Landmark ruling: former ROH viola player vs the ROH

[capybara]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-43571144

[zxDaveM]

this would make much more sense if ALL the viola players were deafened by the brass section.

So can we look forward to having the brass section out in Floral St? At least they won't have far to go to get to the Nag's Head... 

[LinMM]

There may be some things I haven't fully understood here but I do find it a bit strange.

Isnt it a bit like a stunt man claiming that he broke his ankle doing one of his stunts so his employers are liable?

what if a dancer should decide that down the line the ROH is responsible for them needing a hip/knee replacement 

 

I realise that in some instances there may be negligence involved ....a piece of scenery may not be fixed properly and fall etc .....just an example....but sometimes don't you have to accept some risks go with certain jobs or change your job? Or is that too simplistic a view?

 

[Sim]

I must say I am a bit dubious about this.  I wonder if the ROH can/will appeal?  

[meadowblythe]

My daughter is a trumpet player, who spends all her time moaning about the noise the timpani make.  

 

Her school have now started to use accoustic screens between the sections - Suspect the school is worried about being legal action - and for her 18th birthday she requested some good earplugs. 

 

Oh, and one of her teachers is deaf in one ear which he puts down to orchestral playing (but I don't think he's planning to sue anyone).

 

I'm glad the issue has been raised - and loved the comment about the brass being closer to the Nags Head.  You're not a real trumpeter unless you're the last on stage ..

[Richard LH]

Is this why the percussion section was screened off from the rest at the ROH when I last looked?

[meadowblythe]

If I was the ROH I think I'd want to make it abundantly clear I was trying to protect my orchestra. The figures quoted in the BBC article are worrying - I must confess I have never considered the implications of working in close proximity with accoustic (as opposed to amplified) instruments, even brass ones.

 

Stage Manager son is due to spend a day with a symphony orchestra in a couple of weeks, I'll get him to ask and report back about what is now standard on screens etc.

[Jan McNulty]

At a Scottish Ballet performance of R&J many years ago, I noticed that all the violinists and viola players put their fingers in their ears at certain points of the score (Duke of Verona's entrance for example).  I asked someone I knew in another orchestra and they said that they are offered/given ear defenders but not many people then used them because they affected how you heard the instruments around you.  I have noticed screens around the percussionists in various ballet orchestras over the years.

 

As an aside...  One of my ex-colleagues worked for many years in our air-conditioned computer room filled with mainframe processors. One day work was going on on the roof and the drilling noises were driving everyone around the bend (and we were 3 floors below the roof) except for my colleague who couldn't hear them because his low level hearing had been damaged by years of exposure to the noise of the air conditioning kit and processors in the computer room. He was not considering a claim.

[capybara]

Not making any judgements here in relation to the case, but the brass section of the ROH orchestra seems to spend more time out of the pit than within it. In one case recently, they played a couple of bars at the beginning of Act 2 and immediately walked out. Not unusual.

[Lizbie1]

14 minutes ago, Jan McNulty said:

As an aside...  One of my ex-colleagues worked for many years in our air-conditioned computer room filled with mainframe processors. One day work was going on on the roof and the drilling noises were driving everyone around the bend (and we were 3 floors below the roof) except for my colleague who couldn't hear them because his low level hearing had been damaged by years of exposure to the noise of the air conditioning kit and processors in the computer room. He was not considering a claim.

 

I can believe it - I shared a room with a rack of servers for 6 months and had tinnitus for a year afterwards.

[Mary]

I feel very sorry for the man but, it is odd, because the case relates to one specific occasion and yet others who were there were not affected, and presumably neither were the orchestra in previous performances at ROH.

What is the company to do- not perform the work?

-or perhaps make them all wear ear defenders- but is that proven to work? I mean- are we saying Wagner is too dangerous to perform?

How about cancelling The Ring and having lots of ballet instead....

 

[meadowblythe]

34 minutes ago, capybara said:

Not making any judgements here in relation to the case, but the brass section of the ROH orchestra seems to spend more time out of the pit than within it. In one case recently, they played a couple of bars at the beginning of Act 2 and immediately walked out. Not unusual.

 

Usually one of the skills of a brass player is being able to look interested while sitting through the long sections they aren't playing (most aren't very good at it)  .. my daughter would pay good money to be able to leave - perhaps I should point her in the direction of the Opera House.

[ninamargaret]

53 minutes ago, Mary said:

ow about cancelling The Ring and having lots of ballet instead

Not now I've got my ticket at vast expense!!

