Starting pointe at 9yo

[taxi4ballet]

One of the issues of course is that young dancers pretty much everywhere else in the world go on pointe at a younger age and are pushed far harder than their British counterparts. When AD's and others from British vocational schools attend international competitions such as YAGP and see kids of 13/14 doing full variations on pointe (and doing them very well) it does make it harder for students trained in the UK to be accepted for vocational training. They simply can't compete in an audition with international students who are already known to the panel.

 

So we are caught between a rock and a hard place. 

[Beezie]

I think the cultures that push young dancers faster, also see them burn-out faster.  …not to mention, much higher chance of injury early in a career.

 

I’ve heard at least one professional suggest that the systems that create these child protégées may not be setting the children up for long careers.  (Long being relative, of course, in ballet.)

[NJH]

6 hours ago, Beezie said:

I think the cultures that push young dancers faster, also see them burn-out faster.  …not to mention, much higher chance of injury early in a career.

 

I’ve heard at least one professional suggest that the systems that create these child protégées may not be setting the children up for long careers.  (Long being relative, of course, in ballet.)

that said plenty of  Dancers  dancing  into their 40s  as principals now  (Pippa Moore was 44 or 45 when she  retired as A premier Dancer with Northern , Hannah Bateman was  40 + when  lockdown 1 cut her  final season with Northern off ... )   then  you've got   the Player/Manager  dancers like Tamara Rojo (ENB) and Rae Piper (Chantry)  in their 40s  and   then those who continue ( or restart ) to guest   later still  e.g. Shannon Parker /Lilly ...

 but equally  we've seen a number of the phenoms fade from view very quickly, often with suggestion that they could not / would not  integrate into a company   if they got a contract on the strength of competition results / 'fisnishing school'  place at at Upper school  ... 

Edited January 6, 2022 by NJH

[Dance*is*life]

"but equally  we've seen a number of the phenoms fade from view very quickly, often with suggestion that they could not / would not  integrate into a company   if they got a contract on the strength of competition results / 'fisnishing school'  place at at Upper school  ... "

 

I agree NJH.  When a student has a huge internet following and is used to being a solo star it is hard to blend into the corps, where every movement has to match perfectly with the other dancers.  Must be such a hard pill to swallow!   I also get the point about UK trained dancers seeming to fall behind.  I was rather astonished at the number of foreign students currently studying at RBS. Don't know if anyone else listened to the RBS Advent calendar film of Christmas greetings in a huge variety of languages from their senior students, but it made me wonder if there are actually any British dancers in the school!  Hope someone can reassure me on that!

[taxi4ballet]

1 hour ago, Dance*is*life said:

I also get the point about UK trained dancers seeming to fall behind.  I was rather astonished at the number of foreign students currently studying at RBS. Don't know if anyone else listened to the RBS Advent calendar film of Christmas greetings in a huge variety of languages from their senior students, but it made me wonder if there are actually any British dancers in the school!  Hope someone can reassure me on that!

It is no different at ENBS either. This year, four out of their six preliminary auditions are being held overseas, plus the preliminary video auditions are for overseas candidates only as well. There are two UK auditions. 

[LinMM]

Maybe only overseas students parents can afford the fees these days!!  Though of course some are given scholarships still. 
Where I live in Brighton there’s a big public school called Roedean ....rather austere imposing building set up on a hill

overlooking the sea to the East of main centre.....I thought it was some sort of Reform school when I first moved here because of its austerity ....Anyway these days the school has more pupils from overseas studying there and I’m assuming this is because those parents can afford the school fees more? I haven’t got a problem with it just trying to explain how it is. 
The school is much nicer and cosier inside than it looks from the outside luckily! 
Also the school does do some very welcome local outreach work. 

 

 

 

[drdance]

On 06/01/2022 at 12:36, NJH said:

that said plenty of  Dancers  dancing  into their 40s  as principals now  (Pippa Moore was 44 or 45 when she  retired as A premier Dancer with Northern , Hannah Bateman was  40 + when  lockdown 1 cut her  final season with Northern off ... )   then  you've got   the Player/Manager  dancers like Tamara Rojo (ENB) and Rae Piper (Chantry)  in their 40s  and   then those who continue ( or restart ) to guest   later still  e.g. Shannon Parker /Lilly ...

 but equally  we've seen a number of the phenoms fade from view very quickly, often with suggestion that they could not / would not  integrate into a company   if they got a contract on the strength of competition results / 'fisnishing school'  place at at Upper school  ... 

