Beezie Posted December 9, 2021 Share Posted December 9, 2021 (edited) And just to clarify, I love dance and love that my daughter loves dance….which may not come across in that last post. Still, my last post is the ‘self doubt’ dialogue that runs in the back of my head…. I read what is said in this thread, and I see similar things in our dance experience, and it just makes the ‘feels’ run wild. Edited December 9, 2021 by Beezie 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joyofdance Posted December 10, 2021 Author Share Posted December 10, 2021 13 hours ago, Beezie said: For all these reasons, I cannot help but think that dance conflicts with many of my ideals in raising a strong and independent daughter. As dance moms, I think we all see the positives of dance. Otherwise, we wouldn’t encourage and support. But in the back of my mind, I think: - 1 in a million chance - focus on looks and good genes - focus on weight - more bullying than normal activities - career that peaks in 20s - female characters who are old-fashioned and usually victims, seeking the male protector/rescuer - lack of diversity - few women choreographers - idea that the female dancer is the moldable muse - stories of abuse and coverups - need to please the director, at all costs - injuries - expense Granted, I might have just explained lots of child sports….at least with a couple of these points. If my child chooses university, she probably just proves to be sensible. Many careers get better and better with age. By mid-life, she may be an executive or business owner. She is blazing her own trail, where there is less of a traditional framework and no premature end. But in the meantime, dreams and passion are part of learning who we are. We should all dream and we should all chase our dreams. Perhaps it is knowing when to change our dreams. And how to keep our dreams always aligned with our best and most healthy selves. Absolutely agree with all of this Beezie. One of the most frustrating aspects for my daughter is being aware of the fact that much of dance is about how you look and not about talent. She and her friends have often seen dancers chosen for certain roles/opportunities because they "have the look" above those with stronger technique and artistry. Up until puberty hit and her body started to change shape she had dreams of being a ballerina and was encouraged to focus on ballet with a view to going to vocational ballet school. Fortunately we didn't go down that route as I suspect had she gained a place she would have either been assessed out or possibly developed an eating disorder (as did a few of her peers) Whilst there are a few examples of dancers who don't fit the desired aesthetics being successful it is still very rare. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peanut68 Posted December 10, 2021 Share Posted December 10, 2021 I’d so love to set up a ballet company specifically employing talented young dancers who just happen to look ‘normal’!! Lottery win dream? Or should these young folk band together, find funders (crowd funding? Arts grants?) & set up a company to show real bodies doing real ballet to real audiences? And whilst at it, look at the old classics & maybe reimagine some of the outdated imagery (that Beazie so succinctly lists in earlier post!). Matthew Bourne’s New Adventures Company I know is ‘in this space’ so I guess we have faith that dance is moving on! And his shoes are commercially popular & I assume financially viable (?) so surely that’s the model to look to emulate? After all, we do f have just one classical company so let’s see bravery in the ballet world with the establishment of more dance companies! Easier said then done I know.... but a film quote is springing to mind... “If you build it, they will come” Uh oh, I just googled that quote & it’s from the (dreadful flop) Field of Dreams... but hey, give the audience what they want & they will indeed come & become loyal regular ticket buyers! I think we audiences need to demand better & it maybe needs to start at base level; stop glorifying freak shows on instagram, stop glorifying tricksters & stop pandering to whims of outmoded past their date practoctijbers be they teachers/schools/companies!! There’s my Rant of Xmas!!! Hope all have a happy & healthy Christmas & can enjoy the Festive Season as much as is safely possible! xx 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joyofdance Posted December 10, 2021 Author Share Posted December 10, 2021 (edited) Great rant Peanut68 and I couldn't agree more. I watched an online college performance recently. There was a particular dance (a trio) and one of the dancers was quite heavy set (for a dancer) and not the typical desired body shape. Her artistry was amazing. I couldn't take my eyes off of her. She was one of those dancers who's movement and facial expressions captured the story beautifully. (She didn't put her leg over her head once or bend her spine in extreme contortions 🤣) I was totally captivated and moved and barely noticed the other two dancers. I couldn't help feeling though that the chances of her getting an industry role will be limited in the future. I sincerely hope that isn't the case but the cynic in me suspects it will be. I do hope in the future that there will be a big change in the dance world re this as dance for me is all about the artistry and expression. Edited December 10, 2021 by joyofdance 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan McNulty Posted December 10, 2021 Share Posted December 10, 2021 58 minutes ago, Peanut68 said: After all, we do f have just one classical company so let’s see bravery in the ballet world with the establishment of more dance companies! I don't understand this statement. Surely there are 5 mid-large scale ballet companies in the UK - BRB, ENB, NB, RB, SB as well as smaller ballet companies such as Ballet Cymru and Ballet Black. Matthew Bourne has never, as far as I am aware, described any of his works as ballet even though his respect of and homage to ballet is obvious. I do admire his business model though. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SissonneDoublee Posted December 10, 2021 Share Posted December 10, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, Peanut68 said: …to show real bodies doing real ballet to real audiences? … I think we audiences need to demand better & it maybe needs to start at base level; stop glorifying freak shows on instagram, … This implication that bodies that fit the artistic ballet ‘ideal’ are somehow not real, and are inferior to fuller bodies, is just as offensive as any fat shaming that people are so quick to call out. While pressure on ballet dancers to fit a particular shape is unacceptable, any system of value based on size and shape is equally inappropriate. Referring to people, mostly young women and often children, as ‘freak shows’ is wholly unacceptable. We need to value everyone for their talent, not run down the smaller dancers for being smaller. Similarly assuming that the dancers that are selected for roles are chosen because of their appearance or size undervalues their skills and talent. Comments like some of the last ones on this thread are exactly why the ballet world has a reputation for being toxic. Edited December 10, 2021 by SissonneDoublee Edited for clarity 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glissade Posted December 10, 2021 Share Posted December 10, 2021 (edited) 5 hours ago, Jan McNulty said: I don't understand this statement. Surely there are 5 mid-large scale ballet companies in the UK - BRB, ENB, NB, RB, SB as well as smaller ballet companies such as Ballet Cymru and Ballet Black. Matthew Bourne has never, as far as I am aware, described any of his works as ballet even though his respect of and homage to ballet is obvious. I do admire his business model though. I read "do f" as a typo for "don't" .... which would then make sense? (Tho I may be wrong!) Edited December 10, 2021 by glissade Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peanut68 Posted December 11, 2021 Share Posted December 11, 2021 Glissade you are quite correct - my post should’ve read as ‘we don’t have just one classical company’ as indeed I was acknowledging the several Jan listed & also a fair point Jan about the different ‘space’ New Adventures sits in.... Sissonne, you are right to pull me up on my comments & please accept my apologies if I came across as somehow being critical of or discriminatory against the ‘ballet’ physique. That was not my intention; instead I intended to express a personal wish for more inclusiveness & acknowledgement that accomplished dancers can come in all shapes & sizes - & yes, that does indeed include the ‘perfect’ Bolshoi Ballerina! I am 100% against any form of body shaming (trust me, in my youth I was often picked on for being too skinny with accusations of having an eating disorder which was humiliating & degrading). So thank you for rightly pointing out that perhaps my comments may have been seen as though I was merely championing one end of the spectrum....& we will all have our own idea of what is perfect casting for a role & yes, sometimes that may include physical traits.... But much of that is rooted in tradition.... And let’s face it, at the time of writing R&J, Shakespeare probably had met very few 14 year old Italian young ladies.... & in the first ever performances the role of Juliet would’ve been interpreted by young men! Isn’t it refreshing to see how over the centuries we’ve seen R&J in so many exciting forms spanning all ranges multiculturally, multiracially & represented in different demographics, age ranges & in such a huge variety of stagings & genres; from the original stageplay through to artworks, ballet, many other styles of dance, films, opera, musicals & even pop songs! Diversity is IMHO the lifeblood of any artform! 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate_N Posted December 11, 2021 Share Posted December 11, 2021 19 hours ago, Peanut68 said: set up a company to show real bodies doing real ballet to real audiences? i think you need to see more contemporary dance. There are hundreds of small companies, with beautiful and beautifully trained dancers of all sorts of bodies - what they all have in common is an extraordinary athleticism. Contemporary training uses ballet, but also other training techniques. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janeparent Posted December 11, 2021 Share Posted December 11, 2021 2 hours ago, Kate_N said: i think you need to see more contemporary dance. There are hundreds of small companies, with beautiful and beautifully trained dancers of all sorts of bodies - what they all have in common is an extraordinary athleticism. Contemporary training uses ballet, but also other training techniques. I don’t think anybody would deny that there is a range of body types in contemporary dance - but this conversation is about classical ballet, not contemporary. Whilst many classical ballet companies nowadays incorporate elements of contemporary technique, on occasion, they are still fundamentally different art forms. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pas de Quatre Posted December 11, 2021 Share Posted December 11, 2021 10 hours ago, Peanut68 said: And let’s face it, at the time of writing R&J, Shakespeare probably had met very few 14 year old Italian young ladies.... It is a good job nobody told him he couldn't write about a 14 year old Italian young lady as it was not his lived experience! 