Appraisals

[rachaelballet12]

Thank you to everyone with there congratulations for my DD hope other dancers who have gone through there apprasil get news soon .

[Spax]

I sympathise with the instinct to name and shame, especially when a school or teacher is very critical of a student's physique. However, I would issue a gentle reminder that in accordance with the AUP, "highly critical comments" must be made under a member's real name, not a pseudonym. This could inadvertently "out" and identify a student, which may not be wise in the long term.

 

As a parent I would possibly complain to the school in that situation but that is not the same as "naming and shaming" under your own name on a very public forum.

I hope you don't think I am naming and shaming Elmhurst. They rarely assess out.  

Highly recommended school for this.

[Stirrups36]

Hi Spax - I think you'll find that Elmhurst do assess out. It is not rare at all.

[Spax]

Hi Spax - I think you'll find that Elmhurst do assess out. It is not rare at all.

Really?

How many was assessed out this year 11 - 16 years olds?

I really need to stop taking what people say as the truth:(

[sarahw]

Dramascientist

 

I would be mad as well..... Have a good scream and shout. .......

 

Your dd is clearly a fab dancer from the other comments made which is a plus point to concentrate on..... She also seems to be strong and sensible enough to see the build comment for what it is- our dc are judged against 'freaks' in terms of build not 'normal'. (My dd is currently a freak so I can say that but it may/will change. )

 

Enjoy BW....

[Anna C]

No Spax, my post wasn't aimed at you. :-)

[Guest Autumn days]

This will be controversial but not critical because it is based on my interpretation of the facts! Classical dancers have too be thin/slim/skinny/petite - however you want to describe it - these days. It may not be right and we may not like it or agree with it but that is how it is. There will always be exceptions but this is a general rule and my personal view is that some things just have to be accepted. Why then, is it such an issue when students are told that they do not have the required physique? Is it any different to not having the requires technique or being too tall or too short or not flexible enough? If it is a valid reason for not being selected then surely it is better to be told the truth? As has been said, it doesn't mean that a student cannot dance! I agree that one needs to be sympathetic when dealing which such issues but not that they should be swept under the carpet. My dd is thin and did not get a 6th form place this year. I don't know why but would feel better if I did - whatever the reason! 

[Tulip]

No you are not wrong mum in a spin . However there are crucial points in a girls development when they will fill out and eventually take on their real shape. Usually 14, 15 and 16 are the ages for these changes. Girls have to put on fat to go through puberty, they cannot stay little girls for ever. My daughter was tiny pre puberty, then she put on some weight as she hit puberty, at 17 she is tiny infact a size. 6. Classical dancers do have to be the right shape and size , but schools must allow our teenagers to go through puberty in a healthy way, not make our girls hate their beautiful bodies.

[Spax]

No Spax, my post wasn't aimed at you. :-)

Thank you :-)

[All4dancers]

Classical dancers have too be thin/slim/skinny/petite - however you want to describe it - these days. It may not be right and we may not like it or agree with it but that is how it is. There will always be exceptions but this is a general rule and my personal view is that some things just have to be accepted. Why then, is it such an issue when students are told that they do not have the required physique? Is it any different to not having the requires technique or being too tall or too short or not flexible enough? If it is a valid reason for not being selected then surely it is better to be told the truth? As has been said, it doesn't mean that a student cannot dance! I agree that one needs to be sympathetic when dealing which such issues but not that they should be swept under the carpet. My dd is thin and did not get a 6th form place this year. I don't know why but would feel better if I did - whatever the reason!

Can't agree with this because your words imply that it is necessary to be very thin to be a classical dancer, whereas it is merely the fashion; the desire of most artistic directors. Unless this stereotype is challenged rather than accepted as you suggest, then things will never change. Thank goodness for dancers such as Misty Copeland is what I say. Personally it is how a person dances that I appreciate, not how thin/short/tall they may be.

[Karen]

I hope your daughter is very happy in her new school, Dramascientist. What any individual teacher or principal likes or wants to see in the physique of a dancer is so subjective, but I do feel that if a performance has moved an observer to tears, they make themselves look quite foolish if they then tell the performer there is something not right with their physique.

[Fiz]

Both of my daughters were tiny in their teens, just like Primrose's beautiful dd. There were times when they both told me they were fat. Luckily no teacher ever told them that they were. If they had, I dread to think the effect it would have had on their self esteem and their eating habits! I understand perfectly well that dancers need to be slim but Dramascientist says her dd is slightly underweight. It is insane for a teacher to tell her that she is overweight!

