White Lodge if never been a JA?

[SissonneDoublee]

8 minutes ago, Whiteduvet said:

OP-apologies for rather derailing your thread. I’ve been thinking about it though and I think whether a child who never made JA’s can get into WL depends on why s/he wasn’t accepted. If s/he had a bad day at the audition, or had an issue which has resolved itself by the time of the WL audition (or if the panel simply made a mistake) then yes, the child has a chance. But if the child didn’t get into JA’s because of something which hasn’t since changed (either because it’s something intrinsic to that child which will never change, or because it’s something they have yet to grow out of), then the child doesn’t have a chance. So if the child’s body proportions aren’t ‘right’ for the RBS, for example, that won’t have changed. Obviously though you don’t know why the place wasn’t forthcoming for JA’s....

 

 

In respect of the other debate, the whole thing seems like a lose-lose situation at times to be honest. RBS offers ‘better’ rewards but the chances of those going to someone joining in year 7 are tiny and the possible negative effects on a child as they move through the system are not to be ignored. Elmhurst (and other schools) may be better, more supportive, environments, but the rewards at the end seem less (if we define rewards as a spot in a top company). It feels like a game of Russian roulette, to be honest, where the house almost always wins. Guess it shows how much the child really has to love ballet above and beyond anything else. 

This!

 

The love of ballet has to be the only reason for being at any of these schools, as the odds are stacked against a career with a top company. A child finishing at RBS is suited to a position at such a company, because if they are not, they will not finish their education at the school. A student finishing at Elmhurst may also be suited to such a career, but children that are not are also allowed to finish their time at the school. This means that the graduate destinations are more varied at Elmhurst.

 

Vocational ballet school is a hugely enriching experience for a child that loves ballet and wants it to permeate every aspect of their life. Not all children capable of vocational training have this level of obsession, and not all children with this level of obsession are capable of vocational ballet training. It requires a ‘perfect storm’ of focus, drive, talent and physiology.

[Pointytoes]

Indeed, apologies if you feel we became rather derailed. I honestly believe( through no fault of our own) many parents head down this path lead by their child and the romance of it all when actually it is a brutal and challenging environment without enough support for students and their parents desparetly trying to do what is best for their child. 
I think the prestige of gaining the WL place and the chase for it makes it ultimately for purist ballet parents difficult to walk away from. As with all schools, ballet schools bring their own risks and shortcomings whether it is competitive assessing out or indeed the leave well enough alone,( even though some students are failing appraisals  ) approach and hope the students know when it is time to go. Both approaches it could be argued are flawed. 
ultimately we only ever react to our children’s happiness and ballet needs at any given time. Good luck for the future and buckle up for the rollercoaster ride! 

[Jan McNulty]

I'm a dance-watcher and I don't have any family or friends who are dancers.

 

As an outsider looking in it seems that people see the Royal Ballet School and the Royal Ballet as the holy grail ... but is that the right choice for your child?  As far as I am aware all the well known vocational schools provide an education for your children that sets them up in so many ways for their adult lives and that some schools seem a better fit than others for the needs of particular children.  As a moderator I read the vast majority of the posts made on the forum and I can remember many people in years gone by saying that they had been to look at/audition for this school or that but that ultimately it didn't feel right for their child.

 

It is obvious that there are far more graduating students than there are places available in companies and people need to be realistic about that.

 

The nearest I have personally come to knowing a dancer is the daughter of an ex-colleague who went at 11 to study specifically for a career in ballet.  She realised pretty soon that ballet was not what she wanted to do as a career and she went to a musical theatre college and subsequently had a successful and enjoyable career in entertainment on the cruise ships.

[Canary]

Just a thought it’s also worth researching, whichever school you attend, do they proactively try and get you work. 
 

After that first year of company applications is over, the kudos of which school you attended diminishes 

 

No one puts the name of their school on their CV after a time, they put the ballet mistress or ballet masters name that they feel trained them, choreographers they have worked for details and productions they have danced in. 
 

