Post-transmission: BBC Panorama documentary/investigation into vocational schools

[glowlight]

I am personally pleased to see discussion on this subject, because if we talk about it maybe things will change.

 

It is good to see people posting both positive and negative experiences, that is what discussion is about. It doesn't undermine the horrendous experiences that some students have gone through. If anything it highlights that in some cases this can go on against a backdrop where other students are very happy. If anything this is even more shocking.

 

I hope this will encourage parents with young people training now to have open conversations, to be very aware that bullying happens, that abuse happens, that eating disorders happen and the sooner it is dealt with the better the chances of a happy outcome. 

 

 

 

[Farawaydancer]

I do think it’s important to remember too, that bullying, abuse, inappropriate comments, disregard for mental health etc. all happen in every school across the country. This is not limited in any way to vocational schools (although the higher rate of eating disorders is different)  I work in ‘normal’ mainstream schools and I hear these complaints from parents and students far too often. The difference is that the parents and students speak up, it’s not a secret to be hidden. The number of teachers removed from teaching for misconduct is staggering, and the records are public.  It of course doesn’t make it in any way ok or something to be normalised, but it really isn’t just a dance specific issue (or sport, or other vocational route). 

[taxi4ballet]

17 minutes ago, Farawaydancer said:

I do think it’s important to remember too, that bullying, abuse, inappropriate comments, disregard for mental health etc. all happen in every school across the country. This is not limited in any way to vocational schools (although the higher rate of eating disorders is different)  I work in ‘normal’ mainstream schools and I hear these complaints from parents and students far too often. The difference is that the parents and students speak up, it’s not a secret to be hidden. The number of teachers removed from teaching for misconduct is staggering, and the records are public.  It of course doesn’t make it in any way ok or something to be normalised, but it really isn’t just a dance specific issue (or sport, or other vocational route). 

There's one big difference though, isn't there?

Students at vocational school can be afraid to speak up because they are scared stiff of losing their place at the school and having to kiss goodbye to any chance of a career. Having the courage to complain about a teacher at a vocational school is a whole different kettle of fish compared with complaining about one at the local comprehensive.

[Farawaydancer]

2 minutes ago, taxi4ballet said:

There's one big difference though, isn't there?

Students at vocational school can be afraid to speak up because they are scared stiff of losing their place at the school and having to kiss goodbye to any chance of a career. Having the courage to complain about a teacher at a vocational school is a whole different kettle of fish compared with complaining about one at the local comprehensive.

I agree, really difficult to do. But not impossible to do, and without it nothing will change. In our case, there was no way I was sacrificing my ds’s mental health for a school place and possible future career. 
 

But the point I was making was that it’s naive to think this is an issue that only affects our vocational students. Cruel and inappropriate people are in positions of power throughout our lives, in schools, workplaces, churches, sports clubs…and they need dealing with. 

[Out-the-other-side]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001thyv

 

from 1 hour 4 minutes 

[Geoff]

8 hours ago, LinMM said:

We do want excellence in the Arts but not at any cost. 

At the time the programme was transmitted I - in a different thread - offered some other examples as food for thought. Perhaps it’s ok to repeat them here in case this could be useful: 

 

https://www.balletcoforum.com/topic/28150-should-we-stop-supporting-ballet-after-panorama/?do=findComment&comment=415228

 

[taxi4ballet]

21 hours ago, Farawaydancer said:

I agree, really difficult to do. But not impossible to do, and without it nothing will change. In our case, there was no way I was sacrificing my ds’s mental health for a school place and possible future career. 
 

But the point I was making was that it’s naive to think this is an issue that only affects our vocational students. Cruel and inappropriate people are in positions of power throughout our lives, in schools, workplaces, churches, sports clubs…and they need dealing with. 

Some might not tell their parents though, not if they think that their parents will remove them from the school. It only comes out at crisis point.

[LinMM]

Sorry to harp back to that Chopin piano Competition but if anyone wanted to check this programme out it was a Storyville BBC 4 “Pianoforte”

Behind the scenes at the prestigious Chopin Competition …broadcast originally on December 17th 

It follows several of the young students preparing to take part. 
The young Russian girl was Eva Grevorgyan  who I almost think has such supreme talent and spirit that she survives inspite of her teachers!!! 
Perhaps it’s just me but I thought her teacher in the programme was just a little weird. 