[Guest Autumn days]

Classical dancers have too be thin/slim/skinny/petite - however you want to describe it - these days. It may not be right and we may not like it or agree with it but that is how it is. There will always be exceptions but this is a general rule and my personal view is that some things just have to be accepted. Why then, is it such an issue when students are told that they do not have the required physique? Is it any different to not having the requires technique or being too tall or too short or not flexible enough? If it is a valid reason for not being selected then surely it is better to be told the truth? As has been said, it doesn't mean that a student cannot dance! I agree that one needs to be sympathetic when dealing which such issues but not that they should be swept under the carpet. My dd is thin and did not get a 6th form place this year. I don't know why but would feel better if I did - whatever the reason!

Can't agree with this because your words imply that it is necessary to be very thin to be a classical dancer, whereas it is merely the fashion; the desire of most artistic directors. Unless this stereotype is challenged rather than accepted as you suggest, then things will never change. Thank goodness for dancers such as Misty Copeland is what I say. Personally it is how a person dances that I appreciate, not how thin/short/tall they may be.

 

 

 

My use of the words "these days" relate to the fact that it is, indeed, a current trend.

 

How can we challenge it in the context of the offer of a school place? If a student is not offered a place because of their physique what can they do?

 

Edited to leave a bigger gap as the quote function doesn't seem cto be working properly!

Edited May 10, 2014 by mum in a spin

[Guest Autumn days]

No you are not wrong mum in a spin . However there are crucial points in a girls development when they will fill out and eventually take on their real shape. Usually 14, 15 and 16 are the ages for these changes. Girls have to put on fat to go through puberty, they cannot stay little girls for ever. My daughter was tiny pre puberty, then she put on some weight as she hit puberty, at 17 she is tiny infact a size. 6. Classical dancers do have to be the right shape and size , but schools must allow our teenagers to go through puberty in a healthy way, not make our girls hate their beautiful bodies.

 

I agree wholeheartedly that this is he ideal but is it better to be told, truthfully at, say 16, that the physique is wrong or go through 3 more years training with no hope of a job?

[Stirrups36]

Students have been assessed out every year my son has been there. I don't have numbers. It happens. It isn't rare otherwise the stresses written about on the forum in a number of threads over the years would not happen.

 

We do know that at year 10 there is no assessing out as that would be unfair during GCSE years. But definitely year 9 and 11.

[aileen]

No teacher should ever tell a child or student that s/he is (too) fat. I suspect that this is one of the reasons that schools in the UK do not give reasons for assessing out as the question of whether a student is the 'wrong' shape or size is an emotive one. I think that one has to be realistic. The ballet aesthetic is not only slim in the sense of little body fat but fine-boned. Women, in the UK at least, are getting taller, broader and fatter and ballet dancers really are exceptional in build compared to the general population. Even ballet dancers who are not regarded as thin are tiny. The other thing that I notice is that very few have any kind of bust at all. You have to be pretty flat chested to wear those thin leotards which are worn for some Balanchine ballets and a lot of more contemporary work. I have a bit of an issue with this. Why are so many ballet costumes designed for barely pubescent girls rather than fully grown women?.

[Pas de Quatre]

Well said Tulip.  There are indeed certain stages of development when a girl's body will fill out.  She may later regain a slender shape or may stay more naturally robust.  What really annoys me over the whole assessing out syndrome is how short term the vision is.  Experienced teachers at top schools should be aware of the natural rhythm of female development.  (Boys have their own problems to worry about so I'll stick to girls here).  But frequently it seems they can't see beyond the end of the current year.

 

However I am pleased to see that nearly all Vocational schools now have cap sleeve or vest top leotards available as part of the uniform, which allows a bra to be worn. 

[primrose]

When this nasty remark was made against my dd she was and still is tiny. I felt the principle was just being plain nasty. My dd was offered and took up a place at a very prestigious classical ballet school.If you was referring to me about naming and shaming a school then I am more than happy to give my real name. I wouldnt name the school purely to prevent other parents worrying if they have children attending the school.

 

Edited to add that when I asked her actual ballet teacher about the comments made she did say there was nothing wrong with my dds shape regarding classical ballet. Her RBS associate teacher didnt think there was a problem either. To be on the safe side I asked Francesca Filipi from Wells ballet and also Anna du Boison both said they felt she had perfect shape and facility. Thank goodness she had good support from other well respected teachers.

Edited May 10, 2014 by primrose

[Anna C]

Don't worry Primrose, my comment wasn't aimed at you. I issued a general reminder as there was some encouragement to "name and shame" earlier in the thread and I wanted to remind people of the Acceptable Use Policy.

[primrose]

Ah thats ok then. I totally agree that we dont need to name the schools. The other teachers were wonderful and supportive. The principle had never taught my dd.just one persons opinion at the end of the day but caused my dd to havea very poor body image even to this day. She also lost all her confidence.

[Anna C]

What makes it even worse is that body shape for girls continues to change until they are between 16 and 18, according to dd's dance physio.

