White Lodge if never been a JA?

[Medora]

Hello,

 

I have posted before regarding lower schools but realised I never asked this particular question! So just as the title says, has anyone been waitlisted for JAs (or received a 'not yet') but never been offered a place, but still been offered a White Lodge place? Or is a no/wait list for Year 6 JAs a pretty good indicator that there isn't much point in applying for White Lodge or mid associates?

[ProudDanceDad]

My daughter was SWL for year 6 JA, it was the only time she auditioned for JA's. The year after she gained a place at WL. Never give up !

[Millicent]

I know someone who never got into JAs but did get into WL. And her friend, who was a JA since Y4, didn't get into WL. 

[Medora]

Thanks! Interesting

[Whiteduvet]

RBS website says that many WL pupils were JA‘s. But clearly not all (although this statement will include children who join in later years, not just yr7, who may be more likely to be international students and thus not JA’s). So worth a try! 

Edited October 8, 2020 by Whiteduvet

[Neverdancedjustamum]

I definitely know of some current ones who were never JAs, although I think most would have been waitlisted at some point.  Also most who weren't, I believe, were international or from overseas.  We watched the RBS Holland Park summer show a couple of years ago and the programme had all the students' names in it, and I seem to recall that those who were associates had an asterisk (*) next to their names.  I noticed that as you go up years, the asterisked names became less and less, - so Year 7 had lots and by the time you get to the Upper School names, I think there weren't many at all.  Not sure this is relevant but it was something that jumped out to me at the time.

[Whiteduvet]

The issue of how long year 7 pupils get to stay at WL is a whole other issue...

[Millicent]

3 hours ago, Whiteduvet said:

The issue of how long year 7 pupils get to stay at WL is a whole other issue...

Just wondering what you mean by this? Is it that a lot get assessed out early? 

[NJH]

1 hour ago, Millicent said:

Just wondering what you mean by this? Is it that a lot get assessed out early? 

 assessed out also  seems to be  relatively few  who go al lthe way from Y7  through to the  end of upper school 

 

[Peony]

Upper school is separate so all from WL would have to audition alongside other UK students and lots of international students. So so chances are not all the year 11 WL would get a place because of the increased competition

[Ruby Foo]

Traditionally about 3 or 4 girls from around a  approx class of 15 get to upper school. 3/4 of those will have started at White Lodge in later years, usually year 10.
 Traditionally, most of the boys will go on to upper school.

[amos73]

Are you saying then most if not all who go onto upper school are students who joined later eg y10?

[Ruby Foo]

Yes, exactly. There has been the rare exception where a female student from yr 7 has made it all the way. But it’s unusual.

[Canary]

One of those rare exceptions trained at LJSB until yr7, then all through WL, then all through Upper school, without injury, who did not get company. 

[Whiteduvet]

There are a few threads already on this if you search. The stats are not good: the system doesn’t seem to work for some reason for the vast

majority. 

[NJH]

1 hour ago, Whiteduvet said:

There are a few threads already on this if you search. The stats are not good: the system doesn’t seem to work for some reason for the vast

majority. 

depends what you consider to be ' the system'  ... e.g.  if you  consider  'success' to be WL - RBS US -RB Company  or   if you  include those who staret  white lodge and   end up in a  reputable company   in the UK or  elsewhere via  whichever upper school

[Millicent]

This might be a naive question but I wonder how many dancers who get assessed out of RBS then go to a mainstream academic school with ballet as a serious hobby, and how many go to other vocational schools and continue with dance as a career.

[Whiteduvet]

1 hour ago, NJH said:

depends what you consider to be ' the system'  ... e.g.  if you  consider  'success' to be WL - RBS US -RB Company  or   if you  include those who staret  white lodge and   end up in a  reputable company   in the UK or  elsewhere via  whichever upper school

Yes that’s true but if a school can’t get the dancers it chooses and trains for five years into its upper school then something isn’t right. If that happened in an academic school there’d be an uproar! 

