Going Back to ballet continued...

[Michelle_Richer]

Hi Lin

 

To be fare, If you are not at least at 90 degrees with raising your leg, I don’t think the door thing will work for you just yet. My best raise and hold on the left leg is 4ft 8 and the right leg 4 ft 2. I periodically measure these, but after I have done a workout.

 

After my ballet class this afternoon at Stamford I went and had my hair done, the receptionist who knows I do ballet, said “I bet your cant get you leg up there”, pointing to the top of her counter, which was about bust height on me. So I just said “Like this”, my foot was above the counter and I just lowered it on to it, I just couldn’t resist doing that.

 

 

Stamford class was good again today, our teacher is back after being off ill last week, so we got to do cabriole’s again, we were also taught how to do jete en tournant’s as most of us were doing the turn a bit like a rond de jambe action rather than a scissor action. Of course plenty of pirouettes too, Double Pirouette en dehors worked like a dream on either foot and I’m not sure why, as the left pivoting foot has always eluded me. These started working Thursday night at Peterborough, but it’s a very slipper floor there, and I’ve always been a little bit frighten of it, at first I thought it was a bit of a fluke due to its slippyness, so today was an even bigger surprise on a different floor. I must sort my spotting out with balance, so I can start to think about going for a triple.

 

You say “We weren't learning the solo but just did the turns onto a bent knee with a different beginning and ending”, was that both turns swapping the pivoting leg, if so I'm impressed, I love that piece. Several of the Giselle performers only go to a bent knee, but I like to go all the way down. Before you go into that, do you do the grand pirouette’s, I've changed those, as the other examples are in attitude, I think that looks much nicer, so that’s what I do.

 

Its an early morning start for me at 6.15am for Northern Ballet tomorrow then back home again at 1am Wednesday morning. My last evening class there for a while, it’s the big feasibility run next week with Leeds and London in the same day but only 5 classes and not six as I originally planned, that what I call passion for ballet.

[LinMM]

I don't think it's the 90 that's the issue.....there is just not room in my door frames to extend the leg into a straight position....if you are standing with your back to the frame that is....unless I'm doing something wrong. If I gave the measurement of the width of the frame then this may help!! It would be easier for me to just use a wall!!

[Michelle_Richer]

My doorframe width is 32 inches, just measured it.

[Anna C]

Speaking of using doorframes/doorways/walls to stretch up against, I'm reminded of an excellent piece of advice which has stayed with me since the days of "old" balletco:

 

"I don't like any kind of stretch or "test" in which the body isn't given an "out" - a way of rescuing itself. When the body is asked to do some movement/stretch which is a "test" and at the same time keep bearing one's weight - that compounds the "test." If you add into that mix there is no way for it to save itself - then another iffy variable has been added.

 

For instance - when one works on splits - there is the solid safety of the floor giving stability and "rescue." One can always roll out of the split if necessary (like a muscle popping, etc.). However, some people like to do splits with one leg running up a wall (it sure looks good). The stretch is basically the same - so there's no advantage to it. But - the body is also being asked to stretch into a split, bear weight, and balance. So, the "test" as been compounded. Also, should something happen - like a muscle popping - you are far from "rescue."

 

I always like to give the body a way "out." - Anjuli Bai

 

This has always stayed with me and as a result I have always discouraged dd from doing "no rescue" stretches. I am sure there are professional dancers who do use doorframes to stretch, but when watching Company Class at both RB and ENB I never seen a dancer with her leg up a wall or in a doorway. They stretch using the floor, therabands, and using the barre.

 

Now I know all who post here are adults and you can decide for yourselves how to stretch and whether the risks are worth it.

 

BUT people of all ages read the forum and I would not like to see a competitive thread start about how high legs will go, in case it encourages any younger dancers to start doing "no rescue" stretches.

 

IMHO, stretches should be prescribed to you by a teacher or physio, and - just like prescription medicine - should not be passed on to others. They should have their own prescribed stretches. :-)

[Sheila Beelam]

Thanks for resurrecting this S&P, I remember it well from the old forum - the "escape" route thought has stayed with me too and I always think about it before entering a stretch - wise words from Anjuli

Sx

[LinMM]

Well that settles it I won't be too unhappy to dispense with the doorway stretch....but it was impossible for me anyway!

 

I usually just do stretches on the floor at home as I haven't even a suitable "barre" type height object I can place leg on....they're either too low or too high!

