Was it worth it?

[joyofdance]

My child is giving up dancing after training in various genres for over 12 years. She has decided to follow an academic route at University and has applied and been accepted at her first choice Uni. I am proud of her and happy for her and encouraged her in her decision to move on. In many ways I am  relieved that she has chosen not to continue but i can't help feeling sad and at times angry about the underlying reasons behind her decision. I know this has been discussed in various topics over the years so sorry if I am dragging it up and picking at old wounds for anyone, but the reality is that had the dance world (non vocational) not been so toxic over the years then she would be pursuing something that she loved and is very talented in. I don't think my daughter was particularly unlucky in experiencing some very negative dance schools, dance teachers, bullying etc, it seems it is par for the course in the majority of dance related settings. It makes me wonder if things will ever change as dance environments seem to be a law unto themselves. I see so many social media posts from dance teachers/schools (apologies to any out there who are not like this) who spout about nurturing, support, being a "family etc" when the reality is, and I say this from personal experience, that they are absolutely awful practitioners who are the cause or catalyst for turning talented students away from the profession and the cause of much sadness and self esteem issues amongst young people. I've seen this with my daughter and many of her dancing friends. Whilst I recognise that training in dance does have a lot of positives for those involved I am currently pondering on the old age question of, was it all worth it? I gave her many opportunities and support in the past to walk away but she held on to her dream so I did what I could to support her.  I'm really hoping  that in time I will stop feeling regret and dissapointed at what could have and should have been a far easier and more enjoyable journey for her. If anyone has any words of wisdom or positive stories of moving on, please share them so that I can stop feeling guilty about not being more forceful in redirecting her years ago, not to mention the time, sweat, tears and money 🤣. Hopefully it wasn't all wasted.

[balletbean]

18 minutes ago, joyofdance said:

My child is giving up dancing after training in various genres for over 12 years. She has decided to follow an academic route at University and has applied and been accepted at her first choice Uni. I am proud of her and happy for her and encouraged her in her decision to move on. In many ways I am  relieved that she has chosen not to continue but i can't help feeling sad and at times angry about the underlying reasons behind her decision. I know this has been discussed in various topics over the years so sorry if I am dragging it up and picking at old wounds for anyone, but the reality is that had the dance world (non vocational) not been so toxic over the years then she would be pursuing something that she loved and is very talented in. I don't think my daughter was particularly unlucky in experiencing some very negative dance schools, dance teachers, bullying etc, it seems it is par for the course in the majority of dance related settings. It makes me wonder if things will ever change as dance environments seem to be a law unto themselves. I see so many social media posts from dance teachers/schools (apologies to any out there who are not like this) who spout about nurturing, support, being a "family etc" when the reality is, and I say this from personal experience, that they are absolutely awful practitioners who are the cause or catalyst for turning talented students away from the profession and the cause of much sadness and self esteem issues amongst young people. I've seen this with my daughter and many of her dancing friends. Whilst I recognise that training in dance does have a lot of positives for those involved I am currently pondering on the old age question of, was it all worth it? I gave her many opportunities and support in the past to walk away but she held on to her dream so I did what I could to support her.  I'm really hoping  that in time I will stop feeling regret and dissapointed at what could have and should have been a far easier and more enjoyable journey for her. If anyone has any words of wisdom or positive stories of moving on, please share them so that I can stop feeling guilty about not being more forceful in redirecting her years ago, not to mention the time, sweat, tears and money 🤣. Hopefully it wasn't all wasted.

Rest assured the love of dance will never leave her. The skills your DD acquired will stand her in good stead throughout her life. From self discipline to strong deportment and dedication amongst many others. 
Whilst she has decided to attend Uni your DD should not hang up her dance shoes quite yet. I have a couple of friends DD’s who pursued Medicine at uni but joined their respective Uni Dance Groups. These groups compete against other unis across the country.  Siblings at different unis have found themselves competing against each other! 😂.  Enjoying their time back in the studio with other like minded students and away from the books and lectures has got to be a positive. 
 

Friends that dance together stay together.  
 

ps. Don’t be so hard on yourself. It’s only natural to feel the ‘what ifs’ in this world. Just take comfort your DD made her own informed decision and that the change of direction wasn’t made by someone else. For that you have to be grateful. 
 

Best Wishes to your DD on her new adventures. Such an achievement to be offered a place at their first choice Uni.   Something that not everyone can say. 🙂

Edited December 6, 2021 by balletbean

[Ballet Dreams]

My eldest is in her first year at university she made a similar decision to your DD last year, I think Covid and how this effected the industry was the last straw.  I also felt disappointed as she dreamed of going to dance school and being on the West End and had dedicated so many years to achieving this dream.  She is so happy at university she’s joined two dance societies and competes against other universities it’s a great balance. I think personally now I have had time to reflect she’s made the right choice for her.  
 

Best of luck to your daughter I hope she enjoys university as much as my Daughter. 