 

I don't know how many you deem 'plenty' but considering the thousands and thousands (if not millions) of children who are currently performing / training at advanced level across the world, (many at levels way too advanced for their physical and emotional maturity) I wonder what happened to all the others.... There seems to be a trend that is steamroller-ing on despite dance science, dance medicine, child protection advocates trying their best to stop it. The phrase "won't somebody please think of the children?!" springs to mind.

 

For every rare dancer still dancing into their 40's (we don't know how much pain or distress they are in, lets remember) there are literally hundreds of thousands of other people who have been harmed, either physically or mentally, by the exact same process. How many more dancers would have happier, healthier careers if the process was different? Or do we simply accept that the career of a professional dancer is a 'crash and burn', young persons realm? 

[Ruby Foo]

On 06/01/2022 at 13:22, Dance*is*life said:

"but equally  we've seen a number of the phenoms fade from view very quickly, often with suggestion that they could not / would not  integrate into a company   if they got a contract on the strength of competition results / 'fisnishing school'  place at at Upper school  ... "

 

I agree NJH.  When a student has a huge internet following and is used to being a solo star it is hard to blend into the corps, where every movement has to match perfectly with the other dancers.  Must be such a hard pill to swallow!   I also get the point about UK trained dancers seeming to fall behind.  I was rather astonished at the number of foreign students currently studying at RBS. Don't know if anyone else listened to the RBS Advent calendar film of Christmas greetings in a huge variety of languages from their senior students, but it made me wonder if there are actually any British dancers in the school!  Hope someone can reassure me on that!

 
You’re right that there are lots of internationals at upper school but also lots of British students too. Perhaps more than ever before.

[Pups_mum]

4 hours ago, drdance said:

 

I don't know how many you deem 'plenty' but considering the thousands and thousands (if not millions) of children who are currently performing / training at advanced level across the world, (many at levels way too advanced for their physical and emotional maturity) I wonder what happened to all the others.... There seems to be a trend that is steamroller-ing on despite dance science, dance medicine, child protection advocates trying their best to stop it. The phrase "won't somebody please think of the children?!" springs to mind.

 

For every rare dancer still dancing into their 40's (we don't know how much pain or distress they are in, lets remember) there are literally hundreds of thousands of other people who have been harmed, either physically or mentally, by the exact same process. How many more dancers would have happier, healthier careers if the process was different? Or do we simply accept that the career of a professional dancer is a 'crash and burn', young persons realm? 

I quite agree. There seems to be a culture of dispensibility in dance, and it's perhaps more marked in some other cultures than in this country. (It's not just dance of course, I've certainly observed the same in sport though I think it's getting less in the sports I'm involved in.) But there are definite vibes of "if they break we can just throw them out and get another one" and an acceptance that there will be a lot who fall by the wayside but that's ok, as long as enough of a suitable "product" come out at the end. Likewise we might hear things along the lines of "yes I suffered but it was worth it to get where I am" from those who succeeded, but we very rarely hear the stories of those who didn't "make it". Do they think it was worth it? What long term physical and psychological damage have they sustained? We need to remember that these are real young people and to hear their voices. Otherise nothing will change. 

[NJH]

17 hours ago, Pups_mum said:

I quite agree. There seems to be a culture of dispensibility in dance, and it's perhaps more marked in some other cultures than in this country. (It's not just dance of course, I've certainly observed the same in sport though I think it's getting less in the sports I'm involved in.) But there are definite vibes of "if they break we can just throw them out and get another one" and an acceptance that there will be a lot who fall by the wayside but that's ok, as long as enough of a suitable "product" come out at the end. Likewise we might hear things along the lines of "yes I suffered but it was worth it to get where I am" from those who succeeded, but we very rarely hear the stories of those who didn't "make it". Do they think it was worth it? What long term physical and psychological damage have they sustained? We need to remember that these are real young people and to hear their voices. Otherise nothing will change. 

dispensibility  is a   culture that pervades the UK   across all businesses / industries and Sectors  - 

in Sports and the arts it's driven by  there being  an excess of supply  combined with the encouragement of bullying anm lobbing  by  organisational practices. 

