Romeo and Juliet at the Royal Albert Hall 1 December 2021

[annamicro]

1 hour ago, FionaE said:

@annamicro as you haven’t seen Polunin dance much you shouldn’t comment on his technique now.  I was at RAH and also at other performances in the last 6 months.  He is at a super level at the moment.  
 

I was also at classical ballet performances not so long ago of Spartacus and Coppélia in Munich in 2019.  Those were pretty special  … even if not at HIS best level.  The point is they were still better than most.
 

He is dancing beautifully at the moment in the free unconstrained way that he prefers.  
 

Could he dance a Paquita or Nutcracker with the same precision that he could before … maybe not.  But if he wanted to, it would not take long to regain that level.  (And here I am paraphrasing an interview with Igor Zelensky).  
 

The expectations to see his “previously godlike technique” (I quote one of the reviews this week) may have overblown in people’s minds what he could do.  Anyway there are plenty of past videos online to enjoy … I doubt very much he’s going to perform any of those technical classical ballets again.  He’s on a different path now.  

As for the acting comments … 

 

Let’s ask Tamara Rojo, Svetlana Zakharova, Natalia Osipova, Diana Vishneva and Nina Ananiashvili why they choose to perform dramatic ballets with him.  Nina and Tamara specifically choosing him for their farewell performances in M&A.

 

And then there is Alina herself, choosing Sergei to partner her in M&A in Japan over Friedemann Vogel who was also participating in her show there.

 

Or we could ask Natalia Makarova why she chose him for her Bayadere which she staged at RB, Russia, and Munich with him in the title role.  

 

If his acting doesn’t reach you I’m sorry for you … these luminaries of ballet are my guide.  

We have been dealing with Bolle fan club for ages here in Italy, so feel free to express yourself.

Your are even allowed an almost personal Polunin blog on this forum, and feel free to go on with this.

No problem at all.

As Watts said, there are fans and with have to accept this.

 

Just note that Rojo didn't choose Polunin for her farewell in M&A: that was the partnership and he was back to the Royal Opera House having his farewell. I flew to London to see that show.

[FionaM]

@annamicroyou are an Alina Cojocaru and Johan Kobborg fan club.  Im surprised you do not trust their judgement. 

[FionaM]

2 hours ago, Lizbie1 said:

FionaE - do you ever wonder if you might be a little over-invested in all this? 🙂

No I don’t wonder.  I know I am totally committed to what Alina, Johan and Sergei are doing together.  
 

That doesn’t mean that I’m anti other ballet.  I’m totally a ballet groupie … any ballet.

Edited December 5, 2021 by FionaE

[FionaM]

@annamicro as there are over 8,700 views of the Polunin blog it’s clearly of interest to a number of people.

 

as you obviously don’t like him or anything he does … can I suggest you leave this thread and scroll on by.  

This thread was meant to be about the joint Romeo and Juliet production.  Which many people liked and others didn’t.  And that is ok.  You were not there. 

[Sim]

Hi everyone.  People have very different opinions and perceptions and all are welcome here.  What isn’t welcome is sniping or nastiness, and I am afraid that’s where this thread has been and might be going again.  
 

If that’s the case, the thread will be locked. So please…express all of your varied opinions, but without getting personal. 
 

Thank you. 

[annamicro]

23 minutes ago, FionaE said:

@annamicroyou are an Alina Cojocaru and Johan Kobborg fan club.  Im surprised you do not trust their judgement. 

I am a fan of AC Milan and that's it.

Don't mix me with ballet fan clubs you are so fond of.

Last comment on this (sub) topic. (Sorry Sim)

[maryrosesatonapin]

2 hours ago, FionaE said:

I was at RAH and also at other performances in the last 6 months.  He is at a super level at the moment.  
these luminaries of ballet are my guide.  