[Glissé]

23 minutes ago, joyofdance said:

but the reality is that had the dance world (non vocational) not been so toxic over the years then she would be pursuing something that she loved and is very talented in. I don't think my daughter was particularly unlucky in experiencing some very negative dance schools, dance teachers, bullying etc, it seems it is par for the course in the majority of dance related settings. It makes me wonder if things will ever change as dance environments seem to be a law unto themselves. I see so many social media posts from dance teachers/schools (apologies to any out there who are not like this) who spout about nurturing, support, being a "family etc" when the reality is, and I say this from personal experience, that they are absolutely awful practitioners who are the cause or catalyst for turning talented students away from the profession and the cause of much sadness and self esteem issues amongst young people. I've seen this with my daughter and many of her dancing friends. Whilst I recognise that training in dance does have a lot of positives for those involved I am currently pondering on the old age question of, was it all worth it? I gave her many opportunities and support in the past to walk away but she held on to her dream so I did what I could to support her.  I'm really hoping  that in time I will stop feeling regret and dissapointed at what could have and should have been a far easier and more enjoyable journey for her. If anyone has any words of wisdom or positive stories of moving on, please share them so that I can stop feeling guilty about not being more forceful in redirecting her years ago, not to mention the time, sweat, tears and money 🤣. Hopefully it wasn't all wasted.

Sorry for your dd’s experience sounds very similar to my dd. My dd attended both vocational and non vocational schools and I completely understand what you are saying. The bullying at non vocational was almost worse/ on pile with the bullying at vocational school. I think the schools that always emphasise the family atmosphere are in fact the complete opposite! Some awful comments were made there was body image issues and favouritism to the point dd would be ignored every lesson this was at both vocational and non vocational schools leading to severe self esteem issues etc. I always say that the system of training has failed my dd because that is the truth for many dancers. Yes we still have the what if thoughts like what if dd focused on academics and had more of a social life when she was young. It’s hard now that she’s come away from dance and her close circle of friends are dancers. But she is doing amazingly well in her new job. Her employer is always amazed at how fast she learns and picks up new tasks  and we firmly believe this comes from her ballet training so all is not wasted! Be kind to yourself and know that your dd has made the right decision and she’ll find that the skills she has learnt will stay with her for the rest of her life. 

[joyofdance]

Thank you all. She has made some lovely friends through dance but is looking forward to leaving behind the more toxic personality's that she has had to endure. I am hoping that due to her attending a Uni course with students with diverse interests that she is less likely to come across the nasty personalities and competitiveness that often comes with the dance industry from teachers and students alike. I do feel excited for her and I hope she doesn't stop dancing completely. There is a dance society at her chosen Uni so hopefully she will do that for fun and enjoy it. I agree that she has gained a lot from dance so maybe it wasn't all wasted. I suppose I am just sad about the reasons that she has chosen leave.   

[joyofdance]

Just take comfort your DD made her own informed decision and that the change of direction wasn’t made by someone else. For that you have to be grateful. 

That is an excellent point Balletbean. I hadn't thought of it that way. Thank you.

[Anna C]

If I had a pound for every time I beat myself up about my parenting, especially decisions made around ballet, I would be a millionaire, joyofdance.  But we can’t go back in time, and at the time we’re doing the best we can with the knowledge we have - plus we don’t want to be the one to deny our child the chance to follow her dreams.  Hindsight is a wonderful thing, and there are things I regret now, like behaviour I tolerated from teachers, a full time “school” I wish I’d never let my dd attend, and so on.  Ballet has taken its toll on her, physically and mentally.  The saddest thing was that the choice to go down the academic route was only partially dd’s, mostly it was made for her by her body, and the injury she sustained.  Whatever made your daughter choose academics, if it was her *choice*, that’s positive.

 

BUT - and it’s a big but - there were many many positives, joyous moments, performance opportunities, lovely friends made (for both dd and me), lovely summer schools, some absolutely wonderful teachers, transferable skills, even the independence to take herself up to London on the train every Saturday and navigate buses and tubes alone - so many benefits that I’m sure I’m forgetting some.  Certainly her “journey” back from a serious injury, having a year out and a long, painful recovery, going back to school for A Levels, getting her RAD Adv 2 just for personal satisfaction, all clearly made her an interesting (and successful) candidate for Oxbridge where she’s now studying (and dancing for fun on the Uni’s competition team).  

 

Once she stepped off the audition/full-time ballet roller coaster, she suddenly found dance fun again with no pressure.  She loves having “Dance friends” from her own and other Colleges and “subject/College friends.  There are dance social events, competitions, it keeps her fitness up, and is a welcome break from academic work.  I can definitely recommend it, even if your dd wants to steer clear of ballet and switch to jazz, tap, or even hip-hop! 

 

It’s probably all very raw for you right now, and I completely understand that.  When we see our beloved children hurt, grieving, injured, and we see the lasting effects the ballet world has had on them, it’s natural to feel sad, angry, and even bitter.  It can be a brutal, toxic environment, but it’s what they wanted to do at the time, and none of us have a crystal ball.  With time, with support - with counselling, if necessary - the grief lessens and the love of dance often returns.  “Was it worth it?” is the million dollar question, and one you may never have the answer to, but it is what it is.  

 

Who knows, ballet and all its downsides may be partly what’s helped to give your dd the resilience and determination to get into her first choice of uni - no mean feat - and hopefully she will continue to dance there, with all the fun and benefits to enjoy, and friends to make.  I hope she’ll have such a happy time. 