In other sectors  it's bullying / mobbing that  leads it , because  being a bully as a Manager  is often viewed as 'taking decisive action' and 'protecting the public '   this is  further  reinforced by shockingly poor 'Investigations' by  regulators  and a lack of  meaningful routes to bring the bullies or other  abuse perpetrators to account   ....

[Raquelle]

Reading all these comments with interest. My DD is 11.5 years, dances in year 7 in a vocational school and hasn't started on pointe. They are very careful with their young bodies and they are doing lots of pre pointe work and strengthening and conditioning....I must admit that when I see children the same age from around the world doing several pirouettes on pointe it does sometimes feel a bit like she is already years behind her counterparts in other countries...having said that, I'm glad they're protecting the long term health of my daughter. 

[Millicent]

That's good to hear. 

 

It's so hard not to compare with others isn't it? Especially as some of these countries train their young dancers so intensively at a young age. But if you look at e.g. what RBS does with their JAs it's very very simple. You would think that if there was evidence that more intensive training at a younger age is better in the long run then that's what the reputatable schools in the UK would be doing, but they're not. 

[Whiteduvet]

They’re not and that’s laudable but then you look at the girls who are still training vocationally higher up the schools and the number of British children who have been trained slowly often decreases drastically. 

[taxi4ballet]

7 hours ago, NJH said:

dispensibility  is a   culture that pervades the UK   across all businesses / industries and Sectors  - 

in Sports and the arts it's driven by  there being  an excess of supply  combined with the encouragement of bullying anm lobbing  by  organisational practices. 

In other sectors  it's bullying / mobbing that  leads it , because  being a bully as a Manager  is often viewed as 'taking decisive action' and 'protecting the public '   this is  further  reinforced by shockingly poor 'Investigations' by  regulators  and a lack of  meaningful routes to bring the bullies or other  abuse perpetrators to account   ....

Well yes... but in other sectors you will find that the victims are adults, not children under 18.

[taxi4ballet]

4 hours ago, Millicent said:

That's good to hear. 

 

It's so hard not to compare with others isn't it? Especially as some of these countries train their young dancers so intensively at a young age. But if you look at e.g. what RBS does with their JAs it's very very simple. You would think that if there was evidence that more intensive training at a younger age is better in the long run then that's what the reputatable schools in the UK would be doing, but they're not. 

How many of those JA's make into RBS upper school though?

 

And I can't help wondering whether upper school finals will clash with the Prix de Lausanne finals again... no prizes for guessing which of those the AD will be attending

Edited January 8, 2022 by taxi4ballet

[Kate_N]

20 hours ago, Millicent said:

But if you look at e.g. what RBS does with their JAs it's very very simple. You would think that if there was evidence that more intensive training at a younger age is better in the long run then that's what the reputatable schools in the UK would be doing, but they're not. 

 

And that slow steady honing of perfect technique through very simple training in the early stages is very valued in British dancers around the world.

[Peony]

On 08/01/2022 at 15:07, Whiteduvet said:

They’re not and that’s laudable but then you look at the girls who are still training vocationally higher up the schools and the number of British children who have been trained slowly often decreases drastically. 

Given the small amount of world class schools and the amount of people applying from across the world I’m not sure you’d expect the majority to be British? just based on probabilities and numbers of applicants? If you have a school that re-assesses and takes the ‘best’ at 16 you’d expect them to be international? Some schools do prioritise their own style and the students who have that style embedded but RB doesn’t really do that currently. Not sure which approach is best, RB did at one stage prioritise certain nationalities but times were different

[Whiteduvet]

But if those international students (trained differently) are chosen over British ones then does it suggest a problem with British training? And if a (any) school doesn’t prioritise its own lower school pupils and style then what is the purpose of the lower school in the first place? 

 

[Peony]

24 minutes ago, Whiteduvet said:

But if those international students (trained differently) are chosen over British ones then does it suggest a problem with British training? And if a (any) school doesn’t prioritise its own lower school pupils and style then what is the purpose of the lower school in the first place? 