 

At the mo I have some nice yoga work given by that teacher and at the end of that might do a couple of stretches sitting on the floor with legs apart and going over sideways over each leg and a forward bend. I didn't do this last year so have only started to do this recently to encourage a bit more flexibility which I could do with really but not getting injured is my main guide in anything....even yoga...as there are a couple of things I won't do even in gentle scaravelli!!

[LinMM]

Would like to add that one of the things I won't do would be very good for a dancer it's just that it can tend to aggravate a chronic injury I have but if not injured would be excellent for turnout!! I'll ask the name or try to describe what to do.

 

The other things are headstand....even though this hardly ever comes up in my class as it is quite advanced and of course you build up to it gradually but I don't like anything which compresses the neck in any way these days.

 

Also I can't do anything where the wait is taken on a kneeling up leg....well on the right anyway as right knee not too happy about any weight bearing......though do attempt with the support of cushions sometimes. It's a shame as there is a particularly good hamstring stretch going forward on a kneeling up leg which feels good on the left but often miss out the right side.

 

Knees are funny. Mine are quite flexible in many ways but just don't like having any pressure put on them or being pushed on.

 

Doing yoga is quite good though for listening to the body as you have time to see where the tensions are and breathing into stretches little by little is a nice safe way to do them. I do often find in ballet that I don't breathe very well and even am holding breath sometimes!!

But when attention is given to it every so often it does help so perhaps should be a more intrigal part of the teaching at least at the barre!

[Moomin]

I agree with you Lin yoga and pilates are excellent for stretching and different levels are built into the exercises.

I take your point s&p and I'm not disagreeing with you at all but barre stretches are incredibly common and not easy to get out of at all as the shape of the bar requires you to lift the leg to get it off the barre. Added to that you may also be leaning over the 'barre leg'. I feel sorry for the shorter dancers who have to get their leg well over 90 or skip the section!

[Anna C]

Yes, Moomin, my point was about stretches using the doorway or wall. If a dancer has been given a stretch using a barre then that's fine *for that dancer*. What I said I have never seen in Company Class is using the doorway to stretch.

 

I have seen teenage dancers copying each other's stretches which I do not agree with. Once such stretch used the barre but the supporting leg slid away to recreate splits. It would only take one slip of the supporting leg to result in a catastrophic injury.

I have *never* seen a professional dancer do this in class; when they use the barre to stretch, the supporting leg is stable (the only slight movement being a small bend of the supporting leg to increase the stretch).

 

This is what I mean about only doing *your* stretches given to you by *your* teacher or physio.

[LinMM]

The doorways in my house range from 27inches to 29inches.....very small by modern day standards but my bungalow was built in 1960 when everything was smaller garages, kitchens(grrr) and obviously doorways. We need a new sofa and have been wondering how they will get into the lounge.....which has the smallest 27inch measurement!! May have to bring in via the garden and the back door as the door to the kitchen is 29inches.....a bit bigger!!

 

Anyway a bit off topic.....but it does reinforce the idea of not necessarily blindly copying what ANYONE says really.....and having that little safety valve....but can/does this apply/appropriate for me.

 

Sometimes things are the other way round but for the same reason! For example when learning a headstand or shoulder stand in yoga this is often done against the wall first as an extra prop BEFORE going into a full balance....as the balance is one of the key issues in these so practicing with a prop helps but it's the same in a way for a ballet stretch NOT to add another component like a balance as well as I think S and P meant which could compromise the stretch!!

 

Gosh getting a bit knotted up And I thought making one of Jane Ashers cakes or adding a picture to profile was enough to be verging on Einstein levels!!

[LinMM]

I forgot to say earlier that I am very lucky as my yoga teacher is also a qualified physiotherapist!! So between herself and the osteo have got some good exercises.....if only I could keep up to do daily!!

 

Moomin am back to my four classes a week now which is quite nice as mostly get a day off in between.

I'm going to postpone adding the RAD class until after Christmas as have just had a significant break so not a good idea now.

 

This year it's a bit easier as the timing of my Friday class has been changed from 7.30-9.00 to 6.00-7.30 which means get home a bit earlier as its Saturday which is the consecutive day.

However it's been a bit of swings and roundabouts ...as the Saturday class used to be at 1pm and has now been moved to 11am!! So no lie in on Saturday any more!!

[alison]

I feel sorry for the shorter dancers who have to get their leg well over 90 or skip the section!