[joyofdance]

10 minutes ago, Anna C said:

If I had a pound for every time I beat myself up about my parenting, especially decisions made around ballet, I would be a millionaire, joyofdance.  But we can’t go back in time, and at the time we’re doing the best we can with the knowledge we have - plus we don’t want to be the one to deny our child the chance to follow her dreams.  Hindsight is a wonderful thing, and there are things I regret now, like behaviour I tolerated from teachers, a full time “school” I wish I’d never let my dd attend, and so on.  Ballet has taken its toll on her, physically and mentally.  The saddest thing was that the choice to go down the academic route was only partially dd’s, mostly it was made for her by her body, and the injury she sustained.  Whatever made your daughter choose academics, if it was her *choice*, that’s positive.

 

BUT - and it’s a big but - there were many many positives, joyous moments, performance opportunities, lovely friends made (for both dd and me), lovely summer schools, some absolutely wonderful teachers, transferable skills, even the independence to take herself up to London on the train every Saturday and navigate buses and tubes alone - so many benefits that I’m sure I’m forgetting some.  Certainly her “journey” back from a serious injury, having a year out and a long, painful recovery, going back to school for A Levels, getting her RAD Adv 2 just for personal satisfaction, all clearly made her an interesting (and successful) candidate for Oxbridge where she’s now studying (and dancing for fun on the Uni’s competition team).  

 

Once she stepped off the audition/full-time ballet roller coaster, she suddenly found dance fun again with no pressure.  She loves having “Dance friends” from her own and other Colleges and “subject/College friends.  There are dance social events, competitions, it keeps her fitness up, and is a welcome break from academic work.  I can definitely recommend it, even if your dd wants to steer clear of ballet and switch to jazz, tap, or even hip-hop! 

 

It’s probably all very raw for you right now, and I completely understand that.  When we see our beloved children hurt, grieving, injured, and we see the lasting effects the ballet world has had on them, it’s natural to feel sad, angry, and even bitter.  It can be a brutal, toxic environment, but it’s what they wanted to do at the time, and none of us have a crystal ball.  With time, with support - with counselling, if necessary - the grief lessens and the love of dance often returns.  “Was it worth it?” is the million dollar question, and one you may never have the answer to, but it is what it is.  

 

Who knows, ballet and all its downsides may be partly what’s helped to give your dd the resilience and determination to get into her first choice of uni - no mean feat - and hopefully she will continue to dance there, with all the fun and benefits to enjoy, and friends to make.  I hope she’ll have such a happy time. 

You are absolutely right. Funnily enough she is confident and happy in her decision and I am the one feeling sad and at times bitter, although I definitely don't let her know this. I'm so pleased to hear that your daughter and other people on the threads children came out the other end stronger and successful in their chosen path. I do have faith that my daughter will be the same. Interestingly she tells me that many of her friends that are staying on to do dance really don't want to but they are either too frightened and nervous to take the leap or don't have confidence in themselves in other areas. Many of them know that they will be unlikely to get work in the industry but still can't bring themselves to leave/change direction.  I think I am just in a bit of a grieving process and will hopefully feel better once I see her settled and happy at Uni.

[MrsMoo2]

From another perspective I danced till I was 19, it was my life and I thought I knew exactly where I wanted to be. Sadly my own mental health took a turn and I became ill with bipolar disorder. I’m 40 odd and in my day it wasn’t unusual for the ballet mistress to hit you on the stomach with a stick if you didn’t pull up enough in your barre work! One poor friend was repeatedly told she was too fat, she wasn’t, but she was ground down by this particular teacher every day. Many of us ended up with mental health issues. That was where I had my idea for my career. I have pursued a career over the years as a mental health nurse, DBT counsellor and approved mental health practitioner. I help the dancers who don’t make it to the west end. I listen to the way in which people have been treated both at vocational and non vocational schools. I have no doubt in my mind that there are good things dancing teaches you but also it has an awful lot to answer for with regards to mental health. I’ve ended up with 2 degrees, masters and lots of other qualifications which I never would have studied for had I not felt passionate about helping dancers and other young people from the industry. 
My son has followed in my dancing shoes and I find it interesting to see how much has changed but so much still has to change. He has had to face different criticism from his non dancing peers.

Good luck to your daughter, I hope she had the best experiences in uni, and continues to have a joy of movement…😁😁😁😁

[joyofdance]

Thank you MrsMoo2. How amazing that you were able to turn something so awful in to something so wonderful. Its good to hear peoples experiences and perspectives. I agree a lot has changed over the years however I can't help feeling that whilst most teachers now are aware that physical punishment or assault as it should be called is not acceptable, those same personality types are still amongst us. Especially in the competitive industry which my daughter was/is part of. Their bullying tactics are much more subtle but nonetheless damaging. Thank goodness we have trained professionals like you who are able to help people recover. Whilst my daughter has had many unhappy times and awful experiences she was fortunate to also have had some fantastic times and personal achievements so maybe now is the right time for her to get out before anymore damage is done. Just writing this down and reading the reply's has made me feel much better and I'm starting to realise that my daughter is stronger and more sussed than perhaps I give her credit for. 

[glowlight]

@joyofdanceI think it is normal for us as dance parents to have a sense of mourning when our DC's step away from the intense path that they were on, whatever the reason.  After all we have invested much time, emotion, hope and dedication to that path - just as they have.  

