Going Back to ballet continued...

[LinMM]

Sometimes a difficulty picking up the steps is because the level you are dancing at is actually really above your ability. Particularly if this is a frequent occurrence. We can all have those days when nothing seems to sink in but you shouldn't be struggling all the time!

If someone was doing classes at several different levels they should be able to identify the classes they are less likely to have a problem remembering the steps in......and this will be the level they are actually at so to speak.

So for arguments sake if for example if you were trying BBO levels and you've were fine in grade 3, just about making it through grade 4 but really beginning to struggle in grade 5 in getting any steps together then I would say you are working towards grade 4 level so probably need to stay in the grade 3 to really work at perfecting technique and the grade 4 as the "challenge" to picking up new material.......Leave the grade 5 for another year!! I am sure the same sort of thing would apply to ENB levels or other graded adult open classes. Most well run BBO/RAD adult classes wouldn't encourage you to attend a level which is really too difficult for you as indeed as our local one doesn't.

Most people are between levels......or should I say most adult learners are between two levels. Most are not between THREE levels!!

 

This however refers to regular everyday working classes. It is okay OCCASONALLY to challenge yourself at a higher level in workshops etc. Recently I attended a City Academy workshop but was careful to check what the level was and it did say beginners to more advanced.......so quite a range!! I was surprised that it worked but it sort of did....however you would have to ask the ones who were in the first year of ballet whether they enjoyed it or not and would do another.........they certainly seemed to be enjoying it!!

 

I am sort of hoping to attend the LAB workshop Easter Intensive and have not done an LAB one before perhaps this is at a higher level?? Could a comparative beginner cope with LAB??

Certainly for me if a workshop said it was aimed at Advanced plus I wouldn't do it because although I might be able to cope with bits of it

I don't think it would be that satisfying. I don't mind a bit of a challenge but not a "God why am I putting myself through this" one!

 

So should there be such a thing as Amateur Ballet.....especially performing it and doing parts of the Classical Repertoire. What do others think?

[Thecatsmother]

I guess my question would be where do we draw the line in terms of adults dancing safely for exercise and enjoyment. For me there is a missing component in the adult ballet debate which is the motives of the teacher.

 

I am not really talking about adult classes in general but more the move to putting adults on pointe and even teaching pas de deux workshops. Am I saying it is unsafe in all cases, probably not, but there needs to be a careful assessment on a case by case basis. One could argue that adults attend at their own risk but I for one feel I have a duty as a teacher to not place students in a situation where I feel they are at greater risk of injury due to obvious factors.

 

Am I being over cautious? Some may say yes but surely there could be a more stringent way of taking adults onto workshops that could reduce the risk such as an introductory class?

 

I love watching ice skating and have often wondered what it would feel like to really learn to skate. If I had a lifelong yearning to try a triple axel, would an ice skating teacher be willing to help me pursue my dream? I would hope not but for me the analogy raises some key points which are worthy of discussion. When do teachers know they have crossed the line and how can this be assessed in order that adults can continue to enjoy ballet but not at expense of their own well-being.

[LinMM]

I think the ice skating analogy is a good one because there the risks are more obvious to see! No one usually launches themselves into the middle of the rink(well maybe some 12 year old boys!) with no training or lessons!! You normally cling to the edge like mad and hope it gets better after a few lessons......talking from some very little experience of my own!!

 

So I think it's right to be cautious.....especially where pointe work is concerned.

 

However workshops don't have to include pointe work but for the satisfaction of some who are good on pointe then perhaps some workshops should be aimed at those who have done at least two years on pointe so it's safe to work in the centre.

 

However here is where Anjuli's suggestion of some courses may be a bit of a "money spinner" because perhaps not so many would turn up at these courses so easier to have a one size fits all approach I assume.

[Moomin]

Why does there need to be a distinction between adults and young people being put on pointe though? I agree with your argument but think it applies equally to younger dancers. Post menopausally you may begin to worry a little more about fracture risk but apart from that is there much difference?

[LinMM]

No Moomin I don't think so. It's worse in fact for younger people because of their feet not being fully formed.

 

Much older people can usually censure themselves......too much pain then lets refrain!!

[Fiz]

Deep breath and a confession. My teacher, when I asked her about pointe, said that it was not advisable. She was really upset when I asked about it. She said that muscles start to atrophy and weaken once you hit fifty and she did not want to be responsible for causing worse damage to my feet after an accident I had in my forties.She only has my best interests at heart and she hated telling me, I could see it on her face. Oh well, it isn't what ballet is all about. I am sad, though.