[Ms Sunshine]

My dd did not get a yes or waitlist for ja's for Year 4,5 or 6. She did not get any intensive's either with them.  She did get White Lodge finals and a recal then a no. She was offered a Hammond, Tring and Elmhurst MDS so went with Elmhurst and is very happy. xx

[Ruby Foo]

Digressing from the original post and apologies but the issue when comparing schools is how well the 3 way contract between school, parent and pupil is being met.

The parent pays the fees and supports their child through a very long and arduous training.

The pupil, having had a rigorous audition process to assess suitability, works very hard, co-operates and applies themselves mentally and physically throughout their training 

The teachers work their hardest to bring out the best in EVERY pupil from start to finish.

The problem is that it is too easy for schools NOT to keep their contract. Any student is easily replaceable. They can use ‘physically unsuitable’, ‘hasn’t applied themselves’, or any other of the multiple problems, which may or may not be true. Who is to say?
Having experienced two different vocational schools, I can say with certainty that in both, the standards of teaching were extremely erratic with both poor and highly competent teachers. I say this coming from a qualified teachers perspective. It seems there is a complacency and laziness in vocational schools about working really hard with EVERY student. I say this not having experience of ALL vocational schools.

For me, the problem lies in the lack of communication and lethargy from the Directors in bringing unity and energy through theIr staff so that every pupil feels the same worth and their needs are met.
 

[Pointeshoesarethedream]

Some of these posts make really worrying reading to new parents that are about to enter into the audition cycle in a year or two for their children that have a dream! 
 

Reading these posts worries me that it would be the wrong thing to do to even entertain the idea of auditioning for any vocational school, but surely it must work for some? Is it really that bad? 

[Jan McNulty]

21 minutes ago, SJBallet said:

Some of these posts make really worrying reading to new parents that are about to enter into the audition cycle in a year or two for their children that have a dream! 
 

Reading these posts worries me that it would be the wrong thing to do to even entertain the idea of auditioning for any vocational school, but surely it must work for some? Is it really that bad? 

 

I don't have any dancing family members but vocational school must work for some because the companies are full of dancers who have graduated from vocational schools.  I have, however, read this forum to realise that many roads lead to Rome and vocational lower schools may not be the best way forward for your child.

 

Actually I have a friend who, before I knew him, had a career in musical theatre.  He gained a place at White Lodge but was so homesick that after 3 weeks he went home.  He went to a musical theatre school at 16.

 

 

[Crazylifecrazykids]

Have to admit I find all this very confusing and somewhat stressful lol. DD embarking on auditions for 2021 entry and it would appear to be a minefield. She would love to go to W/L in her youthful exuberance it's all shiney but i have no idea what they look for... I read some posts saying there all different physiques etc yet other posts saying the young people are all similar in physique. I'm sure some unsuccessful at JAs get in, maybe? Then there's the if they are turned down for intensives there, is that a yard stick to them being unsuitable for RBS? Or is that a whole different thing? We are undecided about DD trying, it would be nice to know what they look for but I believe this is the million dollar question! 😂

[glowlight]

1 hour ago, Crazylifecrazykids said:

We are undecided about DD trying, it would be nice to know what they look for but I believe this is the million dollar question! 😂

I would say let her audition (if you can afford to).

 

There is no way to second guess what they are looking for, but if she doesn't try there will always be a 'what if' in future.

 

Treat the audition as a fun day out, an experience in its own right.  If she gets shortlisted it's an added bonus.

 

 

[NJH]

8 hours ago, Jan McNulty said:

 

I don't have any dancing family members but vocational school must work for some because the companies are full of dancers who have graduated from vocational schools.  I have, however, read this forum to realise that many roads lead to Rome and vocational lower schools may not be the best way forward for your child.

 

Actually I have a friend who, before I knew him, had a career in musical theatre.  He gained a place at White Lodge but was so homesick that after 3 weeks he went home.  He went to a musical theatre school at 16.