 

My dd chose to give up dance after 5 years working professionally.  She knew she had taken her dance career as far as she could and wanted other challenges.  

 

Recently we went to watch a ballet in the theatre and she commented how glad she was that this hadn't been her entire life.  That much as her 12 year old self wanted nothing more than to spend her whole life dancing all day every day, now she is grateful that she has done so much more with her life.  

 

I can assure you that the time your dd spent training as a dancer was not wasted.  It has taught her vital skills which will transfer into any future walk of life - work ethic, how to follow instructions, memory skills, team work to name but a few.  And the joy of dance will hopefully live with her for a lifetime.  And like my daughter she will love going to the theatre and watching dancers that she trained with performing.  And she will love dancing for pleasure on her own terms when she is ready.  

[Lifeafterballet]

2 hours ago, joyofdance said:

My child is giving up dancing after training in various genres for over 12 years. She has decided to follow an academic route at University and has applied and been accepted at her first choice Uni. I am proud of her and happy for her and encouraged her in her decision to move on. In many ways I am  relieved that she has chosen not to continue but i can't help feeling sad and at times angry about the underlying reasons behind her decision. I know this has been discussed in various topics over the years so sorry if I am dragging it up and picking at old wounds for anyone, but the reality is that had the dance world (non vocational) not been so toxic over the years then she would be pursuing something that she loved and is very talented in. I don't think my daughter was particularly unlucky in experiencing some very negative dance schools, dance teachers, bullying etc, it seems it is par for the course in the majority of dance related settings. It makes me wonder if things will ever change as dance environments seem to be a law unto themselves. I see so many social media posts from dance teachers/schools (apologies to any out there who are not like this) who spout about nurturing, support, being a "family etc" when the reality is, and I say this from personal experience, that they are absolutely awful practitioners who are the cause or catalyst for turning talented students away from the profession and the cause of much sadness and self esteem issues amongst young people. I've seen this with my daughter and many of her dancing friends. Whilst I recognise that training in dance does have a lot of positives for those involved I am currently pondering on the old age question of, was it all worth it? I gave her many opportunities and support in the past to walk away but she held on to her dream so I did what I could to support her.  I'm really hoping  that in time I will stop feeling regret and dissapointed at what could have and should have been a far easier and more enjoyable journey for her. If anyone has any words of wisdom or positive stories of moving on, please share them so that I can stop feeling guilty about not being more forceful in redirecting her years ago, not to mention the time, sweat, tears and money 🤣. Hopefully it wasn't all wasted.

We are exactly a year ahead of you following a similar journey. 
In December 2020 our daughter did one last performance, took a selfie in her beautiful snowflake costume and hung up her pointe shoes. She hasn’t danced since. Like your daughter got her first choice university and has never looked back. She is blooming 🥰 After the initial feelings of loss and sadness for her it was absolutely the best decision and we are so proud of her bravery for walking away from her addiction that caused her so much pain. We have never seen her this happy and healthy in over 8 years. She has made some amazing new friends and is living a new dream. It has taken a year for us to start the recovery from ballet training. Financially that will take years 🤣 We feel less anxious and so much more positive about the future. I sleep a lot better and cry less. 
Was it worth it ? Probably not. 
I sometimes on a this forum feel like the dementor of ballet. Sucking all the happiness out of the room 😢 But parents need to know what they are signing up for and not just get sweep away with it all. We don’t have a chip on our shoulders,we aren’t angry, we hold no grudges as we know what goes around comes around and those bullying, spiteful people that our children and us encountered can’t surely have the love, support and wonderful future that we have together. 
I’m so happy for your daughter and congratulations on her securing a place at university🥳 Some people talk of the resilience and other positive skills that ballet children acquire during their training and my daughter has, but balance that with the physical, psychological and emotional damage that she endured and the demons that still lurk in the shadows and I would say the negatives out way the positives.
Keep looking forward 💪 🥰 

[joyofdance]

19 minutes ago, cotes du rhone ! said:

We are exactly a year ahead of you following a similar journey. 
In December 2020 our daughter did one last performance, took a selfie in her beautiful snowflake costume and hung up her pointe shoes. She hasn’t danced since. Like your daughter got her first choice university and has never looked back. She is blooming 🥰 After the initial feelings of loss and sadness for her it was absolutely the best decision and we are so proud of her bravery for walking away from her addiction that caused her so much pain. We have never seen her this happy and healthy in over 8 years. She has made some amazing new friends and is living a new dream. It has taken a year for us to start the recovery from ballet training. Financially that will take years 🤣 We feel less anxious and so much more positive about the future. I sleep a lot better and cry less. 
Was it worth it ? Probably not. 
I sometimes on a this forum feel like the dementor of ballet. Sucking all the happiness out of the room 😢 But parents need to know what they are signing up for and not just get sweep away with it all. We don’t have a chip on our shoulders,we aren’t angry, we hold no grudges as we know what goes around comes around and those bullying, spiteful people that our children and us encountered can’t surely have the love, support and wonderful future that we have together. 
I’m so happy for your daughter and congratulations on her securing a place at university🥳 Some people talk of the resilience and other positive skills that ballet children acquire during their training and my daughter has, but balance that with the physical, psychological and emotional damage that she endured and the demons that still lurk in the shadows and I would say the negatives out way the positives.
Keep looking forward 💪 🥰 

