Post-transmission: BBC Panorama documentary/investigation into vocational schools

[Ballet Saga]

44 minutes ago, Anna C said:

It’s not scaremongering.  Student Loans were never intended to attract interest, so some people might not be aware that they now do.

 

As I said, it’s important to have all the information.

 

Anyway, let’s get back on topic, shall we?

It’s scaremongering on this thread. Have you told others to get back on topic? 

[Kerfuffle]

This topic changed about 3 pages ago and it’s a fairly natural progression to what happens next for all dancers, whether retiring or leaving before joining the profession. Thanks for sharing your son’s story @Harwel, and reminding me of the apprenticeship degree route. 

[Ondine]

3 minutes ago, Graceful said:

So what do you expect people to do if they can’t afford to self fund a degree? 

 

I think the entire concept of paying fees for education is wrong.

 

I think the old system was a great deal better. That enabled many to have a good career who would never have considered higher education.

 

I think an excellent education should be free to all who will benefit, without being saddled with huge debts.

 

I'm a bit of an idealist.  I also think we should have a well funded NHS and everyone should have a home.

 

And that's getting way off topic.

 

 

[Ballet Saga]

1 minute ago, Ondine said:

 

I think the entire concept of paying fees for education is wrong.

 

I think the old system was a great deal better. That enabled many to have a good career who would never have considered higher education.

 

I think an excellent education should be free to all who will benefit, without being saddled with huge debts.

 

I'm a bit of an idealist.  I also think we should have a well funded NHS and everyone should have a home.

 

And that's getting way off topic.

 

 

Yes the old system was better but it’s gone. Maybe it will come back again with the right government…

 

But for now the loan system gives young people from lower income families the chance to do a degree. 

[Ondine]

23 minutes ago, Graceful said:

But for now the loan system gives young people from lower income families the chance to do a degree.

 

As did the old system, without the worry of being saddled with debt. Fees were paid and maintenance grants were available, though means tested. We need to agitate for a return.

 

An old thread re ballet quals and UCAS points. Always best to check current situations, things do change, however, worth knowing. Also, very good advice here if you read the thread. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 29, 2023 by Ondine

[Allwrong]

Just to clarify the student finance loan/not a loan situation: it’s not so much a loan as a graduate tax. The amount you owe at the end of your studies and the interest you pay on the ‘loan’ bear no relation to the rate at which you pay that amount (loan + interest) back.  The payback rate is simply calculated as a percentage of income, just like a tax, so while your income is low you pay nothing, and then a bit more as you earn more. Then after 30 (40 now?) years the remaining debt is cancelled. 
The ‘interest’ owed relates to the overall sum you will theoretically need to pay back, but you may never get that far before the debt is cancelled. 
Under the 2022 regime, only 27% of student loans are expected to be paid back in full. An astonishingly low figure. My children have little faith in their future earning power (!), so have maxed out their borrowing (MA, year abroad), on the assumption they’d pay the tax/repayment for 30 years and still not have paid off their 3 yr loans, so anything else is ‘free’ money.

 

But BE CAREFUL: with the new regime from this year, this is expected to rise to 61% of students. So it’s a more tricky calculation.

 

 

Edited September 29, 2023 by Allwrong

[Allwrong]

Have corrected an ambiguity in previous post! Sorry!

Edited September 29, 2023 by Allwrong

[Drdee]

@Harwel I agree with the degree apprenticeship route. Did your son live at home during that time? This is one of challenges of retraining and what is available geographically. I am sure the organisation is richer as a result.

[Drdee]

Again I think writing in the forum can be tricky - our messages can be misinterpreted or misconstrued. Some kindness and trying to understand the other point of view can only help us. I know that what can be perceived as ‘negativity’ or ‘scaremongering’ was never the intention of those expressing their frustrations. The HE funding model is frustratingly difficult and changing then the differences between sectors (vocational, apprenticeships etc) is notoriously political. I do have personal experiences in these matters in my HE role.