 

The purpose would be to train to a high enough standard to audition for 16 plus training. on an equal footing. And there are still a reasonable number of their own students who continue into upper school. Whether the training is appropriate isn’t something I can comment on but I don’t think any assumptions can be made on numbers alone. If a school has an international presence and accepts from everywhere I just don’t think you’d expect the majority to come from one small country. Especially as there is less of a language barrier than for some other schools. 
so no I’m not sure it is definitely an issue with training, it’s the fact that they have a much larger pool of dancers to choose from (which will include many attributes, not just technique). British trained dancers are also being selected for upper schools abroad. I think it’s just more of a global society than previously
 

[Blue Box Ballet]

When considering ‘fast tracking’ training - ie starting pointe work on the younger side of agreed recommendations, the subjects of early specialisation and burnout come to mind. 
 

https://www.dancemagazine.com/young-dancers-specialization/

https://www.royalballetschool.org.uk/2019/10/31/ballet-training-how-much-is-enough/

 

https://www.onedanceuk.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/DUK-Info-Sheet-14-–-Burnout-in-Dance.pdf

 

 

[drdance]

I just read this with interest - certainly doesn’t seem to help with the “safe dance practice” message… 

 

https://www.balletnews.co.uk/from-student-to-star-hanna-park-the-royal-ballet/?utm_campaign=shareaholic&utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=socialnetwork&fbclid=IwAR0E-SyhBpsZf0CcrbGjeGOHocq6i55Y9-N2TPHv1bjO3wpj503PwEZcRfs

[Blue Box Ballet]

5 hours ago, drdance said:

I just read this with interest - certainly doesn’t seem to help with the “safe dance practice” message… 

 

https://www.balletnews.co.uk/from-student-to-star-hanna-park-the-royal-ballet/?utm_campaign=shareaholic&utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=socialnetwork&fbclid=IwAR0E-SyhBpsZf0CcrbGjeGOHocq6i55Y9-N2TPHv1bjO3wpj503PwEZcRfs

Pointe shoes at 8 and variations at 10!?!? 🤐

 

I’m now picturing my 8 - 10 year old students and their child bodies.

This seems like absolute madness! 

I worry that interviews like this will continue the trend of out dated/ borderline abuse practices.

Yes this particular student has progressed to a professional career but at what cost to her physical health?
Let alone her career longevity.

Edited January 10, 2022 by BalletcoForum Moderators
Edited by Mods with poster’s permission

[meet-me-at-the-barre]

I'm a pointe fitter and I would turn away any student at 9years old. 

Long term damage to their developing feet is a risk. Their bones aren't fused together and they can really damage their joints and bones.

Youngest I have fitted is 11 years old. She was a RBS associate so had been practising metatarsal exercises for two years previous. I fitted her with a soft shank beginner shoe. It pains me seeing young girls on social media doing pointe work. I had a mother trying to get me to fit her 8 year old. Absolutely not and I imagine she was doing the rounds with the dance shops, who all prob refused her.

Waiting and strengthening the feet has so many benefits. I know it's tough as they want to do everything NOW and feel like a real ballerina, but trust me when I say its more important to have strong intrinsic muscles in the arches and strong metatarsals. 

Another interesting point I was taught was waiting until the girl has started her period as it shows a maturity of the body. Interesting as some girls can start very early and as young as 9/10yrs old.

Anyway good luck mums x

[Aurora3]

The "age of 12" rule is in dance science obsolete! The full ossification of the bone only occurs after the age of 18, so no pointe in waiting for that. Furthermore, the biological age can differ a lot from chronological age. Instead, strength and technique are much more important!

Also: How much pointework will they be doing? "Starting pointe" is not the same as dancing on pointe many hours and performing variations that are meant for adults!

 

[balletbean]

On 10/01/2022 at 11:07, Blue Box Ballet said:

Pointe shoes at 8 and variations at 10!?!? 🤐

 

I’m now picturing my 8 - 10 year old students and their child bodies.

This seems like absolute madness! 

I worry that interviews like this will continue the trend of out dated/ borderline abuse practices.

Yes this particular student has progressed to a professional career but at what cost to her physical health?
Let alone her career longevity.