Thank you for your insights. I too have often felt like the negative voice both on here and amongst dance Mum friends. I suppose in many ways I never really fitted in because I was always the one to speak up and challenge poor practice and toxic cultures. My daughters dance years were not purely in ballet but in several genres and she has been part of a couple of dance schools, associates etc that are highly competitive however the types of bullying and cultures are the same. I sometimes regret speaking out as it didn't do my daughter any favours in the long run but I couldn't sit back and let her or others be the brunt of some peoples over inflated egos and cruel streaks. Reading all of these responses has been really helpful as sometimes you can feel a bit alone with your worries, thoughts and feelings so its good to hear the positive experiences that young people are having since leaving the world of dance. 

[RosiesDream]

Well, I'm now in my eighth decade, and in my experience, this sort of thing is not confined to the dance world. If one ventures into any walk of life there are toxic elements, be it in the performing arts or the sports world, and when my children were growing up, we experienced it in both. However, they have come through unscathed and although they may not be taking the West End by storm or winning Olympic gold, I believe their experience has been a positive one in the long run, because in adult life, they have the confidence to deal with those difficult situations effectively. Like in Love, it is better to have danced and called it a day, than never to have danced at all.

[Anna C]

10 hours ago, cotes du rhone ! said:

I sometimes on a this forum feel like the dementor of ballet. Sucking all the happiness out of the room 😢 But parents need to know what they are signing up for and not just get sweep away with it all. We don’t have a chip on our shoulders,we aren’t angry…

 

You’re a better person than I am, cdr - I *was* angry.  Really angry.  Angry with the people who spun a great yarn, talked the talk, but who turned out to be nothing more than good salespeople.  

 

But why would we not be angry, when our beloved children come home broken in all senses of the word?  It’s completely understandable.  It does ease in time, especially when we’re able to express it safely. 

 

We need to hear stories from both sides; hearing the positives and the negatives helps us make a choice.  Don’t think of yourself as a Dementor; you’re giving us your honest personal experience and that can only be helpful to new people or people just starting the ballet journey.  

 

I’ve said before that perhaps we as parents need to think of ballet as we would horseriding, piano, or swimming - a wonderful hobby that benefits our children in all sorts of ways, but without any expectation that they will become the next Pippa Funnell/Lang Lang/Becky Adlington.  If opportunities to take it further arise then great, as long as everyone involved realises that the likelihood of becoming the next Naghdi or Cuthbertson - or, let’s face it, even getting a paid contract in a good ballet company - is slim to none.

[HopelessMummy]

Some super duper positive comments on this thread. It is a tough profession to get into for sure and the training is relentless. Ballet and dance provides a real quality of resilience and discipline very few other 'hobbies' can boast of. For us, we realize 'not yet' is just a no and dd dances for the joy of it and I'm so proud that she does. It's a shame it's so financially crippling with costumes, fees, shoes etc. but as long she enjoys it, I'll do what I can to support. 

Good luck to everyone's new adventures. It's definitely worth it, our experiences make us who we are, however sad and difficult that might have been. Onwards and upwards xx

 

[joyofdance]

14 hours ago, RosiesDream said:

Well, I'm now in my eighth decade, and in my experience, this sort of thing is not confined to the dance world. If one ventures into any walk of life there are toxic elements, be it in the performing arts or the sports world, and when my children were growing up, we experienced it in both. However, they have come through unscathed and although they may not be taking the West End by storm or winning Olympic gold, I believe their experience has been a positive one in the long run, because in adult life, they have the confidence to deal with those difficult situations effectively. Like in Love, it is better to have danced and called it a day, than never to have danced at all.

I have no experience but I imagine sport is similar. I do think my daughter has gained a lot of positives from her involvement but I do wonder sometimes at what cost. Fortunately I think she is getting out of it early enough to hopefully take the good bits forward and leave the negative experiences behind her. I was chatting to her this afternoon about it all and she does seem really resilient and is very excited about the future so that is good. I think I am suffering the affects of it all and the loss more than she is 🤣  

[Peanut68]

It is almost a bereavement isn’t it... when so much energy, time, focus & finds have been directed towards one sodcifhc goal, letting go is hard for us supporting actors....

[joyofdance]

47 minutes ago, Peanut68 said:

It is almost a bereavement isn’t it... when so much energy, time, focus & finds have been directed towards one sodcifhc goal, letting go is hard for us supporting actors....

It definitely is Peanut68. As I said before there is a part of me that is relieved that she is moving away from dance. I imagine that once I have stopped (secretly) grieving, I will hopefully be able to think about the positive experiences she has had and leave behind my anger about the negative ones. Thank you all, reading your responses has been a real help and being able to share my thoughts and feelings has been quite cathartic. 

[taxi4ballet]

From what I can see, the young people who end up utterly broken by the system are not the ones who end up with a long-term professional career in the industry.

 

The people who end up teaching at vocational level tend to be the fortunate resilient ones who overcame all the rotten stuff. And because they coped with it, they perpetuate it, because in their minds you have to be tough to succeed (like they did) and anyone who isn't tough enough will fall by the wayside. So many of them have the attitude that they need to make or break their students. Too bad for the ones who fall by the wayside. 