[Harwel]

43 minutes ago, Drdee said:

@Harwel I agree with the degree apprenticeship route. Did your son live at home during that time? This is one of challenges of retraining and what is available geographically. I am sure the organisation is richer as a result.

No he didn’t live at home.  He has been renting in London since he was 19.  We are 130 miles away.  Shared houses, flats and sometimes with friends, sometimes with strangers.  After 4 years he is more settled in a flat share with a friend from work.  It’s not been easy. But he has been able to find it all himself with his wages. 

[Anna C]

3 hours ago, Graceful said:

It’s scaremongering on this thread. Have you told others to get back on topic? 

I’m not going to have a debate with you, Graceful.  
 

As one of a team of Moderators, it’s part of my role to keep threads on topic and to keep them from descending into arguments.   That’s how we run this forum, and it’s how we are working hard to keep this thread open, which I’m sure is what we all want.  

[Ondine]

19 minutes ago, Anna C said:

we are working hard to keep this thread open, which I’m sure is what we all want.  

 

I've also said we are veering a long way off topic to attempt to keep it vaguely on topic and I'm not (shock) a mod (in fact I'm often on the naughty step... 😏) and tried to be polite (cos otherwise I'll be on yes, the naughty step) so maybe we can all try to be polite?

 

There's a great deal more I'd like to have said on this thread at times but I haven't. I've reined in my inner Rottweiler.😇

 

Suggest other do likewise. x

 

 

[glowlight]

I've started a new thread 

Maybe we could use this new thread for conversations about Careers and Higher Education (including funding if there is anything more to be said on that), and leave this thread for discussions on the issues raised in the Panorama documentary.

[Ruby Foo]

7 hours ago, Graceful said:

https://www.roehampton.ac.uk/undergraduate-courses/dance/?gclid=CjwKCAjw69moBhBgEiwAUFCx2HYqOUGLn8eMiaQZu60EkG7ggQx1ZG1mJQH_Xq5R-3XsEIhvHs1qoBoCoIQQAvD_BwE
 

Apparently it’s this university that you do the degree through at Royal and you can finish it with them. 
 

Also I was told that Elmhurst give you the opportunity to finish your degree through distance learning so maybe you can do that with Roehampton? 

I’m afraid that is not true. The degree is through Roehampton but it’s unique to RBS.

In third year, much of the work is done in the studio and therefore you cannot finish it anywhere but RBS.

This is what we we’re told by RBS

[Neverdancedjustamum]

45 minutes ago, Ruby Foo said:

I’m afraid that is not true. The degree is through Roehampton but it’s unique to RBS.

In third year, much of the work is done in the studio and therefore you cannot finish it anywhere but RBS.

This is what we we’re told by RBS

As someone who’s always naturally curious about anything and everything higher education, that sounds spot on. The RBS website is clear that whilst their degree is validated by Roehampton, it’s bespoke to the RBS training. A quick cross reference between the content of the Roehampton and RBS degrees shows a majority of different modules. An FD is most useful if it’s very relevant to the degree you want to do. I’m not sure how easy the first two years of RBS’s programme, and the subsequent FD Certificate, would count towards a full Bachelors degree elsewhere unless it’s a very classical dance BA. 

Edited September 29, 2023 by Neverdancedjustamum

[taxi4ballet]

10 hours ago, Graceful said:

This isn’t true at all. 
You can get 4 years and then you can even do a second degree (from a limited list) and get another 3 years funding. 
Please stop misinforming. 

I'm not misinforming, I'm talking about my dd's personal experience. 

 

I've had enough of this thread now.

Edited September 29, 2023 by taxi4ballet

[Peanut68]

To go a little way back to the original thread topic….

