Turnout!

[Foreverdrivingtodance]

Do all of your with children that have made JA's, RBS, Elmhurst all have had natural turnout? Think my daughter has other attributes good feet, high arches, physique & musicality but this is probably the one area that is not great according to her teacher. Does she have a chance of making it. She got SWL for JA's last year & we will try again this year. Would they have looked at that?? she is very flexible but their feedback was 'average flexibility' would they have looked at her turnout??? Her teacher said I could take her to a physio, but is this worth bothering with????

[Kate_N]

I was taught that turn out is an action, not a position. And flexibility & turn out are only useful so far as you can use them. So you could be naturally very flexible, but not able to fire up the right muscles, so the flexibility isn't used. 

[Foreverdrivingtodance]

Should I bother with the physio?? would the RBS be able to help sort it out or would they not accept someone unable to use their turnout??She is 9!!

[Bluebird22]

Both of my former JA students had excellent turnout range, one didn't have the strength to hold it, but it was there. I had a student on the SWL a few years ago, she had a lovely physique, dance quality and feet but very limited turnout although she really used what she had. RBS said it was her height that went against her

[Bestfootforward]

My daughter was aware of her turnout limitation at a very young age. This is a physical limitation - i.e. due to the shape of the acetabulum (hip socket) and the femoral head. The joint is deep and shaped such that rotation within the socket is limited. She has a ridiculous amount of "turn in" but limited turn out- the lottery of genetics!

 

She is a beautiful and expressive dancer with hyper mobility in many of her joints and fantastic flexibility. She was a RBS JA, an associate of another highly regarded ballet institution and gained a place at vocational school from year 8. However, her turnout has always been an issue and she knew from the outset that the likelihood of being a ballet dancer was slim.

Fast forward a few years and sure enough her turnout (or lack of) has featured in every report, appraisal and parent teacher consultation. She has always done well, but feels that her lack of turnout defined her and this has dented her confidence. She has also been frustrated by narrow minded teachers getting her to force her turnout which is both dangerous and painful.

 

She is still at vocational school, but hoping to follow a more varied dance pathway and is thriving now that the ballet has been "put to bed". True lack of turnout i.e. Physical restriction IS an obstacle to a ballet career. Yes, exercises can be done to try and loosen up the hips, but you cannot loosen a bony restriction. Yes, a good teacher can work with the child to make their lines more aesthetically pleasing, and yes artistry is equally as important as turnout. However, at the end of the day, ballet dancing and turnout go hand in hand, and it is important that teachers are realistic and open with the child and parent about physical limitations and career potential.

[Foreverdrivingtodance]

Thanks for the comments, this is what I was thinking if turnout is physically not there, there is not much that can be done about genetics!!!! just feel we are putting in so much to ballet & ultimately think it will end up being a bit 'pointless'!!! obviously she is doing it for enjoyment & wanted to go to a vocational school, but if its always going to hold her back in the long run its better to know sooner rather than later x

[Foreverdrivingtodance]

When her teacher rang up to get feedback they did not mention turnout but said average flexibility would that have been in reference to it, or if her turnout was awful would they have said??

[Pointetoes]

Dancer123 please don't forget that there are many different types of dance. My DD doesn't have great natural turnout but that hasn't stopped her from taking all her grades including Intermediate, performing with EYB and looking at studying dance at 16+ Her real love is classical but she knows she stands a much better chance with her second love, contemporary.

Your daughter is very young, try not to get to 'hung up ' on it all and let her simply enjoy dancing and the rest will follow. It's a tough world but I truly believe the most important thing is that they enjoy dancing for what it is.

[sarahw]

Well said Pointetoes.

 

Remember in most children dancing is a hobby. Pursue it and see where you get to. It should be fun and your dd did very well to get SWL.

 

Personally I would prefer my dd to have another career plan!!!

[Kate_N]

ultimately think it will end up being a bit 'pointless'!!! obviously she is doing it for enjoyment & wanted to go to a vocational school, but if its always going to hold her back in the long run its better to know sooner rather than later x

 

Better for whom, and for what? A lot of children go through the "ballerina" stage but, as other posters have said, learn as they grow up, that there is a very wide world of dance, performance & theatre out there.

 

If the education at a vocational school is good, what has she lost? A good education PLUS an excellent dance training? That sounds to me like a very good start for whatever she might do in life. 

[Lisa O`Brien]

So few go through all the years of training and make it into a professional ballet company anyway. You hear of talented dancers who have the physique, musicality, everything. But then 100 others who also have everything turn up to a company audition and they're only looking for a few to take on. Try not to worry about the future too much. What will be will be. The training she gets will benefit her greatly, regardless of whether she is ever paid to perform one day or not.

[Harwel]

It's a little like saying 'what's the point of doing science at school, she'll never be a doctor'. It is the journey which is the most important thing, what we learn from, what gives us our character. What message does it give a 9 year old that you are not 'perfect' for this or that, you might as well give up without even trying?

[Lisa O`Brien]

Balance, co-ordination, lovely posture, discipline, appreciation of classical music . I wish my son had been interested in lessons when he was little, for those things alone.