But seriously, as I understand it, the player in question alleged that it had happened as a single incident, not as the result of some years exposure to brass or timpani. For some years now musicians have complained about hearing problems, also muscular and similar problems, so it seems to me that this case is going to have serious repercussions throughout the musical world. So much of the music written in the last 150 years or so requires huge orchestral forces it seems strange that the problem has only recently arisen.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 28, 2018 by ninamargaret
Predictive text mistake

[LinMM]

I imagine many ex-rock band members must have impaired hearing at least....not surprising considering the size of the arenas the sound had to fill!!

Its not that I don't feel sorry for this individual it's a terrible thing to lose your hearing.

Maybe some people are just more susceptible to it when exposed to loud noise but not sure how you solve it really. 

perhaps musicians will have to go for regular hearing tests and if this shows they are at risk then they can at least make an informed decision about whether to continue or not. 

As I have no idea about this sort of thing does anybody know for example if Wagners original music had less brass instruments written into the score than is currently practised. Slightly similar to modern pianos being a whole lot louder than the original instrument.

And concert halls do seem to be gradually increasing in size so a bigger sound seems to be necessary.

[Lindsay]

Before reaching conclusions on this people might want to look at the full judgment that can be read here: https://www.judiciary.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/goldscheider-v-roh-judgmentL.pdf

 

83 pages but some interesting points. 

 

On the medical evidence, the judge chose to believe the claimant’s expert who attributed injury to “acoustic shock” suffered during one afternoon rehearsal of Die Walkure and found against ROH’s expert doctor (who is 5 years retired) concluding that he was not up to date with latest findings in the field.  

 

She was also absolutely clear that the health and safety of employees is a higher duty for the ROH than artistic standards - their failings as an employer included not properly assessing noise levels caused by a new seating layout in the pit (the claimant had the principal trumpeter playing right into the ear that suffered the damage), failing to recognise that rehearsals differ from performances because loud passages may be repeated multiple times and using a cramped pit. The ROH pleaded impossibility of expanding pit by removing the first two rows of seats, citing 6 month’s closure to do the work and £50m losses (why didn’t they do that during the late 90s closure and how does that cost compare to the current project to put in more restaurants one might wonder?) but judge still held that duty to employees came first.  Will be interesting to see whether the ROH appeals her decision.

[Coated]

2 hours ago, Mary said:

How about cancelling The Ring and having lots of ballet instead....

Tsk, I fought hard for my Ring tickets. Don't you put ideas in their head...

[MAB]

20 minutes ago, Lindsay said:

She was also absolutely clear that the health and safety of employees is a higher duty for the ROH than artistic standards

 

Reading that makes my blood run cold.

 

I very much hope the ROH appeals.

 

Googled the judge, she specializes in medical law and unsuccessfully defended Harold Shipman, well, I suppose someone had too.

[Lindsay]

I must disagree with you MAB.  Artistic standards are important yes, but not more important than human beings.  This musician has permanently lost the ability to play. I live in a household of professional musicians, and can tell you that is a tragedy.

 

And yes.  Every accused person needs a defence. That is part of living in a civilised country.

[meadowblythe]

One of the greatest joys of my life is playing music with my daughter, for Easter Sunday she has written some descants for the trumpet to accompany the organ (I'm really just a pianist, don't tell anyone) - however, I shall ask her to stand well back

 

 

[RuthE]

I am assuming that this is the reason the ROH made the sideways pit-extension all but permanent, long before the ruling; I know they have always cited safety-related acoustic conditions.  So they already HAVE expanded the pit; it sounds as though they have already taken the issue very seriously, even if further improvements are recommended.  It was around the time that this complaint must originally have been made that they formalized this - I remember still being able to sit directly above the heavy brass for Otello and Les Troyens at the end of the 2011/12 season.

[MAB]

2 hours ago, Lindsay said:

And yes.  Every accused person needs a defence. That is part of living in a civilised country.

 

Where did I say they didn't?  I simply made an observation.

[MAB]

5 minutes ago, RuthE said:

I am assuming that this is the reason the ROH made the sideways pit-extension all but permanent, long before the ruling; I know they have always cited safety-related acoustic conditions.  So they already HAVE expanded the pit; it sounds as though they have already taken the issue very seriously, even if further improvements are recommended.  It was around the time that this complaint must originally have been made that they formalized this - I remember still being able to sit directly above the heavy brass for Otello and Les Troyens at the end of the 2011/12 season.

 

They have no option, I'm already envisaging the compensation claims.