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruby Foo Posted December 11, 2021 Share Posted December 11, 2021 In order to create change, you need to part of it. All great changes have a wider momentum. We are seeing a great deal of focus on mental health, racial issues, diversity etc at the moment which is a great inspiration for our intelligent, mature, young dancers who DO understand the difference between good teaching, served with kindness and care and the opposite. Some teachers are a confusing mixture of the two, but the students are very clued up as to what is good, helpful, nurturing teaching and what is not. I am amazed at how young dancers today can very clearly see what are their issues and how their teacher is confusing them with their own problems/ frustrations/ bitterness. I understand the importance of self protection for both physical and mental welfare and am celebrating those who would not stand for any further abuse. But I believe some will be aware of how they, the next generation can be the vehicle for great changes in this wonderful industry and bring about a more healthy and compassionate art to the following generation. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxi4ballet Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 On 11/12/2021 at 16:43, valentina said: In order to create change, you need to part of it. All great changes have a wider momentum. We are seeing a great deal of focus on mental health, racial issues, diversity etc at the moment which is a great inspiration for our intelligent, mature, young dancers who DO understand the difference between good teaching, served with kindness and care and the opposite. Some teachers are a confusing mixture of the two, but the students are very clued up as to what is good, helpful, nurturing teaching and what is not. Well yes. Kind of. Most young students in full-time vocational training will be all too aware of good and bad teaching methods, unfairness, bullying, favouritism etc. But none of them are going to stick their head above the parapet and speak up, either about their own issues or in defence of another student. They are also very wary of having their parents speak to the school. They have too much to lose. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dance*is*life Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 I have read through this thread with a growing sense of sadness. I went through a lot as a ballet student growing up in the UK, but somehow nothing seems to have been so bad that I lost my love for ballet or ever wanted to do anything else in life - well apart from getting married and having children! I am horrified at some of the stories here and so sad for your dancing daughters and sons that they suffered like that. Having been a ballet teacher now for about 40 years, I sometimes think that I should be tougher, but then I realise that I really couldn't teach any other way than how I do. I prefer that the students work hard and achieve their maximum, because I have given them encouragement and confidence and made them love this beautiful art of ours, rather than that I have tortured them into getting good results. Of course I don't teach at a vocational school, so it's different. Still although we start out with a handicap as we generally take whoever applies, over the years we have turned out quite a large number of professional dancers in various dance genres including classical ballet. What gives me the most satisfaction is to see that our students really do look on our school as a second home and are always upset to leave. I teach a number of siblings and even one or two children of former students - if the parents hadn't enjoyed their time with us, they certainly wouldn't want to enrol their children! I think as parents we always need to support our children's dreams, but we should also not be afraid to interfere, where we feel it's necessary. Their journey through ballet training shouldn't be as you have desribed here. If parents don't speak up things will not improve. The impression I get of England is that there seems to be a very strong set of rules to safeguard children's rights and well being. How does the treatment that you have desribed here slip through??? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotadanceMa Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 2 hours ago, Dance*is*life said: I think as parents we always need to support our children's dreams, but we should also not be afraid to interfere, where we feel it's necessary. Their journey through ballet training shouldn't be as you have desribed here. If parents don't speak up things will not improve. The impression I get of England is that there seems to be a very strong set of rules to safeguard children's rights and well being. How does the treatment that you have desribed here slip through??? In my experience because teachers cover each other’s back; thus setting a child and their family against an institution. Safeguarding concerns again IME usually get raised only when there is an ‘extreme incident’ or then when the independent schools inspectorates receives enough complaints in a certain area that trigger a threshold for a formal investigation. There is again IME, not opinion, an absence of transparency, openness and clarity about the processes/assessments of vocational training. Even if the experience is a positive one, it is still closed to the outside. I am not used to the independent/private education sector, so what shocked me recently was when I found out that I cannot raise a Subject Access Request for my child’s information. I checked with the ICO because I thought this must be incorrect, it’s not. Again for me, anywhere, any organisation, especially those that have minors in their care should freely and happily communicate with parents, offering up information about a child in their care when asked, and should openly back this up in writing knowing with certainty what is going on with that child positive or negative. It is the culture that needs to change and that isn’t happening anytime soon. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BalletcoForum Moderators Posted December 13, 2021 Share Posted December 13, 2021 Some posts on this thread have been hidden and this thread locked while the Moderation Committee considers them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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