Post-transmission: BBC Panorama documentary/investigation into vocational schools

[Lifeafterballet]

7 hours ago, Kerfuffle said:

Is that so for any degree or just the ones to do with health, computer science or architecture (from the list)? 

We were told by my daughters ballet school that the DaDa is a totally separate pot of money from student finance and that she would not be limited in her choice of degree subjects because of it. 
This was one of the reasons she opted to stay on at that particular school for 6th form and not go to a degree one. She didn’t want dance to be the only degree she ever had as it was always her intention to change pathway completely.

My son is currently a professional ballet dancer in Europe with the same qualifications and was DaDa funded too. 
In the country he is in, degrees are free to all EU passport holders and for those that are not they average about £3000 a year for tuition fees. That’s a third cheaper than the debt his sister is running up 🤣 He not coming back to the U.K. to study. 

[Jewel]

Lifeafterballet.  I'd really like to ask you some specific questions about your daughter's degree  & the application process but you are not accepting messages

[Lifeafterballet]

32 minutes ago, Jewel said:

Lifeafterballet.  I'd really like to ask you some specific questions about your daughter's degree  & the application process but you are not accepting messages

My inbox might be full. I’ll change that 😊 Bear with … 

[Ballet Saga]

On 29/09/2023 at 22:21, Ruby Foo said:

I’m afraid that is not true. The degree is through Roehampton but it’s unique to RBS.

In third year, much of the work is done in the studio and therefore you cannot finish it anywhere but RBS.

This is what we we’re told by RBS

That’s strange as I was told the opposite last week. 

[Emeralds]

On 30/09/2023 at 19:59, Kerfuffle said:

Fantastic career choice - did she have to do science a levels first or was she accepted with her diploma plus GCSEs? 

Hi Kerfuffle, for nursing or midwifery careers/courses you don’t need any A levels; there is an access course. There is also funding/bursaries (they keep changing what they call it). I have a young relative who did it that way after having interruptions in her education and no A levels, and at that time the training was free; it then changed to fees but with bursaries.

[Emeralds]

If any of your children haven’t decided about MFLs (modem foreign languages) to pick for GCSE or year 7, German is a good choice as a lot of German universities offer free university tuition (but are taught and examined in German)... even for non-German and non-EU students. In Switzerland, there is at least one university which offers extraordinarily low fees regardless of nationality (£660 per term only!) - it’s Einstein’s alma mater, the German speaking ETH Zurich (rated at the same level of difficulty as Cambridge, Oxford or Imperial). But there are other German speaking universities which are not as tough to graduate from! The German and Swiss taxpayers and governments believe the subsidies are worth it, even for foreign students, as whether they stay on to work or carry out research in their country or return to work in their homeland or elsewhere, the links forged and the skills they gain will benefit Germany/Switzerland in some way (such a refreshing change from our government’s way of doing things!) Just something to consider if finances are a problem......

[alison]

I'm getting the impression that quite a few German universities are doing much teaching in English these days - although that may be just for technical subjects, and I don't know whether that extends to exams. But yes, still a good idea to consider learning German - although it's getting difficult to find schools which offer it these days, I understand

[Pas de Quatre]

You are right Alison, many schools have dropped German. I have a close friend who is German, married to a Brit and has lived here for over 40 years. We met when we took our daughters to Tumbletots  classes and then found the girls were enrolled to go to the same school.

 

She was a German language teacher and from being a full time post at one school, the hours and number of pupils gradually fell, so then she was split between two schools, then part time and eventually retired when German was no longer a subject option.

[Neverdancedjustamum]

4 hours ago, alison said:

I'm getting the impression that quite a few German universities are doing much teaching in English these days - although that may be just for technical subjects, and I don't know whether that extends to exams. But yes, still a good idea to consider learning German - although it's getting difficult to find schools which offer it these days, I understand

Quite a few still do, thankfully. Both my DCs go to state schools. In my DD’s school they all take 3 languages - Spanish, French and German - from Years 7 to 9. Year 10 and 11 they pick the 1-2 they want to do for GCSE. Same with my DS’s school, with the addition of Latin and Classics in Years 7-8 (so they basically take 5 subjects classed as “languages” in the first 2 years of high school). I remember in year 7 joking with my DD that she should pick German for her GCSE so she can look into going there for vocational school as we know someone who did go to one of the bigger schools there (who, incidentally, I’m pretty sure didn’t know any German before they went there).

