Post-transmission: BBC Panorama documentary/investigation into vocational schools

[Ballet Saga]

26 minutes ago, Kerfuffle said:

I agree, without negating any of the harm that has happened to some pupils in the past it’s important to stay positive, especially as a parent right now. 

Yes exactly. The last thing students need to hear is ‘if you don’t do the graduate year and finish your degree, you’re stuffed and ‘you’ve only one chance to get your academics done’.

 

What they do need to hear is, ‘if you don’t finish your degree don’t worry there are many ways to continue’ and ‘if you want to change to a different degree, don’t worry you can but it has to be from this list’, and ‘if you have to give up ballet your world won’t end’.

 

Yes many students may have bad experiences but let’s not misinform which just adds to the worry. 

[glowlight]

Let's also let our young dancers know that doing an academic degree is not the only route into another career when they hang up their ballet shoes. Many employers ask for a degree level qualification, and will consider a National Diploma in Dance as this.

 

For those careers where a specific degree is needed (eg for nursing) then I believe that there are special funding arrangements available. 

 

 

[Neverdancedjustamum]

From what I gather, it’s not impossible but obviously not as easy and straightforward as the usual (more traditional) fresh application to higher education. It is understandably more limited once you embark initially on another qualification.

The number of years that you can get a Tuition Fee Loan is normally calculated as:

Length of current course + 1 year - number of years of previous study

 

source: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/going-back-to-uni-or-repeating-a-year

 

There is also a list on there of examples of commons reasons in applying for an extra year of tuition support, which could be acceptable. However, these are quoted as those that won’t be normally accepted:

• financial hardship
• not liking your course
• reasons within your control

 

It’s that last point above that will be very hard to evidence against.

Edited September 29, 2023 by Neverdancedjustamum

[Ballet Saga]

10 minutes ago, glowlight said:

Let's also let our young dancers know that doing an academic degree is not the only route into another career when they hang up their ballet shoes. Many employers ask for a degree level qualification, and will consider a National Diploma in Dance as this.

 

For those careers where a specific degree is needed (eg for nursing) then I believe that there are special funding arrangements available. 

 

 

Yes very true. You don’t need a degree. There are so many options out there. 
 

It’s a cliche but when one door closes another one opens! 

[Ballet Saga]

4 minutes ago, Neverdancedjustamum said:

From what I gather, it’s not impossible but obviously not as easy and straightforward as the usual (more traditional) fresh application to higher education. It is understandably more limited once you embark initially on another qualification.

The number of years that you can get a Tuition Fee Loan is normally calculated as:

Length of current course + 1 year - number of years of previous study

 

source: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/going-back-to-uni-or-repeating-a-year

 

There is also a list on there of examples of commons reasons in applying for an extra year of tuition support, which could be acceptable. However, these are quoted as those that won’t be normally accepted:

• financial hardship
• not liking your course
• reasons within your control

 

It’s that last point above that will be very hard to evidence against.

I’ve been through every process that’s being talked about. Including funding for a masters. 
 

It just takes some know-how to navigate. Which is why it’s so important that people know that there are options. 

[Ballet Saga]

31 minutes ago, Jewel said:

Graceful - you are the one mis-informing.  You cannot get 2 years funding on 1 degree and then transfer to another degree and get another 3 years worth of funding to complete that degree.  You simply cannot.

And actually yes you can do 2 years of a degree. Go and do another one and get 3 years funding! 

[Jewel]

One of the very limited lists of specific degrees, yes, or a top up, again yes.  But not transferring from say two years of dance to English Literature or History etc etc.

 

But you appear to think you know it all so I will leave anyone in this position (as we currently are) to investigate for themselves.

[Ballet Saga]

26 minutes ago, Jewel said:

One of the very limited lists of specific degrees, yes, or a top up, again yes.  But not transferring from say two years of dance to English Literature or History etc etc.

 

But you appear to think you know it all so I will leave anyone in this position (as we currently are) to investigate for themselves.

You can join a degree at 2nd year, finish it and then go and do another degree. There are lots of options and you being snarky towards me doesn’t really help the situation for anyone does it? 
Transferring to another humanities degree is actually easier. You can even convert say an English Literature degree to a Law degree without doing the full Law degree.