 

Therefore for ANY school or Director to judge or assess out *purely* based on weight or body shape earlier than 16 seems short sighted and, as you say, can cause terrible distress and loss of confidence.

[LinMM]

I just cannot agree that even in the name of ballet...and in that professional level world ....it is right to tell a young girl who is already under weight.... by health standards ....that she is "too big" to continue with ballet.....which is the message given by saying you can't continue here ......not because you are not a beautiful dancer but because you are too big.

It is true that some girls may suddenly put on weight so that they become (maybe only temporarily) larger than they were and if this was to be over weight in the health sense eg on medical charts ......then obviously this could be a worry......but all the time that child is actually under weight then it's not only cruel but irresponsible and encourages anorexia and other eating disorders.

[Lucinda]

No teacher should ever tell a child or student that s/he is (too) fat. I suspect that this is one of the reasons that schools in the UK do not give reasons for assessing out as the question of whether a student is the 'wrong' shape or size is an emotive one. I think that one has to be realistic. The ballet aesthetic is not only slim in the sense of little body fat but fine-boned. Women, in the UK at least, are getting taller, broader and fatter and ballet dancers really are exceptional in build compared to the general population. Even ballet dancers who are not regarded as thin are tiny. The other thing that I notice is that very few have any kind of bust at all. You have to be pretty flat chested to wear those thin leotards which are worn for some Balanchine ballets and a lot of more contemporary work. I have a bit of an issue with this. Why are so many ballet costumes designed for barely pubescent girls rather than fully grown women?.

I think we should be describing ideal ballet dancers (especially to impressionable teenagers) as healthy, not thin or tiny or fat. There are definitely some dancers who are aesthetically Balanchine type dancers but are also look healthy (RBS Sarah Lamb is one who immediately comes to mind) but there are also many ballet dancers who are more athletic looking, have a bust and are healthy too e.g Tamara Rojo, Igone de Jonge (Dutch National Ballet)

At a talk I went to recently, the AD (David McAllister) of The Australian Ballet stated that he likes his female dancers to look like women not girls, which was great to hear. There are many female ballet dancers in world renowned companies that look like women and not pre pubescent girls thank goodness. These are the role models that I point out to my impressionable teenage DD.

Eating disorders are unfortunately still too common amongst female ballet students and I feel we should focus on "optimum weight for good health" especially in the teenage years when the body shape is still changing.

[balletla]

I would caution against citing specific named dancers as examples and saying that they are 'healthy'. You may think that they look 'healthy' but in actual fact you have no idea as to whether they are or not, or whether they are dealing with any issues.

[JulieW]

Please can we stick to discussions about appraisals in this thread to help others when searching in the future. There are other threads about weight/health, and you could start one about whether schools allow the wearing of bras if you'd like to discuss it further - it'll get "lost" here.

 

Thanks all.

[Lucinda]

I would caution against citing specific named dancers as examples and saying that they are 'healthy'. You may think that they look 'healthy' but in actual fact you have no idea as to whether they are or not, or whether they are dealing with any issues.

I carefully chose well known principal dancers who I believe could not have possibly have attained their positions without being physically and mentally healthy. They are ballet role models that aspiring teenage ballet dancers look up to.

[aileen]

With the greatest respect to Sarah Lamb, I really don't think that she should be given as a role model for young dancers, physique-wise. She is, of course, a brilliant dancer.

[JulieW]

Please can we stick to discussions about appraisals in this thread to help others when searching in the future. There are other threads about weight/health, and you could start one about whether schools allow the wearing of bras if you'd like to discuss it further - it'll get "lost" here.

 

Thanks all.

We were all posting at the same time - just "bumping" my comment.

[JulieW]

I can't do it from my phone, but I'll sere if Spanner's online - she's good at that sort of thing :-)

 

For now, let's just so with the bra/leotard comment please everyone, until we've sorted it

[Anna C]

Done - discussions about bras/bust support here please: http://www.balletcoforum.com/index.php?/topic/6824-leotardsuniform-and-bust-support/

 

Aileen, I hope you don't mind, but I've taken your question re uniform design and bras out of your post above and pasted it into the other thread.

[dramascientist]

So after the awful comments DD got from the principal after her appraisal she has still offered DD a place in the upper school....shocks all round! I unfortunately had great delight in turning it down and adding that the reason was we felt that the school was not right for our daughter (was that wrong of me?)

 

Now I feel better!

Drsc

[Legseleven]

That's brilliant, dramascientist - it shows how ridiculous the principal's comments about your DD's shape were as she was still offered a place at the upper school and you were absolutely right to say that the place was being turned down because the school was not right for her! I laughed out loud on reading your post ;-)

[dramascientist]

Thanks Legseleven, DD feels so much better now because she feels like her standard of dance must be good if the principal still wants her to stay. Why she has to be so cruel though is beyond me ???