Edited December 26, 2023 by LinMM

[Peanut68]

On 22/12/2023 at 08:02, Jan McNulty said:

 

Can you please provide proof of your statement?

 

 

Please read the title.  After all this is a discussion forum.

 

 

Being investigated by journalists ... says it all really doesn't it.

 

I wasn't bullied at my school but my best friend was (by another pupil).  I was, however, bullied twice in my working life and that has affected me and still makes me upset when I think about it.  Neither of these circumstances mean that that was the norm and there are many positive experiences out there.

 

I should also remind people that solicitors are touting for business, as mentioned upthread, so they should be mindful of what they say in case court cases become involved.

 

@Lifeafterballet has shared personal experiences and for that I think she should be applauded.  It must have been very hard to share deeply personal issues but that really is what members should be doing (if they feel they can) rather than makin sweeping generalisations

[Peanut68]

On 23/12/2023 at 08:01, Jan McNulty said:

cussion of schools and courses This

 

On 23/12/2023 at 08:01, Jan McNulty said:

Discussion of schools and courses This may lead to the expression of strong opinions, both positive and negative when experiences and views have understandably differed. Against that background, the general Acceptable Use Policy Conditions continue to apply but, as regards schools and courses, additional parameters are added.
    •    Posts about schools or courses must report personal experiences only (posted by the student, the student’s parent/guardian or the student’s teacher with permission).
    •    They must not include second-hand information or innuendo e.g. claiming to speak on someone else’s behalf, for “many people”, for “the majority of students” and so forth.
    •    Nothing should be included that could be construed as defamatory in any way and which could therefore lead to legal ramifications for the Forum and members.

I am sure I am perhaps not the only person who on this thread or others have had comments blocked as they appeared to not adhere to rules… however, it is very difficult to share personal experiences of offspring when details of those very experiences could identify them explicitly - particularly as there could be elements of abuse and teacher/school bad practise unique to their ‘story’ that their dancing peers of parents or indeed the teachers/schools themselves could recognise & thus know who’s parent is ‘speaking out’. And this in turn is a great example of the air of fear that can follow one even after leaving a school. Perhaps if said offspring had left the whole ballet world behind I would be emboldened to speak up with precise details as I know them to be factual but there is still that shameful fear that those who said they could ‘make them’ & open doors to a career could still - as the unsaid but very much omnipresent subtext at the time implied - break them. So, for the sake of not jeopardising their potential career I have attempted to keep unidentifiable but it does not mean my comments are any less true, any less worthy of sharing. I feel sad that I’m unable to join openly those who can ‘stand up & be counted’ & even more sad that on a ‘safe space’ forum like this I am still unable to share anonymously. (I find it difficult to understand how if one states it’s from a true personal direct experience it is not permissible… surely if names of schools/individuals are withheld then nothing litigious befalls the forum?) 

Silence is the enemy of justice but my experience of whistle blowing ended with the old adage of ‘shoot the messenger’ 
And again here I sadly feel silenced & perhaps others may likewise feel unable to share. And this perpetuates the problem & perhaps hides the true volume of experiences that would be shared? I applaud those brave individuals openly sharing with names & details that can be fact checked…. I note mostly they seem to be talking post leaving the industry….I’d be interested how many more could echo their stories from their own experiences but who don’t because they are still within the dance world & thus feel it safer to stay silent. 

[Peanut68]

On 24/12/2023 at 13:44, taxi4ballet said:

Some might not tell their parents though, not if they think that their parents will remove them from the school. It only comes out at crisis point.

Exactly this. Plus the ace card of schools to not continue funding. Pupils are very much aware of this & are even advised by school employees that this could be an outcome of a situation. This is fact from personal experience. 