 

Please also spare a thought for those unfortunates who have to make do with less-than-ideal circumstances, where the barre is fixed too close to the wall so that you can't actually get your ankle on top of it and point your foot in a straight line!  I had to either rest my foot on the barre via the instep, which is unstable and liable to result in the foot/leg slipping off, or flex the foot somewhat.  Not good.

[Michelle_Richer]

At Northern Ballet last night we had twin barre’s, lower and upper, so I guess it caters for all. I’m relatively short 5ft 3in, but I always use the top barre, I even do pie’s with the supporting leg. I think the hardest thing I have done at the barre was to rotate round into arabesque with the back foot on the barre, that really requires good balance especially with nothing to hold on to. That was one of our exercises in the Peterborough class some time ago.

 

I really don’t understand the fixation about safety, safety is your responsibility not your teachers. Generally the teacher in class will only tell you to go as far as you are comfortable with. If you are going to fall, she will not catch you, she can only advise you if it’s apparent that you are doing something that appears unsafe. As for door stretches, they are far more safer than at the barre as you are better supported, but as I said, If you cant get to 90 degrees you wont be able to utilise it. That type of stretch is common in Pineapple using the corridor at the side of the studios which is wider.

 

I had a really wonderful day at Northern Ballet yesterday, the classes were good, I even learnt a new ballet term a “Boolouncie” which is Yorkshire French for balance. After our morning session I got invited out for a coffee again. We met up at the same coffee shop as last week but we had a student quartet playing classical music next to our table, it was really nice. There was myself and four other girls from the class, after coffee some when off to do another creative dance class, sounded like contemporary, leaving me and a Scottish girl. She was fantastic she gave me a conducted tour of Leeds city centre particularly the architecture which she had a thing about, we walked miles and I spent most of the afternoon with her. We finally ended up at a gallery of art and sculptures with a nice coffee shop, so coffee and cake was in order after burning all those calories off walking. After that we parted and I spent a little more time wandering around Leeds killing time till my next class, has a nice Italian meal and headed back to Northern. On the way back I met up with one of girls that did the creative class, she was so full of enthusiasm, she insisted I go there next time I come down for a full day, I don’t think she would take no for an answer. The girls at Northern ballet were really really nice. Similarly when I did the Intermediate / advanced class for the last time, it made me feel really sad, I thanked our pianist and my teacher Fi (for Fiona) and told her I would miss her, I was almost in tears. She knows I’m back at ENB next week but I will be re-joining her class next time I get a break at ENB. I chatted to some of the girls in that class about repertoire at Northern and basically they seldom do any, The girls suggested I raise it with the head of learning, which I have already done.

 

Next week is the endurance trial of my ballet passion with Leeds and London in the same day covering 5 classes and a 500 mile round trip. I’m sure our safety conscious reads will have something to say about that.

[LinMM]

It's not so much safety but stamina......you must have buckets of it!! Ive just taken in that this is in ONE day.....not a week as I originally thought! Have I got this wrong.....but are you going up to Leeds in the morning and then down to London in the afternoon and then back to Grantham again?!

 

Your Northern Ballet class seems really nice.

 

The teacher of the wed Russian class wants to change the class to Tuesdays in November. Luckily I can still do it as Tuesday at the mo is a day off!! Guess now it will be Wednesdays. But I preferred the previous balance....a class then a day off...etc now I'llhave two classes on consecutive days in a week with a two day break in the middle.

 

Also my Friday yoga class in Lewes which starts again next week has changed times as well!! It used to be at 10am so nice long gap between it and the ballet class in Brighton....but now that has been moved to 2.30!!! So guess I'll just have to use the yoga to warm up for the ballet now!

I might just be able to fit a hot chocolate in between

[Michelle_Richer]

Next Tuesdays run is, Leave home at 6.15 AM for Peterborough Station Train to Leeds, Two classes at Northern Ballet, Train from Leeds to London, Class at Danceworks, then across town for my two classes at ENB, Train back to Peterborough and car home arrive home about 12.50AM.

 

Next class 10.30am Body balance at Spalding.

 

 

Teacher ill tonight, so no pointe class.

Edited October 2, 2013 by Michelle_Richer

[Anna C]

I'm "fixated" about safety Michelle because as I have said numerous times before, people of all ages read this forum and I would not like to think that we were encouraging people to start trying "no rescue" stretches which could lead to serious injury.

[LinMM]

I just couldn't do that Michelle. Even though I love travelling on trains (or anything else) it's just a lot for one day and so many classes!!

I would definitely need to spend the whole of the next day in bed to recover!!