 

 

there are fewer and fewer  ballet people who go away at 16  , and of those that go away at  16  now ,  it would not surprise me if a significant proportion   came from West Yorkshire  (i.e. the  reason they didn't go away  sooner  whether Y7 or y9/10  - is because they were AoNB CAT  )  unless there is a big  reaction against vocational  schools i'm not sure that this will change either...  (also  not sure  if we are likely to see  other Ballet CATs   - although i suppose ENB might be a possibility as they don't have a particular association with a Lower school )

I think we might see a  move  to more y9 /y10 entry as  changing  schools at that age comes back into vogue in general ( see the UTCs  who are Y10 entry )

[Pas de Quatre]

Although ENB do not have a formal relationship with a lower school, they have used pupils from Tring in their Nutcracker for decades.

[rowan]

Boarding will not suit many children at age 11. I know one family who turned down WL because of this, and because they didn’t want a school where you were only guaranteed one year before maybe having to leave and then find another (academic) school.

[NJH]

3 hours ago, Pas de Quatre said:

Although ENB do not have a formal relationship with a lower school, they have used pupils from Tring in their Nutcracker for decades.

true enough but  when you look at the relationship between RB and RBS  ( plus of course  MA and SA provision is RBS branded) and  BRB and Elmhurst  it's  explicit  and would  therefore lessen the chances  of them ever taking on CAT unless their hands were very forced...  

 

[MrsMoo2]

Incidentally my friend went to White Lodge Upper school in the 90’s and is a social worker now. She’d got in at year 11 entry and stayed for two years to leave and return home following a period of drug abuse and mental illness. These institutions are quick to boast their successes but don’t forget not all the stories end as happily. xx

[TwoDancers]

48 minutes ago, MrsMoo2 said:

Incidentally my friend went to White Lodge Upper school in the 90’s and is a social worker now. She’d got in at year 11 entry and stayed for two years to leave and return home following a period of drug abuse and mental illness. These institutions are quick to boast their successes but don’t forget not all the stories end as happily. xx

I’m pretty sure the same could be said for any school!

[Pas de Quatre]

ENBS announcement

 

Slightly off topic, but there has been an announcement today that ENBS are going into partnership with BBO.

Edited October 15, 2020 by Pas de Quatre

[Jan McNulty]

13 minutes ago, Pas de Quatre said:

ENBS announcement

 

Slightly off topic, but there has been an announcement today that ENBS are going into partnership with BBO.

 

 

[Dizzyballetmum]

On 13/10/2020 at 14:58, SJBallet said:

Some of these posts make really worrying reading to new parents that are about to enter into the audition cycle in a year or two for their children that have a dream! 
 

Reading these posts worries me that it would be the wrong thing to do to even entertain the idea of auditioning for any vocational school, but surely it must work for some? Is it really that bad? 

Hi SJBallet ,

i think you just have to do what feels right for your child and your family . Whilst weighing up the risks and the gains.  It was with much trepidation I sent my dd off to full time ballet school age 11 but I knew that this was the best chance of her getting to do what she loves day in day out without having to juggle travelling to classes on top of doing a full school day whilst still living at home . She is now in her final year of the lower school and I can honestly say neither one of us have ever looked back . She’s made wonderful friendships , has benefitted from the small academic classes and despite being a small fish in a very large pond she has never felt undervalued or over looked . That’s not to say she’s complacent , assessments are a nerve wracking time , year nine in particular was tough emotionally not just from worrying about whether she would go through herself but also the upset when close friends do not , this can be devastating all round . That said those children have all bounced back and seem to be flourishing at other schools . There have been so many happy times and the majority of phone calls I get reflect that . Lots of giggles , excitement and news about the day . Of course there’s the other phone calls when it’s doom and gloom , an injury that is niggling or a concern in an area that is flagged for improvement not to mention the inevitable homesickness. On measure for me the happiness has outweighed the sadness and there’s never been a spilt second when either one of us have thought we made the wrong decision . We both realise that statistically the chance of gaining a place at the upper school is unlikely and I hope if this is the case that it doesn’t taint any of the wonderful memories of her time spent there or mine for that matter . I think no matter what the outcome , her five years at vocational school has tought ,  her to follow her dreams , to be motivated , independent

and to not be scared of failure. She used to have a picture on her wall that said “ but what if I fall ?..... but what if you fly my dear “ ... something like that anyway and I think it sums it up perfectly . Best of luck to you and your little dancer , just buckle up and enjoy the ride 😀

[Pointeshoesarethedream]

@Dizzyballetmum thank you so much for your post. It’s really helpful to have a first hand account and your post did that (and brought a tear to my eye) you must be so proud of your daughter. 
 