[alison]

Wow.  That's incredibly enlightened of them - and increasingly rare, sadly   (Although even I might have balked at doing 3 languages from scratch at the same time!)  I too have friends who are former German teachers but can't find a post any more.

[Emeralds]

Sorry to have led this topic slightly astray but just to add that most of the  courses or degrees in English in German universities aren’t eligible for the subsidy as they are felt to be for international students rather than local students so no free tuition fees, although it’s worth checking the details to see if it still works out cheaper. 

 

On a more ballet school/studies related note, German (and as many languages as you can pick up) is also useful for ballet graduates as many smaller German companies are useful at offering that crucial first job, that can become a stepping stone to big things. Eg Gregory Dean trained at Arts Educational at Tring Park and London, got his first job at Ballet Vorpommern in Germany, moved to Scottish Ballet after a year, then after 3 years secured a contract at Royal Danish Ballet, was promoted to principal dancer there after 5 years, and where he has stayed ever since. (They’ve given him choreography opportunities and he’s quietly made some story ballets that have done well critically and at the box office). RDB also has good pension and other benefits for employees! Not bad at all. (Many German companies do speak - mostly or half the time - in English during class, rehearsals, on stage etc as many of the dancers and artists are from different countries, but it’s of course good to be able to understand the language if you’re living there temporarily.)

 

Yes, MFL provision in schools can be patchy nowadays.....and in some boroughs even provision of teachers can be patchy! Very important to check the details out. A new secondary school has just been built near me (no RAAC, yay!) with impressive new facilities and their website looks very earnest and ambitious, with plans to encourage/insist every student is super organised, unfailingly punctual, widely read and no doubt as many good grades as possible. But they only offer 1 option- French- for MFL. 

Edited October 3, 2023 by Emeralds

[Lifeafterballet]

Moving on to Drama Schools …….

The stories of abuse are so awful 😞 

 

 

https://news.sky.com/story/i-was-forced-to-smell-soiled-underwear-inside-the-culture-of-abuse-at-the-uks-top-drama-schools-13003497
 

 

[Fiz]

10 minutes ago, Lifeafterballet said:

Moving on to Drama Schools …….

The stories of abuse are so awful 😞 

 

 

https://news.sky.com/story/i-was-forced-to-smell-soiled-underwear-inside-the-culture-of-abuse-at-the-uks-top-drama-schools-13003497
 

 

 I read this yesterday and was so thankful that our youngest daughter, who had her heart set on going to East 15, didn’t get in.

[Pas de Quatre]

Nothing surprises me anymore! Some 12 years ago a friend confided in me how distressed she was by the performance her daughter did as part of her A level drama course.  The girl had to simulate masterbation on stage. As she was only 17 at the time I would have thought this contravened all sorts of child protection laws. Possibly wouldn't happen now.

[Lifeafterballet]

When you look at the experiences that were shared by ballet students and now drama students my feeling is that the schools are doing to the pupils what was done to them and they justify this abuse by saying that they are preparing them for the real work place. Sadly I think they are right. Life in a ballet company in our experience is no different to that in the schools. Body shaming, poor injury management etc

With the ‘me too’ movement exposing more and more awful ‘casting couch’ experiences I fear the film and television world may be no different 😢

 

[Ruby Foo]

https://pointemagazine.com/grooming-and-sexual-abuse-in-ballet/
 

Not sure if this has already been posted but an important read for all ballet parents.

[Hadtopost]

The producers of the Panorama doc are working on a follow up. Anyone who would be interested in speaking to them with experience of any of these issues at YDA / Elmhurst / RBS / Tring can contact Mark Daly by email, mark.daly@bbc.co.uk . You will have complete control of the situation and can choose to remain anonymous, no-one will be named, quoted or otherwise identified without their explicit permission. 

[alison]

Only those four?

[Hadtopost]

On 11/11/2023 at 11:59, alison said:

Only those four?

I would contact him on the email address if you wanted to discuss any other schools. It is to do with having verification from more than one source I think.

[Tiaramum]

On 12/09/2023 at 15:14, Rachelm said:

I was so angry and disappointed by what I heard on Panorama that I’ve just written a 3 page letter to the RBS, sent by email, expressing my disappointment in them, but also how I think things can be changed for the better. I doubt it will even be read, but I at least feel better for writing it!