[LinMM]

On the whole muscles only start to atrophy from lack of use and I would say am a prime example of someone who has regained considerable muscle power from going back to ballet and I am a month short of my 66th birthday!!

 

However injuries are another matter. Obviously I don't know the nature of your injury but presumably your teacher does so this may have been more of a concern than your actual age.

 

I have to say sounds like your teacher is well under 50 but could be wrong!!!!

[Fiz]

I tore all the tendons in my feet, Lin. Yes, I would say N is under twenty five.

[Anna C]

Oh what a shame, Fiz. :-(

 

Could you wear soft blocks for class? At least they look just like pointe shoes. :-)

[Fiz]

I don't see the need, Spanner. If I can't do it for real, I'm not going to fake it.

[Anna C]

Fair point(e) :-)

[Moomin]

Oh no Fiz, are you very dissapointed? If it is very important to you then you could get a second opinion from a physio? I am not saying your teacher is wrong, your injury may make it impossible but surely your muscle strength can be objectively assessed so I don't fully understand that argument.

[Fiz]

Yes, I am.

[Moomin]

Bless you fiz. I would be terribly dissapointed too. Perhaps when you are better and are managing to get to classes regularly it would be worth revisiting. I don't believe in judging things purely on age, look at this chap for a start! http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-21564489

[Fiz]

I think part of it might be that if I was put en pointe it would cause problems in the class. K hasn't enough basic classes yet. M has medical problems which I don't think would make her suitable to do it, and the other others have only just started back after a long gap.

[LinMM]

Well beginning pointe work will mostly be at the barre.

 

Have you been having any trouble with your foot in the usual ballet class?

 

If not you could only try and if it gives you too much of a problem then maybe have to admit defeat. I do hope you do have a go as you are so keen to. Make it one for the oldies Fiz!!

 

But honestly with all respect to your teacher don't worry too much about the muscle tone thing!! Yes our muscles may not be as we were when 20 something but still fully functioning enough to do ballet!! I think some very young people just can't get their head around 50 plus it seems ancient to them!! No doubt your teacher will still be dancing when she is 50!! It comes around sooner than you may like!!

 

I saw a letter in a newspaper a few months ago (obviously written by a 20 plus year old) saying quite categorically that they thought anyone over 70 should not be allowed to drive as it was too old!!! Oh well only another four years for me then!

[Fiz]

I can't do it if she won't teach me, Lin. We'll see what happens when we move. It isn't the be-all and end-all, though.

[LinMM]

Yes I agree about that.

 

I personally don't want to do pointe work any more and don't mind a bit. But have done in the past. Did you do pointe work before Fiz?

[Sheila Beelam]

Fingers crossed you manage to get to try pointe work Fiz, maybe soft blocks could serve to strengthen your feet in preparation for pointe work? If the pointe work doesn't materialise, you'll be stronger, so nothing lost!?

Sx

[Fiz]

No, I only did ballet for three years as a child, Lin. I started late as my family were not interested in the idea of me doing ballet.

[Michelle_Richer]

Balleteacher Ref Post 1122

 

You don’t think I could let that post go without a comment do you? Whilst I don’t in principle disagree with what you are saying. I do believe in reality it’s an over simplification. How well a student dancer learns a combination is not just down to there ability to remember but also by the way it’s presented and made memorable by the teacher. A student dancer’s confidence is another aspect, perhaps that why some prefer to have someone to follow and of course as LinMM implied in post 1123“It can just be that one had a bad day”. If the class selection is a total miss match then a student dancer is not likely to enjoy it and is likely to leave.

What we shouldn’t be doing is creating a culture where someone finds the odd combination difficult, making them feel inadequate thus destroying there confidence and forcing them to leave either by pressure from the teacher or peer pressure from other dancers. Those situations are quite different.

It should also be remembered that the vast majority of adult classes do cater for a wide range of abilities and graded classes are not that common unless you’re in a big city like London.

 

I would also make the point that where dancers only attend one or two classes a week, they get to know those teachers styles and combinations very well, as each teacher will have her favourites and the way she assembles them. That in itself will limit the range of a student ability to cope with unfamiliar steps and combinations created by other schools.

As for me, if I’m not being challenged in some way, then I feel I’m definitely not working hard enough. That’s why I attend so many classes, both with and without a grading structure. If I do find something particularly difficult or challenging, I take it on board for homework and work it through until it becomes strength rather than a weakness, I certainly don’t give up and say I can’t do it, I had better go down a grade. I’m not one for living in a comfort zone either.