 

You have retained the energy and stamina of a twenty year old....when I probably could have envisaged a mad caper like this !!!!

[Michelle_Richer]

Hi Spannerandpony

I depends what you mean by “no rescue”, any barre stretch could be seen as "no rescue" if you were to loose balance and fall over, especially the one I described in arabesque. I think all barre stretches should be considered as advanced stretches. In fact one of the girls at Northern Ballet fell over social dancing and badly bruised her hip, she was out of action for 3 or 4 weeks, alternatively she could have broken it, where do you draw the line

 

I also acknowledge stretches should not be done when cold, but that is still common place and teachers do not advise against it, which I do find disappointing. I personally don’t stretch cold, I learnt my lesson when I dropped down into spits cold at ENB and it hit my muscles hard, that was no joke, thank goodness I didn’t do any damage that time.

[Thecatsmother]

Most of the thinking I have heard from dance physio's, in particular, Lisa Howell is that stretching is best done at the end of class as it can cause a decrease in muscle power during class.

[LinMM]

Actually may be increasing my stamina levels soon hopefully(though not to your levels Michelle) as Ive just ordered the Dancers Nutrition book from JustBallet!!

 

I'm sure it will give some good diet tips that will help keep the old bones and muscles healthy(maybe even the brain too) and keep the evening slump at bay for another hour or so!!

[Michelle_Richer]

Lin Perhaps you will summarise you findings on the other thread, I will report back on that one too, I'm reading Diet for Dancers plus I've had info back from a couple of supplement companies, I have other books that I must research too, Something I can do during my train journeys.

 

 

Hi Balleteacher

 

I don't disagree with what you are saying, but our advanced teacher at Northern Ballet, not only stretches after barre work but after many of the individual centre exercises too. We seem to be doing a lot of stretching in that class, but its always targeted to specific areas. and of course at the end of class.

[Jan McNulty]

I'm "fixated" about safety Michelle because as I have said numerous times before, people of all ages read this forum and I would not like to think that we were encouraging people to start trying "no rescue" stretches which could lead to serious injury.

 

Well said Spanner!

 

Hi Balleteacher

 

I don't disagree with what you are saying, but our advanced teacher at Northern Ballet, not only stretches after barre work but after many of the individual centre exercises too. We seem to be doing a lot of stretching in that class, but its always targeted to specific areas. and of course at the end of class.

 

I would assume Michelle that although stretches were conducted during the class they were done when the attendees were warmed up.

 

 

Health and Safety is an important issue and should not be ignored.  I would assume that most of the adult dancers on this board dance for fun and to maintain some degree of fitness and flexibility.  It's not just about pushing yourself to extremes and potentially encouraging other people to do the same, possibly to the point of injuring themselves.

 

Hi Spannerandpony

I depends what you mean by “no rescue”, any barre stretch could be seen as "no rescue" if you were to loose balance and fall over, especially the one I described in arabesque. I think all barre stretches should be considered as advanced stretches. In fact one of the girls at Northern Ballet fell over social dancing and badly bruised her hip, she was out of action for 3 or 4 weeks, alternatively she could have broken it, where do you draw the line

 

I also acknowledge stretches should not be done when cold, but that is still common place and teachers do not advise against it, which I do find disappointing. I personally don’t stretch cold, I learnt my lesson when I dropped down into spits cold at ENB and it hit my muscles hard, that was no joke, thank goodness I didn’t do any damage that time.

 

Accidents are always going to happen but it is surely sensible to take all the precautions you can to avert them.

[Michelle_Richer]

Hi Janet

 

If the stretches are done after barre work you must have warmed up. But this class like only a very few of my classes do have a proper warm-up session pre-barre, but the vast majority don’t including ENB.

 

However like many of the higher classes, there is a large element of cold, possibly competitive stretching before the class starts. I have never seen a teacher intervene even to give advice to a class generally on this subject. I guess it’s become part of that culture, and as I said I don’t cold stretch.

 

I have never seriously suggested others follow my aggressive strategy of gaining ballet experience, that is for me and it works for me, that’s my lifestyle choice. Most are happy to just go to class for fun and social contact as well as you say “fitness and flexibly”. I go the extra mile because I want more and intend to get it.

 

You say “Accidents are always going to happen but it is surely sensible to take all the precautions you can to avert them”.

I would change the wording slightly from “take all the precautions”, to “reasonable precautions”, as all can only be satisfied by stop dancing, a point I have often made on this thread.