In my judgement, Polunin is at the level he was in for the 'Take me to Church' video (which I love) and in fact some of the choreography at the beginning was quite similar to that.  I don't think his dancing shows the refinement that he had in his early days at RB but then Kobborg gave him different choreography that demands different skills.  I don't think we will see 'early Polunin' again (and I very much loved his dancing circa 12 years ago).  I think he is still exceptional though.   Alina is one of my favourites and IMO one of the greatest ballerinas I have ever been privileged to watch.

[Lizbie1]

41 minutes ago, FionaE said:

as there are over 8,700 views of the Polunin blog it’s clearly of interest to a number of people.

 

I don't want to add to hostilities, but for the sake of accuracy it should be said that a lot of those views will be incidental as people work through the "next unread topic" link at the bottom of the page.

[bangorballetboy]

48 minutes ago, FionaE said:

@annamicro as there are over 8,700 views of the Polunin blog it’s clearly of interest to a number of people.

 

 

You could also try counting the “likes”. It won’t take very long.

[San Perregrino]

4 hours ago, FionaE said:

There are plenty of excited people reporting their experiences on social media and also at the stage door.  
 

As I said earlier … Sergei’s a marmite experience .. you either love what he does completely … or not.  Some people do change their views too.  
 

I can recommend looking at the photographs.  

FionaE for some reason, you seem to keep wanting to make this all about Polunin and as such you’re missing the point of my criticism. I have always enjoyed him as a dancer. He isn’t what he was when I used to watch him at ROH, but then neither am I.  

My criticisms of Wednesday are levelled at the quality of the production and whether what we we given was worthy of the ticket price.  Dancers can only be as good as the staging they are given and in this instance the barely 80 minute production did little to showcase many of their talents.  What a missed opportunity. That is not the dancers fault. You yourself in your comparison to Verona have acknowledged that the RAH staging was far from perfect.

For anyone who hasn’t read my earlier posts .   I haven’t expressed any negative views of any of the dancing. In my original post I said that Polunin threw some great shapes.

You picked up on the fact that the stage was dominated by the scenery leaving little room for Polunin to ‘fly’ and thus danced with clipped wings.
After 2 years in the planning to bring this production from Verona to London, I maintain that the dancers and the ticket-buying public deserved better than we were given. 

[FionaM]

1 hour ago, maryrosesatonapin said:

In my judgement, Polunin is at the level he was in for the 'Take me to Church' video (which I love) and in fact some of the choreography at the beginning was quite similar to that.  I don't think his dancing shows the refinement that he had in his early days at RB but then Kobborg gave him different choreography that demands different skills.  I don't think we will see 'early Polunin' again (and I very much loved his dancing circa 12 years ago).  I think he is still exceptional though.   Alina is one of my favourites and IMO one of the greatest ballerinas I have ever been privileged to watch.

 I agree with all the comments you make.  
 

And that we are unlikely to see early Polunin again.  Neither RB Polunin (pre-2012) nor Zelensky Polunin, which was better technically than RB … from 2012-2017 plus guesting after that.  Handily there are lots of videos online for anyone who wants to see the best years. 

[FionaM]

that’s ok @prs59  I get that you didn’t rate the production.  
 

 

[art_enthusiast]

16 minutes ago, FionaE said:

 I agree with all the comments you make.  
 

And that we are unlikely to see early Polunin again.  Neither RB Polunin (pre-2012) nor Zelensky Polunin, which was better technically than RB … from 2012-2017 plus guesting after that.  Handily there are lots of videos online for anyone who wants to see the best years. 

Is there any chance you could recommend any good videos of Polunin? I feel like I missed most of his career prior to Take Me to Church. 
I suppose this RAH Romeo and Juliet wasn't intended to be streamed at all. I think I would definitely have purchased a stream if there was one available, as I'm just extremely curious about what it was like.

I also think Romeo and Juliet as a ballet does quite well in a film format, after seeing the BalletBoyz: Beyond Words one with the RB, (Bracewell/Hayward) - though I know some viewers had issues with the shooting style. Maybe this version would have translated well to a film format?