Edited February 21, 2017 by Lisa O`Brien

[Harwel]

I was told by one ballet 'teacher' not to let my dc go to a summer school as it would be a waste of my money as she didn't feel my dc 'had it' (I was still welcome to send them to dancing though, with private lessons, festival entries and workshops!). Luckily, I don't listen and from a dancing background I know what I'm looking at - yes, my child will not be the next 'big news' in the ballet world but only a fraction of a % will be. From that summer school which I did send him to, it led to an MDS offer of a top school, an end to feeling the 'odd one out' at normal school, friends that understood him, a great education, an exponential increase in confidence, an incredibly strong fit body and the 'chance' of a career of his dreams. If I'd listened to that incredibly narrow minded view because my dc is not 'perfect' for ballet he wouldn't be the incredible young man I see today.

[trog]

Anna Pavlova had terrible turnout and it didn't stop her; quote from wikipedia "At the height of Petipa's strict academicism, the public was taken aback by Pavlova's style, a combination of a gift that paid little heed to academic rules: she frequently performed with bent knees, bad turnout, misplaced port de bras and incorrectly placed tours." Merle Park was another with "poor" turnout - Nureyev commented on this. I've often wondered if Pavlova, et al would make it today.

[Lisa O`Brien]

Anna Pavlova had terrible turnout and it didn't stop her; quote from wikipedia "At the height of Petipa's strict academicism, the public was taken aback by Pavlova's style, a combination of a gift that paid little heed to academic rules: she frequently performed with bent knees, bad turnout, misplaced port de bras and incorrectly placed tours." Merle Park was another with "poor" turnout - Nureyev commented on this. I've often wondered if Pavlova, et al would make it today.

Yes, what always surprises me about Pavlova is she was at the Mariinsky School in St.Petersburg from age 10 yet her technique was so poor. 

[Foreverdrivingtodance]

Sorry for being so negative! (her teacher is Russian & quite critical).I think as we are in our 11+ year & she is pretty clever just feel we are trapsing to quite a lot of ballet lessons,associates at the moment & trying to fit in school work.& she has 2 brothers with lots of stuff they do a husband who is away a lot so its pretty much me trying to juggle in all.Its exhausting! she loves dance so much she would carry on forever think its just the impact it has on family life sometimes. also I think the way her teacher sometimes deliveries news is not great, as if she was an alien species with utterly deformed legs!!!!

[sarahw]

Dancer 123 you have fantastic insight so you'll be fine! !!

[HAIRBELLES]

Hi no one really ever know if their child is going to make "it" or not . Also "it" is different for every child.

Both my dds were JAs and I'd never heard of turnout until I'd been taking the 2nd one a couple of years.

I'm sure they test for available turnout as most at a young age are not strong enough to hold the turnout when dancing.

Turnout can be improved wth good training.

There is such a term as restricted turnout but it doesn't sound like your dd has this as she made the SWL and it wasn't mentioned in the feedback .

Good luck for this year.

[Foreverdrivingtodance]

Thanks so much! just a bit stressed today I think. Just find ballet so 'particular'!! just all these qualities that you are meant to have (small head etc) just seems so precise. To be a good footballer no one cares what shape legs you have!! Just think there must be soooo many lovely dancers that miss out on chances for reasons they cannot help. I am trying to enjoy our dance journey, but sometimes easier said than done!!! Also I was rubbish at pretty much most sports etc at school & do love the positives ballet gives her.Fitness,friendship etc

[HAIRBELLES]

I'll say it isDancer123..... I've put on a stone in weight since my dd left The Hammond last year I'm sure it was all the stress of auditions ,worrying about what was the best thing to do etc that kept it down

[sarahw]

Being a non dancing Dance Mum is very difficult I find.......

[amos73]

Sorry for being so negative! (her teacher is Russian & quite critical).I think as we are in our 11+ year & she is pretty clever just feel we are trapsing to quite a lot of ballet lessons,associates at the moment & trying to fit in school work.& she has 2 brothers with lots of stuff they do a husband who is away a lot so its pretty much me trying to juggle in all.Its exhausting! she loves dance so much she would carry on forever think its just the impact it has on family life sometimes. also I think the way her teacher sometimes deliveries news is not great, as if she was an alien species with utterly deformed legs!!!!

 

 

One thing jumps out at me from this "(her teacher is Russian and quite critical)".

 

My DD used to have a Russian teacher when she was 9/10 who always went on about her turnout, but didn't actually work much on helping her to know which muscles to engage and use, and which not to, just encouraged her to force her turnout from the feet. She ended up using wrong muscles (those that ironically turn you in!) and had to go to physio, do regular exercises etc. Physio confirmed there is nothing wrong her hips structurally, but she is a strong muscular little dancer and forcing turnout had weakened the muscles she should have been using, and strengthened the ones that did the opposite.

 

Ultimately she is now in full time vocational training, and her turnout is developing very well. It is a work in progress. However, impatience on the behalf of teachers who don't necessarily take the time to show students how to engage correct muscles to access and hold turnout will not help one bit!