[Thecatsmother]

No matter what an adult learner wishes to achieve it is surely about quality rather then quantity. It takes time for an adult or indeed any dancer to be able to correct themselves. I think enjoyment and safety should always come at the top of the hierarchy of essential aspects of class but perhaps it is also worth considering different ways in which adults can review their progress. Self report may not be the most accurate form of assessment and should be used in conjunction with feedback from teachers. For example, being able to get your leg higher may not be a sign of progress if other aspects of technique are compromised in order to achieve this. I guess what I am saying is sometimes less is more. As I think I have quoted before, in the words of a wise teacher/ex professional dancer whom I respect, 'practice does not make perfect, it makes permanent'. I think this encapsulates my point(e)????

[2dancersmum]

I think Michelle you will find that Spanner did explain what she meant by "no rescue" stretches in post 994 and she was making a very valid point.  You are an individual and free to make your own individual choices for what works best for you, your body and your circumstances but it comes across as quite arrogant to dismiss the views on health and safety aspects from those who have years more experience than yourself.  Your views and mine might come across harsher in writing than if the discussion on this thread was taking place face to face and I apologise if I have judged you wrong but I urge you to remember that other people's views are just as valid as your own and I for one do not like seeing little digs at other people like "I'm sure our safety conscious reads will have something to say about that."  I have seen no comments on here criticising your passion for ballet or your lifestyle choices.

[taxi4ballet]

 

However like many of the higher classes, there is a large element of cold, possibly competitive stretching before the class starts. I have never seen a teacher intervene even to give advice to a class generally on this subject. I guess it’s become part of that culture, and as I said I don’t cold stretch.

 

 

I dare say that's because the teachers think that what adult dancers do before or after class is none of their business. Their public liability insurance is unlikely to cover anything that happens outside the class, and since most of them are probably self-employed then they are getting paid to teach for a certain period of time, and not before or after. They are probably also very used to people ignoring their advice anyway, so don't bother giving it any more.

[Anna C]

I think Michelle you will find that Spanner did explain what she meant by "no rescue" stretches in post 994 and she was making a very valid point.  You are an individual and free to make your own individual choices for what works best for you, your body and your circumstances but it comes across as quite arrogant to dismiss the views on health and safety aspects from those who have years more experience than yourself.  Your views and mine might come across harsher in writing than if the discussion on this thread was taking place face to face and I apologise if I have judged you wrong but I urge you to remember that other people's views are just as valid as your own and I for one do not like seeing little digs at other people like "I'm sure our safety conscious reads will have something to say about that."  I have seen no comments on here criticising your passion for ballet or your lifestyle choices.

Thank you, 2dancersmum. :-)

[Anna C]

No matter what an adult learner wishes to achieve it is surely about quality rather then quantity. It takes time for an adult or indeed any dancer to be able to correct themselves. I think enjoyment and safety should always come at the top of the hierarchy of essential aspects of class but perhaps it is also worth considering different ways in which adults can review their progress. Self report may not be the most accurate form of assessment and should be used in conjunction with feedback from teachers. For example, being able to get your leg higher may not be a sign of progress if other aspects of technique are compromised in order to achieve this. I guess what I am saying is sometimes less is more. As I think I have quoted before, in the words of a wise teacher/ex professional dancer whom I respect, 'practice does not make perfect, it makes permanent'. I think this encapsulates my point(e)

So true. I would rather see a beautiful line from hip to toe with a lower leg, than line and technique compromised for the sake of leg height.

[Picturesinthefirelight]

Dd says that her old teacher often corrected the more flexible children who compromised their technique in order to get higher

 

But in these days if being able to learn everything from YouTube videos one wonders about the need for specialist guidance & advice

[Fiz]

My plies, tendues, pirouettes, extensions, battements -everything, in fact - have greatly improved over the last year. I can see the difference and so can my teacher. I do not practice at home or have more than one class a week. What I do have is time, patience, good technique and an excellent teacher. I am under no illusions about what I can achieve this late in my life and am happy with that. After all, none of us are capable of being a prima ballerina now! :-D

[LinMM]

Well you just might be able to learn a dance SEQUENCE of steps from YouTube but definitely not the refinement of TECHNIQUE and ARTISTRY which makes watching the true professionals so satisfying.

 

That takes years of practice and correction and developing a certain feel within the body.

[LinMM]

Too true and if only.....Fiz!!

[Picturesinthefirelight]

Exactly