[jmhopton]

1 hour ago, art_enthusiast said:

Is there any chance you could recommend any good videos of Polunin? I feel like I missed most of his career prior to Take Me to Church. 
On YouTube there is a full length Mayerling starring Polunin though I haven't actually watched it.

There is also a very short ballet choreograhed by Kobborg called Les Lutins, starring Polunin, Alina and Steven McRae which is excellent and very funny. 

I'm typing this on my phone and don't know how to copy links on it.

 

 

[art_enthusiast]

 

28 minutes ago, jmhopton said:

On YouTube there is a full length Mayerling starring Polunin though I haven't actually watched it.

There is also a very short ballet choreograhed by Kobborg called Les Lutins, starring Polunin, Alina and Steven McRae which is excellent and very funny. 

Thank you! Just checked out Les Lutins, it looks amazing. It's so interesting to see him dancing with Steven McRae as well.

[TSR101]

4 hours ago, art_enthusiast said:

Is there any chance you could recommend any good videos of Polunin? I feel like I missed most of his career prior to Take Me to Church. 
I suppose this RAH Romeo and Juliet wasn't intended to be streamed at all. I think I would definitely have purchased a stream if there was one available, as I'm just extremely curious about what it was like.

I also think Romeo and Juliet as a ballet does quite well in a film format, after seeing the BalletBoyz: Beyond Words one with the RB, (Bracewell/Hayward) - though I know some viewers had issues with the shooting style. Maybe this version would have translated well to a film format?

 

I believe that there are some DVDs/Blu Rays that ROH sell that star Polunin - Alice in Wonderland and Ashton Celebration (Marguerite & Armand with Rojo) come to mind immediately. 

 

It is relatively rare to see the RB Polunin stuff I find. He himself posted a video of a short Sleeping Beauty clip (11min) with Lauren Cuthbertson - although given the ballet Lauren is very much the star in it IMO, she's sublime. 

 

 

Edited December 6, 2021 by TSR101

[FionaM]

@TSR101

Those two DVDs you mention - Alice with Lauren Cuthbertson and M&A with Tamara Rojo - are indeed the only RB ones where Sergei Polunin has a lead role, as far as I am aware.  He also appears as lead Hungarian officer in the Ed Watson / Mayerling recording and in the pd6 divertissement of the Yoshida / Ondine recording.  He is also the wolf in the 2011 DVD of Peter and the Wolf.  
 

The Sleeping Beauty starring Lauren Cuthbertson was a cinema relay, but not a DVD.  Full length copies appear on YouTube etc from time to time.  

Edited December 6, 2021 by FionaE

[TSR101]

52 minutes ago, FionaE said:

@TSR101

Those two DVDs you mention - Alice with Lauren Cuthbertson and M&A with Tamara Rojo - are indeed the only RB ones where Sergei Polunin has a lead role, as far as I am aware.  He also appears as lead Hungarian officer in the Ed Watson / Mayerling recording and in the pd6 divertissement of the Yoshida / Ondine recording.  He is also the wolf in the 2011 DVD of Peter and the Wolf.  
 

The Sleeping Beauty starring Lauren Cuthbertson was a cinema relay, but not a DVD.  Full length copies appear on YouTube etc from time to time.  

 

It is a real shame if that is the case. I don't understand why the RoH does not offer a fuller range - at least through download which reduces the cost to them. 

 

I think the above clips do prove my earlier point, its very difficult to find RB Polunin material to see what it was that create the legend - the boy genius. 

 

I am surprised the PoluninInk haven't thought to record this R&J for an additional revenue stream. 

[FionaM]

Just now, TSR101 said:

 

I am surprised the PoluninInk haven't thought to record this R&J for an additional revenue stream. 

I believe it is recorded for archival and marketing purposes.  They were planning to tour this production pre-pandemic, so perhaps will do so next year.  So I guess wouldn’t release a stream / recording until they’ve recouped more of the production costs.  
 

It’s always worth following PoluninInk for freebies … Rasputin and Sacre recordings were available free for 24 hours during the last two World Ballet Days.

