that off the forum as the culture of its members are simply not ready for a person with my sense of purpose. I will keep things quite factual as regards new course and workshops. If I have something to contribute on other threads I will simply PM that individual, especially if it something I can help with.

 

Taxi4ballet: your comment “I dare say that's because the teachers think that what adult dancers do before or after class is none of their business. Their public liability insurance is unlikely to cover anything that happens outside the class, and since most of them are probably self-employed then they are getting paid to teach for a certain period of time, and not before or after. They are probably also very used to people ignoring their advice anyway, so don't bother giving it any more.” I guess that type of apathetical attitude is typical of society today, in other word “NOT MY PROBLEM”, thank god I'm not like that. Also I would never support such a post.

[LinMM]

I'm sorry to read this Michelle.

In that case can you PM me about what happens next week with the big trip!! I want to know how this goes!!

 

I do agree though about this rather abysmal idea that ballet teachers are only concerned about their students precisely for the time and in the place they are insured for though!! I certainly never had this attitude ever in 40 years of teaching! Though this was general teaching. Once I was in a relationship with my pupils I was concerned about them in all situations not just the bit of time I was paid for!!

 

I have run many trips to the countryside and to the theatre for children who would never have had this opportunity otherwise. This was completely in my own time and unpaid as such and NOT part of any particular curriculum demands. I did it because I wanted to.

 

In the last 15 years however it has got more difficult for teachers to do this because of all the Health and Safety rules in part and because of a sort of creeping compensation culture on the other which I think in part comes from the above attitude or vice versa!!

 

I know I was working with children and not adults but my attitude would be the same.

[Thecatsmother]

It's not a bad idea Michelle to set up your own blog. That way you can share your passions but in a forum that is perhaps more appropriate for certain aspects of your class endeavours etc. This makes it clear that your training practice is entirely subjective and not something that could place others at risk if they did not have the knowledge needed to understand how to learn in a way which is safe for them.