 

As far as I'm concerned, until we can change that mindset, things will never get better.

[Peanut68]

Taxi - That’s an accurate analysis of much (not all) of the high level dance training in this country IMHO....

How many of the ‘broken’ & how many of those who simply lost the joy could’ve had careers in dance - enriching their & audiences lives? I even think that there could & should be far more dance with far more audience appeal thus creating more jobs in the industry...if only training & the whole imagery became more inclusive & up to date!! 

[AllAboutTheJourney]

I hope your DD enjoys uni @joyofdance and that in time it will feel like its been worth it.

 

I've said before on this forum that it is extremely helpful for those of us with younger children to hear both the good and the bad about dance training from those of you who have gone further down the path already. 

 

Can I ask something - and this is in no way intended to dismiss or belittle the issues or experiences mentioned above...  For those of you whose children have had negative experiences/feel 'broken' in some way - when did it start to change? When did those kinds of issues arise? Was it at a certain school or a type of school or at a certain age etc? 

 

I think for us we are still in what is perhaps a lucky position where we haven't encountered - yet - toxic behaviours/an ultra competitive environment/any form of mentally inappropriate or damaging teaching.  Our dance school is very nurturing, the associates programme we have experience of is excellent. I can see (on social media) that there are certain dance schools I would never consider sending my children to but we have no reason to come across them. At the moment, dance is an entirely happy thing (which  I am very grateful for). 

 

I guess I am hoping to learn if there is a common age/time/level of training when people felt it all changed or whether that is very much down to individual circumstances.

 

Please feel free to PM if you'd rather - I appreciate the dance world is very small but as I've said before it's very helpful for those of us with younger children to hear from more experienced dance parents. 

[meadowblythe]

 

Personally I think I knew from term 1 that things were not good.  Ironically, being assessed out at the end of year 9 was the best thing that ever happened to my DS - forced us to address situations that had been running on for too long.

 

I would also comment this is not ballet specific - going through similar issues to some US experiences raised now in a completely different performing arts genre.

[joyofdance]

18 minutes ago, Waverley said:

I hope your DD enjoys uni @joyofdance and that in time it will feel like its been worth it.

 

I've said before on this forum that it is extremely helpful for those of us with younger children to hear both the good and the bad about dance training from those of you who have gone further down the path already. 

 

Can I ask something - and this is in no way intended to dismiss or belittle the issues or experiences mentioned above...  For those of you whose children have had negative experiences/feel 'broken' in some way - when did it start to change? When did those kinds of issues arise? Was it at a certain school or a type of school or at a certain age etc? 

 

I think for us we are still in what is perhaps a lucky position where we haven't encountered - yet - toxic behaviours/an ultra competitive environment/any form of mentally inappropriate or damaging teaching.  Our dance school is very nurturing, the associates programme we have experience of is excellent. I can see (on social media) that there are certain dance schools I would never consider sending my children to but we have no reason to come across them. At the moment, dance is an entirely happy thing (which  I am very grateful for). 

 

I guess I am hoping to learn if there is a common age/time/level of training when people felt it all changed or whether that is very much down to individual circumstances.

 

Please feel free to PM if you'd rather - I appreciate the dance world is very small but as I've said before it's very helpful for those of us with younger children to hear from more experienced dance parents. 

For my daughter the issues didn't really start until about age 9 when she moved from a small village dance school to a more competitive "popular" school. Interestingly it was a lovely and well meaning dance teacher at the village school that suggested it as she saw potential in my daughter and didn't think that the one she taught at could offer her the standard of teaching she needed etc. The new school had a very good reputation and is known around the competition dance circuit and amongst some of the top dance schools in the UK. She loved it there and the standard of teaching was excellent. We were asked several times to allow her to join the competition team but initially resisted . The competition team and their parents had a bit of a reputation and there were often drama's and gossip and it all seemed a bit OTT so we were very reluctant. She desperately wanted to do comps and events so eventually we let her.  Very soon we saw first hand why there were so many drama's and also witnessed the bullying from teachers and the culture that encouraged the children to behave in the same way. Fortunately we managed to stay out of it for quite a while but I regret not pulling her out sooner as the toxic nature of the school was by then obvious. It is important to stress that for quite a long time my daughter wasn't targeted however the things she witnessed had a big impact on her and in hindsight I realise that she became quite fearful. Also in all honesty I got sucked in to the "that is the way dance is" mentality for a while. I think I was partly to blame for her being targeted toward the end of her time there as I did challenge (politely) a few things around their teaching style (not aimed at my daughter but general concerns) Also to a certain extent I kept a tight reign and didn't let her  be involved in everything all of the time or let her have ridiculously expensive private lessons. The dance school owner accused me of trying to sabotage my daughters future in dance 🤣 After a while I started to see my daughter being targeted and was told by others who had been there a lot longer than me that it was because I spoke out and to keep quiet or it could get worse. Of course I didn't keep quiet, and it did get worse. To cut a long story short, we moved her to another dance school (after being assured by the owner how nurturing they were and how they do not bully or tolerate bullying) and it was sadly the same. The last few  years she has been at a school that are not perfect but equally not as bad as her previous schools but she has been part of various associates  performance opportunities and and workshops and has seen how pervasive the bullying and intimidation tactics are across the board.  Being in the competition/performing circuit had many benefits and she had some wonderful times and personal achievements but you get to know a lot of the dance schools and on the whole  whatever they spout on SM about how wonderful they are and how dedicated and loyal their students are, it often isn't true. Most have very effectively taught their students (and parents) not to dare challenge and to show adoration and loyalty. I know of some that have gone as far as to instruct students and parents to write positive comments or posts.  I also know of students and parents to this day that write gushing SM  posts full of obsequious compliments when in reality they feel angry and dissolutioned but they do it to curry favour. (Not to mention the ridiculous practice of buying expensive gifts for the dance school owners)  This may seem an extreme thing to say but at times I've felt like our dancing children and their parents are being groomed by narcissists and some children who have been on the worst end of it are trauma bonded and unable to walk away.  In terms of my daughter, she loves to compete and perform but she doesn't have a "cut throat" nature so finds all of the jealousy, back biting and over inflated egos too difficult to handle. She has had a taste of the industry recently and said its pretty much more of the same. I think over the years she has been part of and witnessed the more negative side of dance and just wants out. Like others have said on this post  some children will never see that side or have any awful experiences but for the ones that do it can cause a lot damage. Fortunately my daughter has always had other interests and is doing well academically so she feels confident (as much as you can be) that she has a bright future so I hope in time the damage that was done will be a distant memory. 