Today I visited a very wonderful friend… a former professional dancer with a long career stretching across many art forms over many decades. 
Very sadly they are longterm in hospital & certainly they are struggling  with (what I think is a recurrence of previous episodes)eating disorders. I do not have full knowledge & I respectfully only mention this as it highlights very real issues affecting dancers today but that could continue to affect them throughout their lives.
We need to do our absolute utmost to educate those teaching & caring for our young folk (us parents included) to have full knowledge of this insidious illness & to know the signs & triggers & also to ensure there is full accountability should their (or our) actions in any way lead to this debilitating lifelong illness/addiction. It may start through body shaming/body dysmorphia/just wanting to be a better dancer or to be liked or to be like a favourite dancer on social media or to be like the ‘teachers favourite’ etc etc or to get attention or as a cry for help… bit as with many things prevention is key as I don’t think there really is a cure… only tools to learn to live without it impacting/recurring. But once it’s been a part of someone then they may be susceptible to repeat episodes.  When things don’t go to plan they can revert to learned behaviour of something they could control - their weight. 
And especially if there have been incidents where weight loss was prompted or applauded it’s a way to feel a sense of success too. 
I am sure professionals would word this far better than I am doing.

I do sense that life threatening issues today are as a result of the historically unhealthy practises & norms that for decades have been accepted as ‘just part of a dancers life’. I am aware of course this is not unique to the dance world but am noting this forum & thread in particular is specifically related to ballet & ballet training. 
I pray that their demons can be once more locked away - but they will forever be a part of them. It has to be imperative that we as a society & as an industry wise up to do our very best to prevent them ever becoming an option to young dancers or indeed anyone. 
I pray my friend can once more enter into a better recovery 
phase & regain their life once more 🙏

[glowlight]

@Peanut68's post highlights that eating disorders do not just effect young dancers. Once someone has an eating disorder it is very often with them for life (as with many other mental illnesses). Wishing your friend a full and quick recovery from this episode.

 

 

[Beezie]

Going back to some former comments.  Students encouraged to get a breast reduction?  …and for dance aesthetics?

 

That is awful.  It treats students like meat, with no recognition for the long term health implications.  If my child, teen, young adult was told such a thing, we’d be running away as fast as we can.  Students shouldn’t accept that.  Parents shouldn’t either.

 

I saw 2 dancers going to Ukraine National Ballet from a European dance school.  Also raised my concern about how badly these young adults want a professional career.  Ukraine is not safe.  These dancers are potentially entering a war zone with some risk to life just to dance professionally.  
 

Is this what we want for our sons and daughters?  Elective cosmetic surgery and risk to life?

[Petit Jete]

Funding - I have no idea if this is helpful or not. 

[Peanut68]

Not sure what your comment is meant to mean - could you please elaborate Petit Jete 

Thanks 

[Petit Jete]

3 minutes ago, Petit Jete said:

Funding - I have no idea if this is helpful or not. 

 

Sorry! That is meant to say that I have no idea if this post is helpful or not! My daughter graduated with a Level 6 Trinity College Diploma after 3 years on a full DADA Award. She performed and worked professionally as a dancer for 8 years and then applied to University to do a BA course and needed full funding. This she got easily through student finance, it was no hassle whatsoever & very straight forward. You can most definitely access student finance if you have already had a DADA award. Hope this is helpful.  

[Petit Jete]

5 minutes ago, Peanut68 said:

Not sure what your comment is meant to mean - could you please elaborate Petit Jete 

Thanks 

 

Sorry, I'm not great with the technology and posting! 

[Kerfuffle]

7 minutes ago, Petit Jete said:

 

Sorry! That is meant to say that I have no idea if this post is helpful or not! My daughter graduated with a Level 6 Trinity College Diploma after 3 years on a full DADA Award. She performed and worked professionally as a dancer for 8 years and then applied to University to do a BA course and needed full funding. This she got easily through student finance, it was no hassle whatsoever & very straight forward. You can most definitely access student finance if you have already had a DADA award. Hope this is helpful.  