 

You could

finish a degree through open university using your ucas points earned. 
 

If you’re having issues finding out what’s available I wouldn’t recommend speaking to student finance as on the whole their call centre staff don’t have a clue. 
 

Edited September 29, 2023 by Graceful
Mentioning student finance and open university

[LinMM]

Is all this funding in the form of loans though? So you can have the funding but will have to pay it back eventually? 
 

 

[Ballet Saga]

2 minutes ago, LinMM said:

Is all this funding in the form of loans though? So you can have the funding but will have to pay it back eventually? 
 

 

Yes loans but not as in a bank loan. They’re completely different loans and you only start paying them back when you earn a certain amount and then it’s just a small percentage. They also don’t go against your credit rating (although I’m sure if you don’t pay them when asked and it goes to debt collection they will! I’m not sure how that works). 
The money is normally taken directly from your wages. 
 

Edited to add that if you never earn enough you don’t have to pay it back. There is a time limit I think that means eventually it’s written off. But I don’t know the details of that. 

Edited September 29, 2023 by Graceful

[Ballet Saga]

39 minutes ago, Jewel said:

One of the very limited lists of specific degrees, yes, or a top up, again yes.  But not transferring from say two years of dance to English Literature or History etc etc.

 

But you appear to think you know it all so I will leave anyone in this position (as we currently are) to investigate for themselves.

https://www.roehampton.ac.uk/undergraduate-courses/dance/?gclid=CjwKCAjw69moBhBgEiwAUFCx2HYqOUGLn8eMiaQZu60EkG7ggQx1ZG1mJQH_Xq5R-3XsEIhvHs1qoBoCoIQQAvD_BwE
 

Apparently it’s this university that you do the degree through at Royal and you can finish it with them. 
 

Also I was told that Elmhurst give you the opportunity to finish your degree through distance learning so maybe you can do that with Roehampton? 

[Ondine]

Student loans, paying back and interest rates.

 

https://www.gov.uk/repaying-your-student-loan/what-you-pay

 

Interest

How much interest you’re charged depends which plan type you’re on. You’re currently charged:

• 6.25% if you’re on Plan 1
• 7.3% if you’re on Plan 2
• 6.25% if you’re on Plan 4
• 7.3% if you’re on Plan 5
• 7.3% if you’re on a Postgraduate Loan plan

Edited September 29, 2023 by Ondine

[Neverdancedjustamum]

All this is a contentious topic too - even separately from the original topic of this thread. In addition to funding concerns, another thing to consider is the government’s plans in relation to setting an independent regulator as a result of the Augar Review. It’s a discussion one can have for days but basically the government has been accused of devising a plan that attacks arts and the humanities. The review recommends U.K. HE courses should be “better aligned with the economy’s needs’ and ‘certain courses which lead to disappointment for a minority of students should be limited”. This is more to do with universities but is reflective of the kind of government educational policies we can expect to see in the future.

[Ballet Saga]

41 minutes ago, Ondine said:

Student loans, paying back and interest rates.

 

https://www.gov.uk/repaying-your-student-loan/what-you-pay

 

Interest

How much interest you’re charged depends which plan type you’re on. You’re currently charged:

• 6.25% if you’re on Plan 1
• 7.3% if you’re on Plan 2
• 6.25% if you’re on Plan 4
• 7.3% if you’re on Plan 5
• 7.3% if you’re on a Postgraduate Loan plan

I don’t think the interest is the most important information so I’m not sure why you’ve added it…

[Ballet Saga]

42 minutes ago, Neverdancedjustamum said:

All this is a contentious topic too - even separately from the original topic of this thread. In addition to funding concerns, another thing to consider is the government’s plans in relation to setting an independent regulator as a result of the Augar Review. It’s a discussion one can have for days but basically the government has been accused of devising a plan that attacks arts and the humanities. The review recommends U.K. HE courses should be “better aligned with the economy’s needs’ and ‘certain courses which lead to disappointment for a minority of students should be limited”. This is more to do with universities but is reflective of the kind of government educational policies we can expect to see in the future.