[Ruby Foo]

8 hours ago, Peanut68 said:

 

I am sure I am perhaps not the only person who on this thread or others have had comments blocked as they appeared to not adhere to rules… however, it is very difficult to share personal experiences of offspring when details of those very experiences could identify them explicitly - particularly as there could be elements of abuse and teacher/school bad practise unique to their ‘story’ that their dancing peers of parents or indeed the teachers/schools themselves could recognise & thus know who’s parent is ‘speaking out’. And this in turn is a great example of the air of fear that can follow one even after leaving a school. Perhaps if said offspring had left the whole ballet world behind I would be emboldened to speak up with precise details as I know them to be factual but there is still that shameful fear that those who said they could ‘make them’ & open doors to a career could still - as the unsaid but very much omnipresent subtext at the time implied - break them. So, for the sake of not jeopardising their potential career I have attempted to keep unidentifiable but it does not mean my comments are any less true, any less worthy of sharing. I feel sad that I’m unable to join openly those who can ‘stand up & be counted’ & even more sad that on a ‘safe space’ forum like this I am still unable to share anonymously. (I find it difficult to understand how if one states it’s from a true personal direct experience it is not permissible… surely if names of schools/individuals are withheld then nothing litigious befalls the forum?) 

Silence is the enemy of justice but my experience of whistle blowing ended with the old adage of ‘shoot the messenger’ 
And again here I sadly feel silenced & perhaps others may likewise feel unable to share. And this perpetuates the problem & perhaps hides the true volume of experiences that would be shared? I applaud those brave individuals openly sharing with names & details that can be fact checked…. I note mostly they seem to be talking post leaving the industry….I’d be interested how many more could echo their stories from their own experiences but who don’t because they are still within the dance world & thus feel it safer to stay silent. 

So very true. I can only post here with regards to my daughters experiences because she has changed direction and because those who had power over her are no longer relevant. That’s quite a statement after years of having to watch what was happening and remain silent. The Ballet World is a small one, everyone is linked and that carries over long past school and into auditions and Companies. Everyone who knew her will easily be able to recognise her story from what I’ve written here and even though she’s left there’s still a terrible feeling of fear in every single post I’ve written accompanied by sleepless nights and anxiety. I’ve only done it because I know this topic needs to be seen and heard and discussed and changed. She was unable to speak on the Panorama programme because that was a giant step too far at this stage.

[Jan McNulty]

17 hours ago, Peanut68 said:

 

I am sure I am perhaps not the only person who on this thread or others have had comments blocked as they appeared to not adhere to rules… however, it is very difficult to share personal experiences of offspring when details of those very experiences could identify them explicitly - particularly as there could be elements of abuse and teacher/school bad practise unique to their ‘story’ that their dancing peers of parents or indeed the teachers/schools themselves could recognise & thus know who’s parent is ‘speaking out’. And this in turn is a great example of the air of fear that can follow one even after leaving a school. Perhaps if said offspring had left the whole ballet world behind I would be emboldened to speak up with precise details as I know them to be factual but there is still that shameful fear that those who said they could ‘make them’ & open doors to a career could still - as the unsaid but very much omnipresent subtext at the time implied - break them. So, for the sake of not jeopardising their potential career I have attempted to keep unidentifiable but it does not mean my comments are any less true, any less worthy of sharing. I feel sad that I’m unable to join openly those who can ‘stand up & be counted’ & even more sad that on a ‘safe space’ forum like this I am still unable to share anonymously. (I find it difficult to understand how if one states it’s from a true personal direct experience it is not permissible… surely if names of schools/individuals are withheld then nothing litigious befalls the forum?) 

Silence is the enemy of justice but my experience of whistle blowing ended with the old adage of ‘shoot the messenger’ 
And again here I sadly feel silenced & perhaps others may likewise feel unable to share. And this perpetuates the problem & perhaps hides the true volume of experiences that would be shared? I applaud those brave individuals openly sharing with names & details that can be fact checked…. I note mostly they seem to be talking post leaving the industry….I’d be interested how many more could echo their stories from their own experiences but who don’t because they are still within the dance world & thus feel it safer to stay silent. 

 

The Acceptably Use Policy is there for a reason and that is why it needs to be adhered to.

 

"(I find it difficult to understand how if one states it’s from a true personal direct experience it is not permissible… surely if names of schools/individuals are withheld then nothing litigious befalls the forum?)" The AUP states:

 

    •    Posts about schools or courses must report personal experiences only (posted by the student, the student’s parent/guardian or the student’s teacher with permission).

 

If you are posting about your own or your DC's own experience then that is permissible so I am not sure what you mean by this statement.

 

"on a ‘safe space’ forum like this" - it should be borne in mind that the Forum can be read by anyone whether members or not.  You have to be a member to post but not to read.