[bangorballetboy]

I thought this was a thread about R&J at the RAH. Must be my mistake as it appears to be another PR-fest for Polunin.

 

What a shame it’s gone in this direction. It was an interesting thread. 

[BalletcoForum Moderators]

Some posts containing links to YouTube postings that do not seem to have been published by the copyright owners have been hidden in accordance with the Acceptable Use Policy which states:

 

"Videos, photos and copyright issues The very widespread availability of videos and photographs on media websites such as YouTube, photo sharing and so-called ‘torrent’ sites which allow media downloads raises problems of acknowledgement and copyright. When links to videos and photos are made on this site it is the member's responsibility to satisfy themselves that rights are respected. We reserve the right to remove links where we believe this not to be the case."

 

As BBB has pointed out this is a thread about the Kobborg/Polunin/Cojocaru Romeo and Juliet.  Please use the Polunin thread in news if you wish to discuss Sergei Polunin and his career.
 

[FionaM]

5 hours ago, BalletcoForum Moderators said:

Some posts containing links to YouTube postings that do not seem to have been published by the copyright owners have been hidden in accordance with the Acceptable Use Policy which states:

 

"Videos, photos and copyright issues The very widespread availability of videos and photographs on media websites such as YouTube, photo sharing and so-called ‘torrent’ sites which allow media downloads raises problems of acknowledgement and copyright. When links to videos and photos are made on this site it is the member's responsibility to satisfy themselves that rights are respected. We reserve the right to remove links where we believe this not to be the case."

 

As BBB has pointed out this is a thread about the Kobborg/Polunin/Cojocaru Romeo and Juliet.  Please use the Polunin thread in news if you wish to discuss Sergei Polunin and his career.
 

I copied a number of videos here in response to a reasonable request.   Audience videos are not controlled in Russia.  Ballet lovers are so widespread that the theatres there are not worried about losing an audience.  (One of the links was the Bolshoi/Pathe cinema relay ..  that I probably shouldn’t have … though it is widely available). 
 

I see a number of general Polunin comments and discussion remain in this thread.   Perhaps those should all be moved to a new general Polunin discussion topic?  The other thread in Dance News is specifically for his CURRENT dance projects.  Thank you.  

[art_enthusiast]

6 hours ago, bangorballetboy said:

I thought this was a thread about R&J at the RAH. Must be my mistake as it appears to be another PR-fest for Polunin.

 

What a shame it’s gone in this direction. It was an interesting thread. 

That seems like a slight over-generalisation. As you may notice in the previous posts, the RAH R&J performance was also mentioned, in the context of whether they would decide to stream it or not. Or is it impossible to discuss related topics simultaneously within this thread?

I must say, as a newcomer to this forum, I'm unpleasantly surprised by the amount of content policing which seems to occur in response to what seem like natural topics of conversation. It certainly does not create a welcoming atmosphere for newcomers to the forum.

[capybara]

37 minutes ago, art_enthusiast said:

I must say, as a newcomer to this forum, I'm unpleasantly surprised by the amount of content policing which seems to occur in response to what seem like natural topics of conversation. It certainly does not create a welcoming atmosphere for newcomers to the forum.

I see where you’re coming from on this @art_enthusiast. 
However, I go back long enough on the forum to remember a time when a thread about Sergei Polunin (and, even more so, one about a female dancer) turned rather unpleasant between forum members. I suspect that the Mods. are being cautious because no one would want a repetition of this.

Please keep discussing. I am enjoying, and benefiting from, all the input on here from newer members.

[TSR101]

13 minutes ago, art_enthusiast said:

That seems like a slight over-generalisation. As you may notice in the previous posts, the RAH R&J performance was also mentioned, in the context of whether they would decide to stream it or not. Or is it impossible to discuss related topics simultaneously within this thread?

I must say, as a newcomer to this forum, I'm unpleasantly surprised by the amount of content policing which seems to occur in response to what seem like natural topics of conversation. It certainly does not create a welcoming atmosphere for newcomers to the forum.