All the more reason to kick the tories out I’m sure! 

[Anna C]

Just now, Graceful said:

I don’t think the interest is the most important information so I’m not sure why you’ve added it…

It’s all important information.  The more information you have, the better.

[Anna C]

1 hour ago, Graceful said:

And actually yes you can do 2 years of a degree. Go and do another one and get 3 years funding! 

Not necessarily.  As with everything to do with funding, it depends:

 

”Your funding may be affected if:

• the duration of your preferred course is longer or shorter than your current one;
• you would be starting your preferred course from the beginning, after already being partway through your current course;
• you wish to change to a different course at another institution;
• you have used your gift year from Student Finance England already 
• you had previous Higher education studies prior to starting your course at the University”

[Ondine]

The entire system of student loans is contentious, and the rising interest rates part of that.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2023/apr/25/record-48bn-interest-added-to-student-debt-in-britain-last-year

[Ballet Saga]

12 minutes ago, Anna C said:

It’s all important information.  The more information you have, the better.

So put it all up. Not just the interest as it isn’t the most important. Also it doesn’t explain what the plans are. 
 

I think the interest was put up to make it sound more like a bank loan - which it isn’t. Further confusing people…

[Ballet Saga]

7 minutes ago, Ondine said:

The entire system of student loans is contentious, and the rising interest rates part of that.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2023/apr/25/record-48bn-interest-added-to-student-debt-in-britain-last-year

This is just scaremongering. Interest rates are rising everywhere as I’m sure you know. 

[Ballet Saga]

11 minutes ago, Anna C said:

Not necessarily.  As with everything to do with funding, it depends:

 

”Your funding may be affected if:

• the duration of your preferred course is longer or shorter than your current one;
• you would be starting your preferred course from the beginning, after already being partway through your current course;
• you wish to change to a different course at another institution;
• you have used your gift year from Student Finance England already 
• you had previous Higher education studies prior to starting your course at the University”

Of course it depends, but the comment in response to what I said, said it’s simply not correct. And that’s more true. 

[Anna C]

17 minutes ago, Ondine said:

The entire system of student loans is contentious, and the rising interest rates part of that.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2023/apr/25/record-48bn-interest-added-to-student-debt-in-britain-last-year

Add to that the absolute outrage of Maintenance Grants having been replaced by repayable Maintenance Loans, meaning the poorest students having to pay back the most.  
 

In fact best not to get me started on Student Loans, for the sake of my blood pressure.

 

To sum up then, a student leaving vocational school after 6.2/2 years with a foundation degree/Level 5 diploma or equivalent should be able to get funding to top up to a degree in the same or a related subject.  They might be able to change to a different degree IF the new course will accept the credits from the vocational school, but how many years funding may be available, will depend on various things.  
 

As always, best to check with your chosen university and also with SFE or equivalent.
 

[Hadtopost]

2 hours ago, Kerfuffle said:

I agree, without negating any of the harm that has happened to some pupils in the past it’s important to stay positive, especially as a parent right now. 

 

Just to point out that my DD left ballet in 2022 due to the damage done by her experiences, Ruby Foo has been posting about her DD's experiences in the past year. 

 

Following the Panorama show DD wrote her story to Mark Daly from Panorama who replied and has said he is looking into possibly doing a follow up programme. I can assure you it is very much not 'in the past' that the harm and damage occurred.

 

 

 

[Ondine]

 

 

They are but student loan rates are contentious though this is veering away from the topic of this thread.

 

 

 

 

 

[Anna C]

7 minutes ago, Graceful said:

This is just scaremongering. Interest rates are rising everywhere as I’m sure you know. 

It’s not scaremongering.  Student Loans were never intended to attract interest, so some people might not be aware that they now do.

 

As I said, it’s important to have all the information.

 

Anyway, let’s get back on topic, shall we?

[Anna C]

4 minutes ago, Hadtopost said:

 

Just to point out that my DD left ballet in 2022 due to the damage done by her experiences, Ruby Foo has been posting about her DD's experiences in the past year. 