 

If you wish to describe something you have seen then please bear in mind that the individual you are talking about may not actually want that experience to be made public.  I have been recently affected by this as an individual who lives near me has recently been posting deeply personal information about me through my neighbours' doors.

 

 

 

 

[Peanut68]

I have only ever referred to experiences of my own, my dancing offspring & our family. Where I may have used ambiguous terminology this was only intended to protect offspring & to not name names as they would not wish that. As Ruby Foo states for her offspring - step too far at this point though one maybe that will be taken in the future. 

[Peony]

I think as an audience member it’s quite uncomfortable to truly absorb some of these stories, it can be easier to stay in a state of denial. I can see that many female dancers are probably controlling  their weight and are slimmer than they should be naturally, I can see that some have gone past that point and are probably unwell, I can see the deformed feet, I hear and see the criticism of dancers being too ‘fat’ or ‘too muscular’. And these are the ones who have ‘made it’ and should be the most suitable for the job! Honestly I’m becoming increasingly uncomfortable with supporting ballet at all but that’s probably necessary to push us to drive the change that is necessary

[DVDfan]

I agree with Peony, it is uncomfortable to know that dancers are often in pain while they perform, and that some struggle with mental health problems as a result of the way they have been trained. As for the numbers of students damaged and then disgarded by the system, it's horrifying. 

I think what we as an audience can do is to speak out, make it clear that we want to see technique, musicality, artistry, not bodies. Stop (not that anyone on  this forum does) commenting negatively on appearance. I've given up looking at the comments on YouTube because so many of them are negative or vulgar comments about the dancer's anatomy. Don't make personal remarks is a good rule, IMO.

[Geoff]

On 23/12/2023 at 18:11, Geoff said:

At the time the programme was transmitted I - in a different thread - offered some other examples as food for thought. Perhaps it’s ok to repeat them here in case this could be useful: 

 

https://www.balletcoforum.com/topic/28150-should-we-stop-supporting-ballet-after-panorama/?do=findComment&comment=415228

 

And as a PS, what about bullfighting?

[Out-the-other-side]

https://www.leighday.co.uk/news/blog/2023-blogs/abuse-in-ballet-update/

 

Quote: my clients and I are requesting the Department for Culture, Media and Sport to conduct an inquiry into allegations of body shaming and other abuse in ballet.

 

 

[Peanut68]

And another area to look at is how the MDS/DaDa money is being spent. Are the taxpayers getting value for money & ROI? Also to know how it is potentially used as a bargaining chip to get/lose students in schools - again, speaking from my family’s own personal experience here. 

[taxi4ballet]

13 hours ago, Peanut68 said:

And another area to look at is how the MDS/DaDa money is being spent. Are the taxpayers getting value for money & ROI? Also to know how it is potentially used as a bargaining chip to get/lose students in schools - again, speaking from my family’s own personal experience here. 

I agree about the funding issue. Someone in authority is eventually going to look at it and think 'we are paying all this money out to pay for this training, and hardly any of them ever finish training and get industry jobs'. They will then look at the ballet companies and see that there is a distinct pattern in recruiting dancers from overseas to fill vacancies. They will then wonder whether the taxpayer is getting value for money.

 

[DVDfan]

About bullfighting, personally I object in a way that I don't object to boxing, because animals have no choice. There is no way of bullfighting that doesn't involve abuse of the animals, in my opinion. 

On the other hand, ballet students are volunteers (I hope!), have agency to move away from abusive schools (ought to have, I realise that there are difficulties particularly around funding), and can change track completely. Bulls don't have these options, even in theory.

And then, there are ways of training that need not involve bullying and body shaming. A student could have a happy time doing something they love, learn loads of portable skills and if they don't find a career in dance, be well set up to pursue a different profession, and leave looking back on their time at the school with happy memories.

 

[Guest oncnp]

Another opinion

 

Matthew Paluch considers ballet dreams vs reality (gramilano.com)

[Ruby Foo]

1 hour ago, oncnp said:

Another opinion

 

Matthew Paluch considers ballet dreams vs reality (gramilano.com)

 Thank you for posting. So true, so sad.

[Ruby Foo]

5 minutes ago, Ruby Foo said:

 Thank you for posting. So true, so sad.