[Millicent]

Do they get more money from international students? I know universities do. 

[Whiteduvet]

The other threads have discussed the role of sponsored international students and competition winners taking places. I don’t know anything directly about that so don’t want to comment, but yes, I think money may play a part. 

[Neverdancedjustamum]

2 hours ago, Millicent said:

Do they get more money from international students? I know universities do. 

I think there is a residency requirement so I assume most if not all international students pay full fees.  However, certainly in upper school, I think quite a few international students are there because they won scholarships in competitions such as the Prix de Lausanne or the YAGP.

 

In recent years I have not heard of any upper school grads awarded a contract with the company outright.  I believe currently there are 3 females and 3 males who are in the company under their sort of 1-year placement scheme (RBS recently published their graduates' destinations). I do wonder how many of the current final year upper school students have been at the school from Year 7.

 

I was chatting to someone who goes to an equivalent vocational school in France and said friend told me that the application process for entry at age 11/12 is longer and very rigorous in that offers are made originally just for 6 months or a year.  So it's basically a 6-month or 1-year long audition process!  Talk about scrutiny!  Progression and retention is quite good through the years but recently, also less going straight into the company (although still way more than here I think).

[Katniss]

At WL every student is only offered one year’s training and they all have to audition again through the dreaded assessments every year for a further year’s training . This is made clear in the offer of training every year.The only explicit exception is Yr 10 and implicitly Year 7- although has happened in the past. In recent years students are regularly assessed out of Yr8 and of course Yr 9.In one sense every class ,especially those watched by the AD , is an audition . New students from abroad are added throughout the year .
RBS is no different to other top international schools in this respect - where they differ is the number going through to upper school.

[The red shoes]

No wonder Elmhurst seems to be the preferred option. 

[NJH]

9 hours ago, Whiteduvet said:

Yes that’s true but if a school can’t get the dancers it chooses and trains for five years into its upper school then something isn’t right. If that happened in an academic school there’d be an uproar! 

 the fundamental issue of course is that the  dancer who starts as a year 7  on potential , may still have the potential at 16  and  be realising it  bur  are they  realising in exactly the way RBS upper school wants ?  or might a move  be  where that individual  wants to go ?  the upper schools have thier own distinct characteristics, plus there's the implicit and explicit  linkages  between upper schools and companies   ( but  none have the SAB  - City Ballet  link   which i think some peopel are presuming  there ought to be  between Wl -RBS US and  RB company )  

[Millicent]

 

15 hours ago, The red shoes said:

No wonder Elmhurst seems to be the preferred option. 

 

How is it different at Elmhurst. Sorry  am new to all of this. 

[Pups_mum]

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the systems in particular schools, I think the point that is often made on this forum is ever relevant- its the journey that matters. The destination is not guaranteed so it is crucial that the young person is on a journey that they enjoy and value for its own sake, and not tolerating unacceptable things because of the hope of something special at the end.

[The red shoes]

2 hours ago, Millicent said:

 

 

How is it different at Elmhurst. Sorry  am new to all of this. 

They don’t “ assess out” each year but rather try their hardest to keep their students and help them 

[rowan]

2 hours ago, Pups_mum said:

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the systems in particular schools, I think the point that is often made on this forum is ever relevant- its the journey that matters. The destination is not guaranteed so it is crucial that the young person is on a journey that they enjoy and value for its own sake, and not tolerating unacceptable things because of the hope of something special at the end.

This is spot-on.

 I tend to think the vocational schools should not be referred to as such. It’s misleading and possibly unhelpful. They would be better regarded as normal schools with a specialism in dance - just like many schools have a specialism in art, or sport, or languages, etc - with many outcomes and pathways for pupils, only some of which may be dance related. 

[Pointytoes]

On 09/10/2020 at 18:41, The red shoes said:

No wonder Elmhurst seems to be the preferred option. 