We’ve got another year before we start auditions and DDs dream could change by then but I’ve always felt that we’d have a go and see what happens. Chances of getting in are tiny we both know that and it could only last a year, we know that too, but if we can approach it with one year is better than none if that is where her heart lies then we’ll be ok. 
 

I want to approach it with joy rather than worry that I could send my DD into an un nurturing world where she would be unhappy. 
 

Don’t get me wrong. I know the world isn’t perfect and I don’t look through rose tinted glasses but your post has provided me with reassurance that’s it’s ok to want this for my  DD if it is her dream. 

[Lusodancer]

23 hours ago, Dizzyballetmum said:

i think you just have to do what feels right for your child and your family . Whilst weighing up the risks and the gains.  It was with much trepidation I sent my dd off to full time ballet school age 11 but I knew that this was the best chance of her getting to do what she loves day in day out without having to juggle travelling to classes on top of doing a full school day whilst still living at home .

To SJ Ballet and other parents in doubt,

Like Dizzyballetmum siad you have to do what seems right. We had to take the same risk and send our DD hundreds of miles from home at the age of 11, and now she is still studying in another country. She was given one of those rare places not even realising how precious was her talent in relation to her peers, nor that she was being provided this oportunity by the State, something that would be a gift to many of you given the high costs of such a specialized education. She did not appreciate it at the beginning but does now. she has made friends for life amongst those that stayed the course and others who left , of their choice or the school's. She, and us parents, saw successes but  also witnessed pupils left to wallow by a mixture of 'the system' of the school philosophy and contracted teachers, some of whom would not jeopardise a regular monthly wage to protect or coach weaker pupils( all Valentina notes too).  Our DD was one of those who not having a classical ballet shape, more hourglass( my shoulders and hips I am afraid though she lays claim to  the waist), I was told in year 2 that she would never represent the school in any external activity, not YAGP , not Prix de Lausanne, not Tanzolymp, Moscow or  any such, but we  kept the faith for her because she was  technically and artistically one of their best  as was evident to all that attended public assessments term after term. It was very hard to know that the school were content to send weaker dancers with perfect figures and not our DD. We had to continue to support her and any of her friends in the same boat. We still send encouragement to all those who were assessed out along the way and are still moving forward .

It is a journey, a tough journey for child and parent as you can see from these posts, but  you are not alone.

My DD has moved to a  new course of professional now,of her own choice  at a natural break in the path. She is appreciative of her start, the friends, the independence she gained that has opened other doors, and the technical teaching. She is tougher and more self focused than her cohort, who breezed through assessements on their figures not necessarily  their dancing, so whilst they are not prepared for the working world, my DD has already had job offers that she can't accept for her young age, based on an impressive international curriculum and scholarships round Europe. We used to joke that if she stayed at her first school to the final year, she would be the most over-qualified guitar catcher behind the curtains in Dom Q, ever.

She has picked up teaching qualifications and studied so much with so many excellent professionals, from her own volition, that she merely has to work in an hour's class to turn the heads of RB and other company dancers, who take her for a professional not a student. So does she  now need Prix? Probably not. Will any of her cohort make it? Probably not. Did her old school in the end need her to do for them? Probably.

So the moral of this is, you are not alone in your worries; the path will have many twists and turns over which you have no control; there are many different routes to the same end; vocational training is good if as a family you can all support the concept and costs and seek support from other parents all in the same boat in good times and bad; there are really good independent routes to the same end (lots of super private tutors for private coaching) and smaller schools; and don't wear yourself out too soon if you are in for the long haul . Lots of sleepless nights, but we are here for you and you DC.