 

Following the Panorama show DD wrote her story to Mark Daly from Panorama who replied and has said he is looking into possibly doing a follow up programme. I can assure you it is very much not 'in the past' that the harm and damage occurred.

 

 

 

Welcome to the forum, Hadtopost.  

[Ondine]

1 hour ago, Graceful said:

it’s just a small percentage.

 The reason I added the student loan rates was to show the actual rates. Nothing to do with bank loans.

 

Student loans in my view are an abomination. 

 

 

[Ondine]

8 minutes ago, Hadtopost said:

Just to point out that my DD left ballet in 2022 due to the damage done by her experiences, Ruby Foo has been posting about her DD's experiences in the past year. 

 

Following the Panorama show DD wrote her story to Mark Daly from Panorama who replied and has said he is looking into possibly doing a follow up programme. I can assure you it is very much not 'in the past' that the harm and damage occurred.

 

 

How dreadfully sad.  I'm sorry to hear this but well done your DD to try to change things.

[Kerfuffle]

6 minutes ago, Hadtopost said:

 

Just to point out that my DD left ballet in 2022 due to the damage done by her experiences, Ruby Foo has been posting about her DD's experiences in the past year. 

 

Following the Panorama show DD wrote her story to Mark Daly from Panorama who replied and has said he is looking into possibly doing a follow up programme. I can assure you it is very much not 'in the past' that the harm and damage occurred.

 

 

 

However harrowing these experiences are or have been it’s not the same for everyone. Those students who decide to change routes for other reasons deserve to be told accurately what their options are. Panorama has lifted the lid on some of the real problems out there and I’m not denying that. I just wanted to know what the facts are when it comes to higher education, when my DD is ready to hang up her pointe shoes. 

[Sim]

10 minutes ago, Ondine said:

 

Student loans in my view are an abomination. 

 

 

They are indeed.  My 32 year-old daughter is still paying off her university loan, 11 years after graduation.  And they charge interest, and they help themselves to a chunk whenever she gets a little bonus at work.  Don't even start me....

[Hadtopost]

15 minutes ago, Kerfuffle said:

However harrowing these experiences are or have been it’s not the same for everyone. Those students who decide to change routes for other reasons deserve to be told accurately what their options are. Panorama has lifted the lid on some of the real problems out there and I’m not denying that. I just wanted to know what the facts are when it comes to higher education, when my DD is ready to hang up her pointe shoes. 

Appreciate that, it may be a good idea for a new thread?

[Harwel]

The further education issue is very complicated and there are certainly no hard and fast rules.  Each case must be investigated on its own merits. My son left Tring with 2 A’levels.  Because of the change in his circumstance he did them both in 1 year (his 3rd year of upper school) .  One was through school, the other was distance learning.  He then got a degree apprenticeship for a construction management company.  They required so many UCAS points but the 2 A’levels were not enough - he actually got onto the course because of his level 6 diploma in dance which he had just completed. We still laugh at the fact he qualified to train as a surveyor with his dance diploma.  After 4 years of working full time and studying he has just passed his degree.  It has been an incredibly hard path to tread, but I believe his tenacity, perfectionism, incredible work ethic and desire to succeed has all come from his dance training.  
 

There is no excuse for the horrible treatment that does go on in dance training - not for everyone - but it does exist.  But there is always a way out with the correct support and love and understanding from good family.  The future can be very bright for these beautiful young dancers in whatever path they end up taking, as the transferable skills are very highly sought after in so many other walks of life.  My son was told last week by one of the senior partners of his company that when he heard he was getting a ballet dancer he was very sceptical, but it turns out that he is ‘my best guy’ and he would love to find my like my son. 
 

I would highly recommend seeking out degree apprenticeships if at all possible as the degree is funded by the company and by the time they qualify they have years worth of experience and no debt. 

[Ballet Saga]

36 minutes ago, Ondine said:

 The reason I added the student loan rates was to show the actual rates. Nothing to do with bank loans.

 

Student loans in my view are an abomination. 

 

 

So what do you expect people to do if they can’t afford to self fund a degree? 
 

My experience of them hasn’t  been an abomination at all. And I know plenty of others who did degrees and they enabled them to have a good career.