This I believe is a rather odd statement since many Elmhurst students turn up at auditions year on year from their lower school trying to gain a place at WhiteLodge. There are parents who have seen Elmhurst as the second best place after not gaining a place for year seven at WhiteLodge. These outweigh the parents who see Elmhurst as the ‘ preferred option’. 
Both schools have a very different approach, the success rate from both is debatable on many levels. 
The vocational route is not for the faint hearted and ballet training in this country brings many debates to the fore. 
These two schools are not really comparable on many levels. 

[SissonneDoublee]

8 hours ago, Pointytoes said:

This I believe is a rather odd statement since many Elmhurst students turn up at auditions year on year from their lower school trying to gain a place at WhiteLodge. There are parents who have seen Elmhurst as the second best place after not gaining a place for year seven at WhiteLodge. These outweigh the parents who see Elmhurst as the ‘ preferred option’. 
Both schools have a very different approach, the success rate from both is debatable on many levels. 
The vocational route is not for the faint hearted and ballet training in this country brings many debates to the fore. 
These two schools are not really comparable on many levels. 

I think the RBS name certainly counts for a lot when it comes to vocational school applications, and most people without a background in dance training have heard of RBS. However, the ‘preferred option’ should vary depending on the child. Not all children will thrive at White Lodge, and not all children will be happy at Elmhurst either.

 

Looking purely at statistics, a child starting in Year 7 and going all the way through RBS has a much better chance of securing a contract with RB. But a child starting in Elmhurst in Year 7 has a much better chance of completing their vocational training.

 

As a parent, my priority is to see my child thrive: artistically, academically and socially. Resilience is needed in spades at any vocational school, as the process is demanding in every way, but I would hope to find a school where she feels valued and challenged.

[Pointytoes]

On 09/10/2020 at 18:41, The red shoes said:

No wonder Elmhurst seems to be the preferred option. 

This I believe is a rather odd statement since many Elmhurst students turn up at auditions year on year from their lower school trying to gain a place at WhiteLodge. There are parents who have seen Elmhurst as the second best place after not gaining a place for year seven at WhiteLodge. These outweigh the parents who see Elmhurst as the ‘ preferred option’. 
Both schools have a very different approach, the success rate from both is debatable on many levels. 
The vocational route is not for the faint hearted and ballet training in this country brings many debates to the fore. 
These two schools are not really comparable on many levels. 

[Pointytoes]

Completely agree, the child must fit the rigors of the school they best fit. Finishing training at any vocational school is an achievement for students and parents alike, gaining employment off the back of this proves challenging yet again. 
Having experience of both schools Elmhurst allow their students to stay even if some will never be employable in the industry, Royal do not. 
Thus, views differ greatly in this approach.

Parents must reconcile themselves with different approaches at different schools and new parents I believe should not be under any illusions of this.  

[Whiteduvet]

OP-apologies for rather derailing your thread. I’ve been thinking about it though and I think whether a child who never made JA’s can get into WL depends on why s/he wasn’t accepted. If s/he had a bad day at the audition, or had an issue which has resolved itself by the time of the WL audition (or if the panel simply made a mistake) then yes, the child has a chance. But if the child didn’t get into JA’s because of something which hasn’t since changed (either because it’s something intrinsic to that child which will never change, or because it’s something they have yet to grow out of), then the child doesn’t have a chance. So if the child’s body proportions aren’t ‘right’ for the RBS, for example, that won’t have changed. Obviously though you don’t know why the place wasn’t forthcoming for JA’s....

 

 

In respect of the other debate, the whole thing seems like a lose-lose situation at times to be honest. RBS offers ‘better’ rewards but the chances of those going to someone joining in year 7 are tiny and the possible negative effects on a child as they move through the system are not to be ignored. Elmhurst (and other schools) may be better, more supportive, environments, but the rewards at the end seem less (if we define rewards as a spot in a top company). It feels like a game of Russian roulette, to be honest, where the house almost always wins. Guess it shows how much the child really has to love ballet above and beyond anything else.