I’m never comfortable with watching such young dancers performing many of the variations, to me they are just not age appropriate. 
I also don’t understand why some teachers are in such a rush either… prestige?!  

[Ruby Foo]

24 minutes ago, balletbean said:

I’m never comfortable with watching such young dancers performing many of the variations, to me they are just not age appropriate. 
I also don’t understand why some teachers are in such a rush either… prestige?!  

 
Exactly my thoughts too balletbean.

It is reduction of a beautiful, quality solo (which requires maturity and depth) to a collection of cold steps, rehearsed to death. It doesn't impress me one bit, no matter how impressive the steps are presented.

[Dawnstar]

1 hour ago, meet-me-at-the-barre said:

Another interesting point I was taught was waiting until the girl has started her period as it shows a maturity of the body. Interesting as some girls can start very early and as young as 9/10yrs old.

 

Would that be a problem for later period starters though? Personally I didn't start my periods until I was 14 and a half. As I don't dance the issue didn't arise for me but I can imagine that making some dancers wait for two or three years later than others before letting them go en pointe could leave them behind their peers, especially as they'd have to be auditioning for upper schools only a year later. Given ballet students are usually very slim, I would expect that some of them would start periods later than average.

[Aurora3]

5 minutes ago, Dawnstar said:

 

Would that be a problem for later period starters though? Personally I didn't start my periods until I was 14 and a half. As I don't dance the issue didn't arise for me but I can imagine that making some dancers wait for two or three years later than others before letting them go en pointe could leave them behind their peers, especially as they'd have to be auditioning for upper schools only a year later. Given ballet students are usually very slim, I would expect that some of them would start periods later than average.

NEVER found a criterium like that! It is not necessary to already have your period for doing pointework. Also take into consideration that girls in pre-puberty are lighter and better coordinated than girls who already have their periods!

 

[Dawnstar]

2 hours ago, Aurora3 said:

NEVER found a criterium like that! It is not necessary to already have your period for doing pointework. Also take into consideration that girls in pre-puberty are lighter and better coordinated than girls who already have their periods!

 

I can certainly imagine doing ballet is easier before periods. At that age I was very into horse riding but had to give up as I got terrible anaemia when my periods really kicked in heavily when I was 16. I can imagine some girls could likewise have to give up dancing, or at least would find it more difficult.

[Pas de Quatre]

As ever, it is the case of finding a good teacher you can trust. All around I see schools putting clips on social media of dancers who shouldn't yet be on pointe - tight ankles and/or feet with knees bent so they can try to get over the box. The worst thing is, these teachers appear to be proud of these dancers! 

 

A horror story I heard from Yr 6 pupils is that a girl in their class at day school has bought pointe shoes and is teaching herself off Youtube.

[Raquelle]

58 minutes ago, Pas de Quatre said:

As ever, it is the case of finding a good teacher you can trust. All around I see schools putting clips on social media of dancers who shouldn't yet be on pointe - tight ankles and/or feet with knees bent so they can try to get over the box. The worst thing is, these teachers appear to be proud of these dancers! 

 

A horror story I heard from Yr 6 pupils is that a girl in their class at day school has bought pointe shoes and is teaching herself off Youtube.

My Dd found out yesterday she will be having her first pointe shoe fitting (organised by her vocational school). She is 11.5 years and was over the moon - they've been working so hard to build up their strength doing a lot of pre pointe work and for the initial few months will be doing mainly just rises and releves at the barre. Like another poster mentioned there can't really be hard and fast rules...a lot of her friends had pointe shoes in year 6 however they were doing associate schemes and a lot of training/strengthening x 

[Kate_N]

2 hours ago, Pas de Quatre said:

A horror story I heard from Yr 6 pupils is that a girl in their class at day school has bought pointe shoes and is teaching herself off Youtube.

shudder …

 

it’s like adult ballet students who turn up to classes in pointe shoes, when they can’t hold turn out on the flat, let alone on demi. It’s a fantasy of what ballet is, rather than the reality.

[Pas de Quatre]

Raquelle - I am not talking about well trained young dancers who have the talent to be Associates (of a reputable institution) and gain a place at Vocational school.  I am talking about dancers who only have one ballet class a week and then their school puts them on pointe!