 

I must agree with this post. I think its obvious that there is a lot strong feelings on Polunin, both for an against him (I personally am rather in the middle) I thought some people were unnecessarily snippy. The conversation naturally flowed from the discussion about the RAH performance. Do not see what's wrong with ballet fans chatting with each other about it if they are having fun. 

 

 

 

 

[TSR101]

22 minutes ago, capybara said:

I see where you’re coming from on this @art_enthusiast. 
However, I go back long enough on the forum to remember a time when a thread about Sergei Polunin (and, even more so, one about a female dancer) turned rather unpleasant between forum members. I suspect that the Mods. are being cautious because no one would want a repetition of this.

Please keep discussing. I am enjoying, and benefiting from, all the input on here from newer members.

 

Now I just want to know who the female dancer was lol! 

[Jan McNulty]

2 hours ago, FionaE said:

I copied a number of videos here in response to a reasonable request.   Audience videos are not controlled in Russia.  Ballet lovers are so widespread that the theatres there are not worried about losing an audience.  (One of the links was the Bolshoi/Pathe cinema relay ..  that I probably shouldn’t have … though it is widely available). 
 

I see a number of general Polunin comments and discussion remain in this thread.   Perhaps those should all be moved to a new general Polunin discussion topic?  The other thread in Dance News is specifically for his CURRENT dance projects.  Thank you.  

 

The Acceptable Use Forum states:  

 

"Videos, photos and copyright issues The very widespread availability of videos and photographs on media websites such as YouTube, photo sharing and so-called ‘torrent’ sites which allow media downloads raises problems of acknowledgement and copyright. When links to videos and photos are made on this site it is the member's responsibility to satisfy themselves that rights are respected. We reserve the right to remove links where we believe this not to be the case."

 

The bolding is mine.

[Anna C]

1 hour ago, art_enthusiast said:

I must say, as a newcomer to this forum, I'm unpleasantly surprised by the amount of content policing which seems to occur in response to what seem like natural topics of conversation. It certainly does not create a welcoming atmosphere for newcomers to the forum.

 

Well, I’m sorry to hear that, art_enthusiast; we welcome all newcomers and their opinions are equally as interesting and valid as our longstanding and very knowledgeable forum members.  

 

However, in order for there to be a Balletcoforum, there must be rules - and these rules don’t just benefit the Forum and help the very small team of volunteers who run the Forum to run it smoothly, but they also protect its members.  Everybody who joins the Forum agrees to these rules, and unfortunately, keeping a thread on track and stopping it from descending into a flame war might be construed as “content policing” (we call it Moderating) but that’s surely better than the alternative, wouldn’t you say?

 

I have never joined an online forum that doesn’t have rules about what can and can’t be said, “content policing”, and so on - it wouldn’t last long, would be a nightmare from a legal point of view, and would be a platform for trolling and abuse.  None of which are likely to create a welcoming atmosphere.

[art_enthusiast]

11 minutes ago, Anna C said:

 

Well, I’m sorry to hear that, art_enthusiast; we welcome all newcomers and their opinions are equally as interesting and valid as our longstanding and very knowledgeable forum members.  

 

However, in order for there to be a Balletcoforum, there must be rules - and these rules don’t just benefit the Forum and help the very small team of volunteers who run the Forum to run it smoothly, but they also protect its members.  Everybody who joins the Forum agrees to these rules, and unfortunately, keeping a thread on track and stopping it from descending into a flame war might be construed as “content policing” (we call it Moderating) but that’s surely better than the alternative, wouldn’t you say?

 

I have never joined an online forum that doesn’t have rules about what can and can’t be said, “content policing”, and so on - it wouldn’t last long, would be a nightmare from a legal point of view, and would be a platform for trolling and abuse.  None of which are likely to create a welcoming atmosphere.