Our of curiosity did you ever get a reply?

[Lifeafterballet]

https://news.sky.com/story/ballet-teacher-jonathan-barton-acquitted-of-sexual-assaults-on-teenage-pupils-13024217
 

 

[Ondine]

53 minutes ago, Lifeafterballet said:

https://news.sky.com/story/ballet-teacher-jonathan-barton-acquitted-of-sexual-assaults-on-teenage-pupils-13024217

 

That's one for tomorrow's LINKS then @Ian Macmillan?

 

I am not sure any comment here is appropriate but I think that requires wide dissemination.

 

 

[Anna C]

15 hours ago, Lifeafterballet said:

https://news.sky.com/story/ballet-teacher-jonathan-barton-acquitted-of-sexual-assaults-on-teenage-pupils-13024217
 

 

Thank you, Lifeafterballet.  As a Mum, I just want to express my thanks to all those who testified and/or provided statements regarding this case.  Thinking of all involved.

[Ondine]

3 hours ago, Anna C said:

Thank you, Lifeafterballet.  As a Mum, I just want to express my thanks to all those who testified and/or provided statements regarding this case.  Thinking of all involved.

 

Today's LINKS via @Ian Macmillan has the BBC report.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-67641435

 

Gentle reminder to all that there is a 'not guilty' verdict and a 'not proven' so whatever your own views, libel laws apply.

 

"By the verdict of each of the charges, you have been acquitted by the jury and are free to go."

 

 

 

 

[Hadtopost]

More dancers allege body-shaming and bullying at UK ballet schools

[Kerfuffle]

What’s worrying is the fact that in spite of these reports  schools are still getting outstanding ofsteds, luring the parents into a false sense of security. 

[Lifeafterballet]

4 hours ago, Kerfuffle said:

What’s worrying is the fact that in spite of these reports  schools are still getting outstanding ofsteds, luring the parents into a false sense of security. 

Ofsted should interview pupils and parents who have left a school. 

[Anna C]

4 hours ago, Kerfuffle said:

What’s worrying is the fact that in spite of these reports  schools are still getting outstanding ofsteds, luring the parents into a false sense of security. 

And that’s the schools who ARE inspected by OFSTED or the ISI.  We’ve been saying for a long time that 16+ “schools” are not subject to compulsory inspections in the same way that 11+ schools are, and are therefore slipping through a gap.

[Kerfuffle]

Can they opt out? As Ruby Foo says, it’s better if parents/students who have recently left can comment as they are often intimidated while still there. Unless the reports are truthful it’s a waste of time. 

Edited December 20, 2023 by Kerfuffle

[Farawaydancer]

1 hour ago, Lifeafterballet said:

Ofsted should interview pupils and parents who have left a school. 

Parents can complete an OFSTED Parentview questionnaire at any time, they don’t need to wait until it’s being inspected. 

[Thecatsmother]

I was thinking maybe Deborah Bull who has links to government could raise the issue of the need for an independent enquiry. She would be well placed to do this given her past interests in dancers mental health etc?

[BalletP]

Quote

20 hours ago, Kerfuffle said:

What’s worrying is the fact that in spite of these reports  schools are still getting outstanding ofsteds, luring the parents into a false sense of security. 

 

 

Most probably because everybody’s experience is different , my child is currently at one of the vocational schools mentioned by the BBC article and to be frank has a wildly different opinion

to what has been mentioned within it. Finding it an incredibly nurturing and fulfilling experience, I couldn’t drag her out of it if I tried.

So from my own personal experience and point of view I can understand the ofsted results.

Obviously not wanting to undermine yourself or anyone on here who has had a bad experience.

 

I do think that it’s important though to express the fact that from what I’m aware of, my child and the absolute majority of her class peers are having a fantastic time doing everyday what they truly love. Which I personally don’t take for granted, they are lucky to have that experience.

 

I’ve reluctantly replied to this thread as its such a tough subject but I do think some balance needs to be kept here.

Edited December 21, 2023 by BalletP

[Anna C]

I appreciate your thoughts, BalletP, and I’m glad to hear that your child is happy and thriving at her vocational school.  
 

A gentle reminder though, that whether the comments are negative or positive, we can and should only speak for our own child/ren, not “the absolute majority” of their peers/classmates.  That goes against the “hearsay” rules of the forum.