 
I do think it’s a little more complex than how it’s portrayed here though. Sometimes students are accepted because there’s nothing more promising -  very true. But some of these do surprise and go on to have fulfilling careers if they are given support and not stripped of their confidence and self esteem early on in the process.

[Roberta]

My goodness though, so much reality in that.

 

It's all a very long way from five bob in the church / village hall on Saturday morning  for ballet, tap ballroom and modern stage, with Auntie Nelly (yes I knew an Aunty Nelly who taught dance) or Miss Dora, which was what a great deal of dance teaching used to be. Very few even considered a career, it was fun, a show every year, medal tests, a few grades, and then the real world of work hit. The lucky few went on, few ever made a ballet company or west end show,  but panto, cruise ships, summer shows at seaside resorts,  and all the rest, gainful employment. 

 

Of course there were professional studios, but in reality small in number. 

 

It's a huge business now is dance teaching, and ever expanding, with ex pros needing work after retirement, and the  unending, expanding  stream of those taking full time teaching courses too. In order to gain a teaching reputation, students need to be seen to be achieving, to be 'sent on'.

 

And yet, jobs are still not in abundant supply, would-be employers can pick and choose, everything is much more international, and it is difficult for aspiring dancers to see they aren't going to make the grade no matter how nurtured.  A fortune has been spent, and parents want to see a return. 

 

Careers can be made that are dance related if a young person has the gumption and drive, but again, that's often a case of luck rather than planning. (I know of one person who took her Grade three ballet as a young  adult and left what she was doing to go on to make a hugely successful career in the dance world, not dancing,  but possibly that isn't something that would happen now either. (If she reads this she knows who she is...) 

 

I have few answers, I simply see the reality, and that piece covers so much of it. 

 

Edited January 14 by Roberta

[Peanut68]

Interesting read from the link shared above. Honest, brutal but also - I felt - a little one sided. The suggestion was pretty much that those failing to successfully gain a dance career were most likely those who were never going to succeed anyhow & should've much sooner left the training path anyhow. That may well be the reality in lots of cases, & yes, perhaps it is right to shine a light on the number of training places & schools versus the actual number of jobs in the sector.

But please let's not assume that 'failure' is there from the start for certain pupils. This takes away any accountability to the schools/teachers. Lets face it, some may well 'fail' or leave their path to a potential dance career due to bad teaching not helping them fulfill their talent or could lead to a career limiting injury, eating disorders (we all know that often these are begun in a desire to please a teacher/s by becoming the 'shape' they want) &/or mental health issues.Poor pastoral care (from institutions & also from us parents) can similarly lead to these same problems.

Yes, many train to high standard in many areas (music/sports/dance/science) all with early dreams of top careers/winning/stardom/discovering a cure for cancer etc etc. And yes, if only ever the very top percentage get an opportunity to progress through training paths many would be saved heartbreak, many families would save £1000's & many would maybe find a happier or more achievable goal sooner. But we'd potentially miss out on those maverick stories where someone succeeds against all the odds! And worse, the current 'norm' would be ever perpetuated in the ballet world. so absolutely Groundhog Day. We cannot protect our offspring from failure, we cannot protect them from harsh realities of selection. Yes, we (both parents & the industry) can be kind & realistic & not just keep on paying/taking the money etc. But we shouldn't see it as all about that money either. We do owe it to young folk to provide opportunities where we can & for those taken up to be safe & offer what is promised & be value for money. 

Maybe the dialogue should not just be 'reduce the numbers training' to 'increase the number of jobs' & that is down to all of us....how many send their kids to those early weekly dance classes? Yet how many then regularly go (& also take those same kids) to watch live dance performances? It's not about watching those Instagram 'stars' its about sharing the moment as it happens, being moved by the music & artistry of the performers. Feeling the magic & returning! This in turn will grow demand & thus prices can reduce....etc etc etc.... 

[Ruby Foo]

1 hour ago, Roberta said:

My goodness though, so much reality in that.

 

It's all a very long way from five bob in the church / village hall on Saturday morning  for ballet, tap ballroom and modern stage, with Auntie Nelly (yes I knew an Aunty Nelly who taught dance) or Miss Dora, which was what a great deal of dance teaching used to be. Very few even considered a career, it was fun, a show every year, medal tests, a few grades, and then the real world of work hit. The lucky few went on, few ever made a ballet company or west end show,  but panto, cruise ships, summer shows at seaside resorts,  and all the rest, gainful employment. 