However with ENB I do attend both Level 2 and Level 3, those are MY CHOICE, level 2 which is extremely easy, which underpins level 3 and level 3 is quite comfortable but occasionally I may get challenged by remembering to odd combination. Level 4(advanced) I will try the taster early next year as I intend to do another term in January of levels 2 and 3. When I move to 4 then I will carry on with level 3 to underpin it, that my strategy and it makes very logical sense to me. One of the nicest classes I went too was Northern Ballet’s Intermediate/Advanced class, however I only got to do two classes there before it was time to return back to ENB, with out a doubt it’s the teacher that makes the class and she was a really fantastic teacher, really easy to learn from.

 

LinMM

I note your comment in Post 1113 ref “Odette's white or black swan solo”, don’t forget you will be dancing “Odette’s (White) solo from Act 2”, as I ask Rejane to include it; it’s in both options now, with and without male dancer at the workshop. Even I wont attempt the Black Swan variation just yet. Need to get my turns sorted first.

 

I'm interested, at what sort of level are travelling turns around the room are taught. I need these for Giselle's first variation, whilst I can now both spot and navigate the appropriate circumference with music set at half speed for Giselle, and go at full speed with music down the diagonal, I cannot do both (YET).

 

As for LAB Spring Intensive, Tom only teaches for one standard which is different to that of City. I personally really like Toms style, I learn a lot from him, he is one of my best teachers. I know we are doing a corpe de ballet piece from Sleeping Beauty but not what scene, as Tom has not decided. The style is not unlike that we did at Chelsea Ballet with Pilates, general class (Barre and Centre) and pointe work for those that are experiences on point (No beginners), those that are not on point (majority) do the same class on demi. Only half of the schedule each day is spent on rep and rehearsal.

During the last LAB SI show, all Swan Lake that we did, everyone was on demi, it was only a short enchainement in the middle of the show that was a mixture of en pointe and demi, dancing together.

 

Fiz

Are you still going to Lincoln, if so do you have a date?, as we need a minimum of four to get the Lincoln pointe class off the ground, otherwise I will chip in for two to make it happen. The Angles Theatre pointe class is another tiny one, its been cancelled a couple of times but its still going, we are purely concentrating on foot strengthening at this stage, although one girl has some experience en pointe.

[LinMM]

I must say I don't think the white swan solo from act two is that suitable for people in their first year of ballet!! Or certainly not without it being heavily adapted.

 

I know the teacher from City did ask for suggestions for what we might want to learn for future workshops (not necessarily this coming Swan Lake one) I think that the suggestions should be monitored as to whether they will be suitable for the people attending the course!

 

There are lots of dances from Swan Lake that would probably be more easily adapted for the less experienced and personally I'm not that fussed about learning the main solo. So I won't be disappointed if we don't!! The Spanish dance is nice too!!

I thought it was originally waltz of the swans we were learning as the main piece anyway.

[Jan McNulty]

Not that it has got anything to do with the price of fish but I love the Spanish Dance from Sir Peter Wright's production for BRB!

[Thecatsmother]

Well maybe it's time to give it a try Janet...

[Fiz]

Yes, Michelle,but there's no date set. Our solicitors or our seller's solicitors are really dragging their feet. I am hoping K will be of a different opinion from N. If we have moved by January - and I think we must have - I would certainly like her to assess me for possible pointe classes.

[mimi66]

I must say I don't think the white swan solo from act two is that suitable for people in their first year of ballet!! Or certainly not without it being heavily adapted.

 

[...]

 

There are lots of dances from Swan Lake that would probably be more easily adapted for the less experienced and personally I'm not that fussed about learning the main solo. So I won't be disappointed if we don't!! The Spanish dance is nice too!!

I thought it was originally waltz of the swans we were learning as the main piece anyway.

 

I love the Spanish dance, too! 

 

As for pointes for adults - I agree with everyone that it must be assessed case by case.  Past pointes experience (as a child - teenager ) I think weighs a lot in that assessment.  Fiz I am sure your teacher is talking about your current state of fittness only.

 

I wonder, though, isn't this "age group" thing used as a matter of speach by ballet teachers?  It would sound softer than "No, your are not yet good enough etc" - at least it sounds less personal.