[Geoff]

13 hours ago, capybara said:

Not making any judgements here in relation to the case, but the brass section of the ROH orchestra seems to spend more time out of the pit than within it. In one case recently, they played a couple of bars at the beginning of Act 2 and immediately walked out. Not unusual.

 

And this section also currently seems to be the laziest in terms of playing as well (cracked, wrong and missing notes; poor intonation / articulations, etc etc). IMHO - though I am not the only regular ROH attendee to have noticed. 

[Lindsay]

That’s right Ruth - ROH claimed that change as part of their defence and said it cost them over £300k per year in lost revenue. 

 

Interestingly the judge was taken to see the pit when it was set up for Giselle (70 players as opposed to over 90 for the Ring) and concluded that it already appeared overcrowded. 

[RuthE]

1 minute ago, Geoff said:

 

And this section also currently seems to be the laziest in terms of playing as well (cracked, wrong and missing notes; poor intonation / articulations, etc etc). IMHO - though I am not the only regular ROH attendee to have noticed. 

 

I do not have a problem with the "heavy" brass in the ROH orchestra.  Read into that what you will.

[Lizbie1]

1 minute ago, Lindsay said:

Interestingly the judge was taken to see the pit when it was set up for Giselle (70 players as opposed to over 90 for the Ring) and concluded that it already appeared overcrowded. 

 

Um... had the judge seen other pits to compare it with?

[RuthE]

2 minutes ago, Lindsay said:

Interestingly the judge was taken to see the pit when it was set up for Giselle (70 players as opposed to over 90 for the Ring) and concluded that it already appeared overcrowded. 

 

For the Ring, they seat several of the players outwith the pit.  The (seven?) harps, for example, are placed in Stalls Circle Right.

[zxDaveM]

9 minutes ago, Geoff said:

 

And this section also currently seems to be the laziest in terms of playing as well (cracked, wrong and missing notes; poor intonation / articulations, etc etc). IMHO - though I am not the only regular ROH attendee to have noticed. 

 

perhaps proximity to the Nags Head not such a good idea after all! 

[MAB]

7 minutes ago, Geoff said:

 

And this section also currently seems to be the laziest in terms of playing as well (cracked, wrong and missing notes; poor intonation / articulations, etc etc). IMHO - though I am not the only regular ROH attendee to have noticed. 

 

That seems to have been the case historically with that orchestra, actually they are far better now than back in the 60's and 70's when they wrecked R&J nightly, at least Prokofiev is no longer beyond their scope.

[Lizbie1]

12 minutes ago, Geoff said:

 

And this section also currently seems to be the laziest in terms of playing as well (cracked, wrong and missing notes; poor intonation / articulations, etc etc). IMHO - though I am not the only regular ROH attendee to have noticed. 

 

I think one charge that can reasonably be laid against Pappano is his failure to sort this out.

[MAB]

8 minutes ago, Lizbie1 said:

 

Um... had the judge seen other pits to compare it with?

 

Good point, but doesn't this case refer specifically to Wagner?  Is anyone familiar with the set up at Bayreuth?  Personally I've never seen overspill abroad, the musicians always keep to their pit, but then I don't think I've seen any Wagner abroad.  Last year at Glyndebourne they had extra percussion at the very top of the house for Hamlet but I don't know if it was for effect or simply that the extra equipment wouldn't fit into the pit.

[Lindsay]

23 minutes ago, RuthE said:

 

For the Ring, they seat several of the players outwith the pit.  The (seven?) harps, for example, are placed in Stalls Circle Right.

 

It appears that was done at the rehearsal in question - the judgment says Stall Circle boxes had been removed to accommodate the harps - so I imagine the judge took that into account.  Wagner-sized orchestras in cramped 19th century opera houses are really very difficult.  I recall sitting in row C or D of the right side stalls for one of the Ring operas last time around (though I think it was Siegfried rather than Walkure) and it was far from ideal, as the brass drowned everything else in places.  Maybe they should dig down and go for a deeper, raked pit, Bayreuth-style.   I know some orchestra members who have long been saying that the late 90s closure was a missed opportunity to rectify the problem - perhaps this will now prompt management to prioritise the issue.

Edited March 29, 2018 by Lindsay

[ninamargaret]

Not strictly relevant, but how long has it been practice for players to nip off after they have played their solo? It's like Piccadilly Circus sometimes. I don't remember seeing this when I visited frequently during the 70s and 80s, and there were many years when I didn't go at all, so to me it's a fairly new thing.