 

Of course there were professional studios, but in reality small in number. 

 

It's a huge business now is dance teaching, and ever expanding, with ex pros needing work after retirement, and the  unending, expanding  stream of those taking full time teaching courses too. In order to gain a teaching reputation, students need to be seen to be achieving, to be 'sent on'.

 

And yet, jobs are still not in abundant supply, would-be employers can pick and choose, everything is much more international, and it is difficult for aspiring dancers to see they aren't going to make the grade no matter how nurtured.  A fortune has been spent, and parents want to see a return. 

 

Careers can be made that are dance related if a young person has the gumption and drive, but again, that's often a case of luck rather than planning. (I know of one person who took her Grade three ballet as a young  adult and left what she was doing to go on to make a hugely successful career in the dance world, not dancing,  but possibly that isn't something that would happen now either. (If she reads this she knows who she is...) 

 

I have few answers, I simply see the reality, and that piece covers so much of it. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Peanut68 said:

Interesting read from the link shared above. Honest, brutal but also - I felt - a little one sided. The suggestion was pretty much that those failing to successfully gain a dance career were most likely those who were never going to succeed anyhow & should've much sooner left the training path anyhow. That may well be the reality in lots of cases, & yes, perhaps it is right to shine a light on the number of training places & schools versus the actual number of jobs in the sector.

But please let's not assume that 'failure' is there from the start for certain pupils. This takes away any accountability to the schools/teachers. Lets face it, some may well 'fail' or leave their path to a potential dance career due to bad teaching not helping them fulfill their talent or could lead to a career limiting injury, eating disorders (we all know that often these are begun in a desire to please a teacher/s by becoming the 'shape' they want) &/or mental health issues.Poor pastoral care (from institutions & also from us parents) can similarly lead to these same problems.

Yes, many train to high standard in many areas (music/sports/dance/science) all with early dreams of top careers/winning/stardom/discovering a cure for cancer etc etc. And yes, if only ever the very top percentage get an opportunity to progress through training paths many would be saved heartbreak, many families would save £1000's & many would maybe find a happier or more achievable goal sooner. But we'd potentially miss out on those maverick stories where someone succeeds against all the odds! And worse, the current 'norm' would be ever perpetuated in the ballet world. so absolutely Groundhog Day. We cannot protect our offspring from failure, we cannot protect them from harsh realities of selection. Yes, we (both parents & the industry) can be kind & realistic & not just keep on paying/taking the money etc. But we shouldn't see it as all about that money either. We do owe it to young folk to provide opportunities where we can & for those taken up to be safe & offer what is promised & be value for money. 

Maybe the dialogue should not just be 'reduce the numbers training' to 'increase the number of jobs' & that is down to all of us....how many send their kids to those early weekly dance classes? Yet how many then regularly go (& also take those same kids) to watch live dance performances? It's not about watching those Instagram 'stars' its about sharing the moment as it happens, being moved by the music & artistry of the performers. Feeling the magic & returning! This in turn will grow demand & thus prices can reduce....etc etc etc.... 

 
Thank you for these posts guys. 
I am definitely guilty of finding excuses not to go to the theatre - who will look after the dogs? There’s a train strike. Too expensive, where to park? etc etc. So much easier to get your child occupied for an hour in a Ballet Lesson. I am part of this problem and thank you for reminding me.

What an inspiring story Roberta re the grade 3 student!  Maybe accounts like these are rare but they give us hope.

 

[Roberta]

5 minutes ago, Ruby Foo said:

What an inspiring story Roberta re the grade 3 student!  Maybe accounts like these are rare but they give us hope.

 

If I told you her name you'd be astonished. I'm actually astonished at what she achieved.  One year of Saturday ballet with a good teacher launched her life in dance, with a great deal of hard work after.   Good for her and really, a story of following your dream. It can't have been easy and she wasn't wealthy or from a wealthy background. 

 

She could equally have landed flat on her face of course, but sheer determination won through. 

 

The problem is many have ambitions to be Odette or Siegfried who will never make it. Hard to accept. 