[mimi66]

Found this lovely video of Ulyana Lopatkina being coached by Ninel Kurgapkina, reharsing bits from Paquita's variation 5.

 

Thought what a lovely example of the fact we already do bits and pieces of classical repertoirs (Ok. heavily adopted and not on pointe, but, hey) in everyday classes already.  Soutenue, pique en dedans,  then chaine.  Pre-elementary (now intermediate?) level, I would say beginner +, in so far as the pas used in the choreograph is concerned.

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSfxk2-jfFU

 

It's so lovely to watch reharsal video....

 

Edited to add that and it's lovely to see the teacher-student relationship from ballet school often carries on, even after the student in question becomes almost a legendary ballerina.

Edited October 28, 2013 by mimi66

[DavidW]

Not that it has got anything to do with the price of fish but I love the Spanish Dance from Sir Peter Wright's production for BRB!

 

I love the Spanish dance, too! 

 

 

I can add that the Spanish Dance in Swan Lake is so much fun to dance! It's a little tricky in parts to stay on top of the music (it can run away with you if you're not careful!) but I think it's a great piece to learn, and easily adaptable to many levels.

[Michelle_Richer]

Hi LinMM

 

This is the last info I got from City Academy: Waltz of the Swans, Odette's solo and Pas de Quatre (Cygnet Dance). If they have a male participant the schedule may change to Odette and Prince Siegfried 1st encounter scene, Odette's solo and coda with Corps de ballet. Don’t forget there will be a friend and family performance at the end. Odette solo has an easy and harder option, the harder one is a little bit simplified as I’m learning the full on version, but never the less will have to dance what City come up with on the day. I spoke to Tony last Tuesday at ENB, he is still unsure if he's going, but I will keep you posted on that.

 

One class done already today, two more to go.

 

Wednesday I’m doing a rep workshop on Le Corsaire with ENB at Oxford, I don’t know what scenes were dancing so I’m going in cold on that one.

 

I hope we do Waltz of the Swans too, I did that with LAB, I didn’t get a choice there, I was at the front facing the audience, on right hand side, we were three columns of eight girls, needless to say I had no one to follow, that was awesome and I was also way outside my comfort zone. I know I could have done a lot better, but I wouldn’t swap that experience for the work.

[LinMM]

Hi Michelle I haven't had any info from City Adademy apart from my booking confirmation etc.

 

On the website it's a bit vague just that its Act 2 though I know she mentioned the waltz and cygnets as probables.

 

It will certainly be interesting to see how the solo is adapted if we do it.

 

Sometimes it's making the adaptation look reasonable......some steps just don't suit adaptation without losing their quality which is why doing some MAIN solos.....as from Swan Lake can be difficult.......even adapted one doesn't want it to look like a comedy routine if you get my meaning!!

 

I love doing character dances as well which is why the Spanish or Neopolitan dances(still not that easy)...but far less exposing I think are more suitable to less than Advanced level students.

 

Anyway I'm sure it's going to be a very good day whatever.

No family or friends for me by the way! Though having said that one of my friends who used to do a lot of ballet has expressed an interest but not to see me!! She knows I wont be as good as when she last saw me dance over twenty years ago!!! She would however quite like to see inside the Royal Ballet School!! Actually do we have to tell City if anyone is coming!!

[LinMM]

 

Here is another dance from Swan Lake which would also be brilliant to do The Russian Dance. Again much easier to adapt and make look good than the main solo!!

[Michelle_Richer]

Hi Lin

 

I have the info from City because I talk to them, I'm very proactive with all these schools including RAD. Needless to say I'm in dialog with Northern Ballet and Scottish too, for me I will travel anywhere for the right Rep workshop.

 

Essentially the bits that have been simplified in Odette's solo are:

 

After the three Hi extension developee's (reduced extension for us), there is a glissard into an arabesque in attitude, we use the same arm positions but the foot remains on the ground. The grand pirouettes are replaced with a pivot turn with the gesturing leg at cou-de-pied. Otherwise its more or less as per RB. 

 

I'm afraid I cannot get very exited over the Russian dance, I cant say I can recall that as part of Swan Lake, one of my favourite's that I have ear marked is the RB version of the First Variation from Act 1, I did get my Stamford teacher to add in the Sissonne / temps de fleche combination to our centre practice on week, it didn't go down well with the rest of the girls. I was accused of working for Bolshoi. That school is a very forward looking school and I love it.

[Fiz]

I think it looks fun to do, Lin. :)The chance to do it would be a fine thing for me.