[AllAboutTheJourney]

Thanks for your candour both - it's much appreciated. Its good to be reminded/made aware of things to look out for (and, as ever, that the posts one sees on SM aren't always what they seem). 

[Jewel]

For my child there were the usual ups and downs but nothing that you don't get at any school.  However the major issues started part way through Year 12 and dd ended up utterly broken.  Because she was also doing A levels it was tricky.

 

I am pleased to say that she decided to continue performing arts training but with more of an all round emphasis and the institution she is at now is proof that there are some institutions where they put the person first, yet still manage successful training.

[balletbean]

14 hours ago, taxi4ballet said:

From what I can see, the young people who end up utterly broken by the system are not the ones who end up with a long-term professional career in the industry.

 

The people who end up teaching at vocational level tend to be the fortunate resilient ones who overcame all the rotten stuff. And because they coped with it, they perpetuate it, because in their minds you have to be tough to succeed (like they did) and anyone who isn't tough enough will fall by the wayside. So many of them have the attitude that they need to make or break their students. Too bad for the ones who fall by the wayside. 

 

As far as I'm concerned, until we can change that mindset, things will never get better.

Hi. I appreciate your observation. There are quite close correlation from your description of the ballet world to medicine. Poles apart as far as vocation goes but actually incredibly close in their work ethic. 
Just because it’s always been like that shouldn’t mean that it’s ok. Junior Doctors are still expected to work until they are physically and mentally brought to their knees all in the belief it makes them a better doctor because the more senior Consultants went through it. Ballet appears to be no different. Except that those involved in ballet are considerably younger than those embarking into medicine 😔

 

[taxi4ballet]

3 hours ago, Waverley said:

Can I ask something - and this is in no way intended to dismiss or belittle the issues or experiences mentioned above...  For those of you whose children have had negative experiences/feel 'broken' in some way - when did it start to change? When did those kinds of issues arise? Was it at a certain school or a type of school or at a certain age etc? 

This was at upper school. My dd suffered an injury during training and it wasn't taken seriously enough. It was misdiagnosed by the physios, and the teaching staff thought she wasn't trying hard enough to recover and regain strength. I suspect that they thought she was malingering. She had to sit out of months of full training. She got no pastoral care or support whatsoever. There was also a separate issue which we had asked that all the staff be made aware of, so they would be able to accommodate her needs. We her parents, and dd all thought that the teachers had been informed, so they could support her. They hadn't. Nobody joined the dots. DD was terrified of being assessed out so didn't (literally couldn't) make a fuss. None of the teachers took her to one side and talked to her about it, or came up with a plan of action. None of her teachers went to the physios and said 'It's been five months and she still can't dance properly, we need to get this sorted out'. It was only when they told her that she needed to think about leaving and finishing her training elsewhere that we demanded that she be referred for a full medical assessment. Only then did the seriousness of the injury was discovered. By which time it was far, far too late. She couldn't stand it any more.

 

And if you work at a vocational school and this sounds vaguely familiar, yes it is your school I'm talking about, and the way you let a 17-year-old suffer was a disgrace.

[Pups_mum]

16 hours ago, Peanut68 said:

It is almost a bereavement isn’t it... when so much energy, time, focus & finds have been directed towards one sodcifhc goal, letting go is hard for us supporting actors....

This is very true. And I think it is something that can be hard for us as parents to admit, even to ourselves.

*Of course* it is mainly about our DCs, how they feel and are affected but we are people who have put a lot into the journey too. We have made sacrifices of many different kinds. We had hopes and dreams. We get hurt and disappointed too, before you even get to the guilt thing! And that's ok. We are allowed to be sad for ourselves as well as our DCs.