 

Many who don't make it train to teach, and that's fine, ballet / dance lessons are a worthwhile activity in their own right, they give enjoyment and wider life skills, as well as making an informed audience, but is this perpetuating the supply / disappointment  problem?  

 

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[theunderdog]

On 14/01/2024 at 16:02, Roberta said:

My goodness though, so much reality in that.

 

It's all a very long way from five bob in the church / village hall on Saturday morning  for ballet, tap ballroom and modern stage, with Auntie Nelly (yes I knew an Aunty Nelly who taught dance) or Miss Dora, which was what a great deal of dance teaching used to be. Very few even considered a career, it was fun, a show every year, medal tests, a few grades, and then the real world of work hit. The lucky few went on, few ever made a ballet company or west end show,  but panto, cruise ships, summer shows at seaside resorts,  and all the rest, gainful employment. 

 

Of course there were professional studios, but in reality small in number. 

 

It's a huge business now is dance teaching, and ever expanding, with ex pros needing work after retirement, and the  unending, expanding  stream of those taking full time teaching courses too. In order to gain a teaching reputation, students need to be seen to be achieving, to be 'sent on'.

 

And yet, jobs are still not in abundant supply, would-be employers can pick and choose, everything is much more international, and it is difficult for aspiring dancers to see they aren't going to make the grade no matter how nurtured.  A fortune has been spent, and parents want to see a return. 

 

Careers can be made that are dance related if a young person has the gumption and drive, but again, that's often a case of luck rather than planning. (I know of one person who took her Grade three ballet as a young  adult and left what she was doing to go on to make a hugely successful career in the dance world, not dancing,  but possibly that isn't something that would happen now either. (If she reads this she knows who she is...) 

 

I have few answers, I simply see the reality, and that piece covers so much of it. 

 

And yet some local schools are also part of the problem......

 

At 3 years old my daughter was told she had the physique the RBS would look for (rose tinted spectacles and drawn right in!)

 

At 11 she was screamed at for 4 hours during a video audition (and made to really cry) to "just get it right" for a top school associate place, which she got and her local teacher told her not to lose it.... "because I got you that place, that place is mine" also told at that same age not to apply for schools (there was another the teacher had their eye on then!).

 

Got told, after the first acceptance to YBSS "its a fluke, you wont get it again" been to 4 other sessions since (because, as a family, we are resilient and didn't listen and stick fingers up to those who say we can't!)

 

Got told, after getting a distinction in an exam, it wasnt good enough because she dropped a mark to another girl!!

 

We have since left that school and come upon others and private teachers who champion their students and will support my daughter to eternity but, how many families end up on our journey they cant escape from?!.....

 

So, to say it is just the "TOP schools" fault I dont agree, this is an inherent problem, spawned from audiences that pay to see the lithe dancers, ignoring what they go through to be where they are because it is "art" right (many a times I've seen lithe dancers out back chugging a fag instead of eating during an interval -fact!), right back to local schools, where teachers were possibly also treated badly (an opinion not fact, sorry Jan, but my experience gives me this opinion) and like breeds like right!?

 

We talk safe guarding all the time. OSFTED (they are not 100% as we know!) look at safeguarding in teaching envs but, what do we have in the ballet world to check these local dance schools? (reputed plumbers and electricians have 'check a trade', again, in the local ballet world what do we have?).

 

If you try to call out local schools, the red tape is beyond hideous (personal experience, fact!), easier to walk away!

 

So, IMO (not fact) the whole ballet culture needs a shake up, from the ground up not just at the end of the journey and not just at "private ballet school" level....

 

BTW, my daughter is thriving, it is a joy to see her ballet journey unfold, she is strong and determined and she loves the art (as do we) but when she falls she will be caught and plan B is as secure as plan A

 

Hug each other, laugh, but most of all be the wall in front of them and the safety net to catch them and take the rose spectacles off

[glowlight]

16 hours ago, theunderdog said:

Hug each other, laugh, but most of all be the wall in front of them and the safety net to catch them and take the rose spectacles off

Brilliantly put.

[DVDfan]

Can I suggest that, given that discussion of certain schools has to be suspended for the time being, that the Mods pin a thread titled something like " Who to contact if you have concerns about a school"? I know this information is on one of the existing pinned threads, but I think it might be helpful to have it up separately.

 

I'd also like to take the opportunity to thank the Mods for their work in running this very informative forum.