This is great to hear! What was the subject she studied? 

[Petit Jete]

1 minute ago, Kerfuffle said:

This is great to hear! What was the subject she studied? 

 

She's been a Midwife now for nearly 2 years and is loving every minute 💗

[Kerfuffle]

8 minutes ago, Petit Jete said:

 

She's been a Midwife now for nearly 2 years and is loving every minute 💗

Fantastic career choice - did she have to do science a levels first or was she accepted with her diploma plus GCSEs? 

[Lifeafterballet]

18 minutes ago, Petit Jete said:

 

Sorry! That is meant to say that I have no idea if this post is helpful or not! My daughter graduated with a Level 6 Trinity College Diploma after 3 years on a full DADA Award. She performed and worked professionally as a dancer for 8 years and then applied to University to do a BA course and needed full funding. This she got easily through student finance, it was no hassle whatsoever & very straight forward. You can most definitely access student finance if you have already had a DADA award. Hope this is helpful.  

My daughter is currently in her final year of her BSc after graduating from a ballet school with 2 A levels and a Level 6 Trinity Diploma in Professional Dance. She was DaDa funded and she also had no trouble accessing a student loan for tuition fees and a maintenance grant 😊

[Petit Jete]

4 minutes ago, Kerfuffle said:

Fantastic career choice - did she have to do science a levels first or was she accepted with her diploma plus GCSEs? 

 

She had no A levels as she went to dance college at 16. Whilst she was working as a dancer she took an 'access to higher education in midwifery' course which was all done on line. Her GCSE results were definitely taken into consideration too by the University. 

[Peanut68]

I do believe subject choice can have sone bearing… certainly funding is possible for midwifery & other medical related degrees I understand…. Lifesfterballet - you mention your DD is doing a Bsc… is this also healthcare related possibly? 
Congrats to your offspring with achieving their post ballet academic studies! 

[Lifeafterballet]

4 minutes ago, Peanut68 said:

I do believe subject choice can have sone bearing… certainly funding is possible for midwifery & other medical related degrees I understand…. Lifesfterballet - you mention your DD is doing a Bsc… is this also healthcare related possibly? 
Congrats to your offspring with achieving their post ballet academic studies! 

BSc in Sport Rehabilitation. It’s not classed as Healthcare and she doesn’t get the £5,000 per year bursary that the Physiotherapy, Nursing etc students get. 
She always talked of wanting to go to University post ballet and Covid just made it happen quicker. It proved to be a god send really and letting ballet go was the best decision she ever made. 

[Peanut68]

Can I please ask if it was DaDa funding for Upper School or a continuation of MDS funding from having been at lower school? My understanding is MDS - even if in US - does not hinder student loan eligibility but DaDa funding might….

And very pleased things have worked out so well for your offspring & congrats to them & good luck on their journey x

Edited September 30, 2023 by Peanut68

[Lifeafterballet]

45 minutes ago, Peanut68 said:

Can I please ask if it was DaDa funding for Upper School or a continuation of MDS funding from having been at lower school? My understanding is MDS - even if in US - does not hinder student loan eligibility but DaDa funding might….

And very pleased things have worked out so well for your offspring & congrats to them & good luck on their journey x

She had an MDS for lower school and DaDa for Upper. I know lots of children who graduated and went on to study at University with funding. The DaDa doesn’t affect eligibility for a funded degree. My belief is that if you have gone on to study the second part of the Trinity Diploma that turns it into a degree then it does. 

[Kerfuffle]

18 minutes ago, Lifeafterballet said:

She had an MDS for lower school and DaDa for Upper. I know lots of children who graduated and went on to study at University with funding. The DaDa doesn’t affect eligibility for a funded degree. My belief is that if you have gone on to study the second part of the Trinity Diploma that turns it into a degree then it does. 

Is that so for any degree or just the ones to do with health, computer science or architecture (from the list)?