I've been relatively lucky compared to many here. My DD is happy and content with what she is doing now. She's learned a lot from her experiences and has embarked on a teaching career with very firm ideas on how she wants things to be. But there's still a lot I regret and if I could wind the clock back I'd make lots of different decisions. However, it is always worth remembering that whilst different choices would have led to different experiences, there is no guarantee that they would have been better. I could have prevented DD from having some very unpleasant experiences if I had made some different decisions (or encouraged her to do so) but the alternatives would almost certainly have had other negatives. We tend to overlook that possibility when we reflect on things that have happened. It's human nature to assume that if, so to speak, you picked path A and it took you to the witches cottage, path B must have been the one that goes straight to the crock of gold. Real life is of course not like that, and all paths will have their ups and downs, rewards, disappointments, dangers and opportunities. When we are grieving we tend to only see the negatives of our chosen path and the presumed positives of the alternatives. That's ok, and completely normal, but in my experience, time does help. Allow yourself time to do that grieving OP, and things will get better in time as your DD goes on to other great things.

Edited December 8, 2021 by Pups_mum
Hit send too soon!

[joyofdance]

58 minutes ago, Pups_mum said:

This is very true. And I think it is something that can be hard for us as parents to admit, even to ourselves.

*Of course* it is mainly about our DCs, how they feel and are affected but we are people who have put a lot into the journey too. We have made sacrifices of many different kinds. We had hopes and dreams. We get hurt and disappointed too, before you even get to the guilt thing! And that's ok. We are allowed to be sad for ourselves as well as our DCs.

I've been relatively lucky compared to many here. My DD is happy and content with what she is doing now. She's learned a lot from her experiences and has embarked on a teaching career with very firm ideas on how she wants things to be. But there's still a lot I regret and if I could wind the clock back I'd make lots of different decisions. However, it is always worth remembering that whilst different choices would have led to different experiences, there is no guarantee that they would have been better. I could have prevented DD from having some very unpleasant experiences if I had made some different decisions (or encouraged her to do so) but the alternatives would almost certainly have had other negatives. We tend to overlook that possibility when we reflect on things that have happened. It's human nature to assume that if, so to speak, you picked path A and it took you to the witches cottage, path B must have been the one that goes straight to the crock of gold. Real life is of course not like that, and all paths will have their ups and downs, rewards, disappointments, dangers and opportunities. When we are grieving we tend to only see the negatives of our chosen path and the presumed positives of the alternatives. That's ok, and completely normal, but in my experience, time does help. Allow yourself time to do that grieving OP, and things will get better in time as your DD goes on to other great things.

That is all very true and insightful. I am sad mostly for selfish reasons as watching her dance brought me great joy but I also feel sad because I am so dissapointed that adults who claim to be intelligent professionals can behave this way and seemingly get away with it. Both myself and my daughter are made of strong stuff so we will always strive to turn negatives in to positives and come away stronger and happier 😁 

[AllAboutTheJourney]

Thank you for sharing @taxi4ballet - that's really awful and I'm sad your DD was treated like that. 

[joyofdance]

5 hours ago, taxi4ballet said:

This was at upper school. My dd suffered an injury during training and it wasn't taken seriously enough. It was misdiagnosed by the physios, and the teaching staff thought she wasn't trying hard enough to recover and regain strength. I suspect that they thought she was malingering. She had to sit out of months of full training. She got no pastoral care or support whatsoever. There was also a separate issue which we had asked that all the staff be made aware of, so they would be able to accommodate her needs. We her parents, and dd all thought that the teachers had been informed, so they could support her. They hadn't. Nobody joined the dots. DD was terrified of being assessed out so didn't (literally couldn't) make a fuss. None of the teachers took her to one side and talked to her about it, or came up with a plan of action. None of her teachers went to the physios and said 'It's been five months and she still can't dance properly, we need to get this sorted out'. It was only when they told her that she needed to think about leaving and finishing her training elsewhere that we demanded that she be referred for a full medical assessment. Only then did the seriousness of the injury was discovered. By which time it was far, far too late. She couldn't stand it any more.

 

And if you work at a vocational school and this sounds vaguely familiar, yes it is your school I'm talking about, and the way you let a 17-year-old suffer was a disgrace.

That is awful and truly shocking. Organisations like this should be held to account but I suspect given the many examples and failures to learn lessons that they are not.

[Beezie]

For all these reasons, I cannot help but think that dance conflicts with many of my ideals in raising a strong and independent daughter.  As dance moms, I think we all see the positives of dance.  Otherwise, we wouldn’t encourage and support.  But in the back of my mind, I think:

- 1 in a million chance

- focus on looks and good genes

- focus on weight

- more bullying than normal activities 

- career that peaks in 20s

- female characters who are old-fashioned and usually victims, seeking the male protector/rescuer

- lack of diversity

- few women choreographers

- idea that the female dancer is the moldable muse

- stories of abuse and coverups

- need to please the director, at all costs

- injuries

- expense

Granted, I might have just explained lots of child sports….at least with a couple of these points.

 

If my child chooses university, she probably just proves to be sensible.  Many careers get better and better with age.  By mid-life, she may be an executive or business owner.  She is blazing her own trail, where there is less of a traditional framework and no premature end.

 

But in the meantime, dreams and passion are part of learning who we are.  We should all dream and we should all chase our dreams.  
 

Perhaps it is knowing when to change our dreams.  And how to keep our dreams always aligned with our best and most healthy selves.