I understand, thank you. Whilst I don't really view a discussion regarding the previous performances of a particular artist to be an upcoming "flame war", I appreciate your explanation. What I did not appreciate was the rather unnecessary sarcasm and rudeness displayed by the previous poster I responded to on this topic.

Edited December 6, 2021 by art_enthusiast

[Sim]

5 minutes ago, Anna C said:

 

Well, I’m sorry to hear that, art_enthusiast; we welcome all newcomers and their opinions are equally as interesting and valid as our longstanding and very knowledgeable forum members.  

 

However, in order for there to be a Balletcoforum, there must be rules - and these rules don’t just benefit the Forum and help the very small team of volunteers who run the Forum to run it smoothly, but they also protect its members.  Everybody who joins the Forum agrees to these rules, and unfortunately, keeping a thread on track and stopping it from descending into a flame war might be construed as “content policing” (we call it Moderating) but that’s surely better than the alternative, wouldn’t you say?

 

I have never joined an online forum that doesn’t have rules about what can and can’t be said, “content policing”, and so on - it wouldn’t last long, would be a nightmare from a legal point of view, and would be a platform for trolling and abuse.  None of which are likely to create a welcoming atmosphere.

And furthermore, with the heightened sensitivities around these days, and the desire to litigate for the smallest things, we do have to be very careful.  Believe me, our jobs would be a lot easier if we didn't, but such is the world we now live in.

 

The moderators have been doing this for ten years and believe me we have learned many lessons and have on a couple of occasions almost had to pay very dearly for letting things remain on public view.  So as Anna says, if we err too much on the side of caution we are sorry, but the alternative could be that the forum would close down, and I don't think any of us wants that.  

[LinMM]

I think the Mods only intervene when discussions are seemingly going in an unpleasantly personal way between members! It can happen from time to time quite naturally when people feel very strongly about certain issues or dancers or choreographers etc etc and whilst it is okay when having conversations /discussions in person with friends etc ....it could be more problematic on a public forum as might suddenly get into Libel territory! 
I think the Mods just trying to keep on an even keel. 
Im sure FionaE was trying to be helpful but perhaps there were rather a lot of videos posted!!! I thought the Les Lutins. one was very interesting as never seen that ballet before but some of those videos can be found on YouTube if you put in Polunins name. 


 

[maryrosesatonapin]

I have only seen two comments on this thread that could be considered offensive.  One was by me in response to @prs59’s statement that a more professional production could be seen at a village hall for £10, and I swiftly apologised for have inappropriately expressed my irritation at what I still maintain was a very insulting remark about the production.

The second offensive comment, which had no purpose other than to be hurtful, was made by one of the moderators themselves - @bangorballetboy said to @FionaE: 'You could also try counting the “likes”. It won’t take very long.'

I don’t suppose he will get an admonishment but he deserves one.  That was just plain nasty.  I don’t know @FionaE personally, and I can see she is ultra-enthusiastic about Polunin, but that doesn’t mean she should be victimised.  She often gives us interesting information, and if you don’t like her posts then just ignore them.
 

Having said that, if it appears that a link goes to a possible copyright infringement then of course the Mods have to take action and I thank them for the hard work that most of them put into the running of this forum.
 

I’m going to leave this thread alone now – it’s becoming toxic.

Edited December 6, 2021 by maryrosesatonapin
missed work

[bangorballetboy]

10 minutes ago, maryrosesatonapin said:

 

The second offensive comment, which had no purpose other than to be hurtful, was made by one of the moderators themselves - @bangorballetboy said to @FionaE: 'You could also try counting the “likes”. It won’t take very long.'

 

There was no intention to cause offence.  This was in response to a point on the number of views the relevant thread had had and how this meant people were interested.  The number of likes (or the lack of them) is to me a more useful indicator of how people are interacting with a thread (and, being involved in the interpretation of social media interaction for another organisation, I see time and again how this sort of metric is very important compared to views).

 

Again, there was no intention to cause offence; I should probably have considered more how the tone of the posting could have been interpreted by others and so, I sincerely and unconditionally apologise.