[Foreverdrivingtodance]

amos73 that sounds quite similar!! not sure they work on it too much in class. Just feel like they are just always being shouted at to turnout but no sure DD really has a clue what she should be doing!! She goes to YDA associates & they do lots of exercises, which when we practise at home I can see her leg 'turning out 'we have only been there since September.We are quite late to taking ballet seriously ie more than once a week.So felt we had a lot of catching up to do.Just re-read her report from YDA & Klara Houdet who danced at that Paris Opera Ballet said lots of lovely things & that she had all the correct physical attributes. I no nothing about dance!! but maybe she would have mentioned it in report if it was a big problem.They have a proper assessment their on the 04.03.17 so perhaps I will wait & see what they say & then ask about physio. To the naked untrained eye can I tell what her turnout is like??

[Foreverdrivingtodance]

*know not no!!! rushed typing!

[amos73]

amos73 that sounds quite similar!! not sure they work on it too much in class. Just feel like they are just always being shouted at to turnout but no sure DD really has a clue what she should be doing!! She goes to YDA associates & they do lots of exercises, which when we practise at home I can see her leg 'turning out 'we have only been there since September.We are quite late to taking ballet seriously ie more than once a week.So felt we had a lot of catching up to do.Just re-read her report from YDA & Klara Houdet who danced at that Paris Opera Ballet said lots of lovely things & that she had all the correct physical attributes. I no nothing about dance!! but maybe she would have mentioned it in report if it was a big problem.They have a proper assessment their on the 04.03.17 so perhaps I will wait & see what they say & then ask about physio. To the naked untrained eye can I tell what her turnout is like??

 

 sending you a PM Dancer123

[joyofdance]

I love these posts and the responses as there is always something that resonates and they are so helpful and encouraging. My DD has been told that she has a natural turnout but that she doesnt maintain it. She has very flexible legs but  is not so flexible in her back. She is slim and has long slim legs but she isnt the classic ballet shape. She loves ballet but has resigned herself to never being a "serious" ballet dancer and enjoys other dance styles. On the plus side she has  been told that she has a beautiful presence on stage and has won musicality trophy's in several genre's of dancing so I encourage her to keep going. You never know, there may be a place for her somewhere in the dance world should she want that in the future. As a non dancing Mum I can not critique any dancer including my own DD, but I do know the difference between a dancer that is a joy to watch and a dancer that is pleasant but that doesnt quite move you. I also feel that so many things change with a developing body that you never know what the future holds and the comments about the journey being as important are so true so I will keep encouraging my daughter no matter what particular natural attribute she doesnt have.

Edited February 21, 2017 by joyofdance

[ballettaxi]

DD always had problems with her turnout until she started additional private classes with a specific teacher who also runs a gyrotonics practice.  She took the time to examine how DD was rotating in her hip and worked with her to develop specific exercises to allow this correct movement to become natural to her.  The difference is amazing.

 

Previously DD had, what I would refer to as slightly muscular legs as all the previous work she had done had been developing the wrong muscles - and the more she worked on it, the more she developed the wrong muscles.  Now both her teachers and I can see a massive difference in her legs and her turnout is fantastic.  (Her muscles are now much more 'long and lean' if that makes sense.)

 

She just has to remember that certain exercises in class don't work for her so she does her own at this time - much easier now she's older to 'do her own thing' and the fact that her teachers all understand why she's doing this. She's now secured a place to study full time from September and absolutely knows that this would not have been the case if she hadn't taken this time to re-educate her muscles.

 

Good luck to your DD 

[taxi4ballet]

Should I bother with the physio?? would the RBS be able to help sort it out or would they not accept someone unable to use their turnout??She is 9!!

They will not be worried about a child of that age who isn't yet physically strong enough to sustain turnout, and would check their facility to see what the maximum future potential turnout could be. They would expect an older teenager to be able to do it fairly consistently though.

[proballetdancer]

Hi Dancer 123

 

There  are a lot of misconceptions about Turnout, so many it sounds like some kind of quasi mystical Holy Grail or mythical beast. 

 

But to break it down simply - the degree of turnout is something we're all born with, it the degree of rotation of the leg in the hip socket. A newborn baby will have the same degree of turnout in the hip that it will when she's aged 90. It's fixed.

 

The ideal of ballet is flat or 180 degrees of turnout, simply when you stand in first position, your hips rotate out so that the feet on the floor are pointing away from each other in a straight line. Though I'm sure you already know this.

 

Now for the bad news, unfortunately yes, nowadays flat turnout 180 degrees or near as damn is mandatory for girls at least for entrance to top ballet companies or schools - and you are quite right to be pragmatic, it's unfair and arbitrary but it does revolve around an accident of birth.

 

If you want to know what her actual turnout capacity is then do take her to a physio that specialises in dancers, they will be able to measure her turnout capacity precisely - and from there you can make an informed decision.

 

But for a girl, you do have to be pragmatic anything less than 170 degree turnout a career in ballet is unlikely, though there are many other forms of dance, jazz, commercial, contemporary where the physical requirements aren't so draconian.

 

Turnout and flexibility are different, you can have tight muscles short tendons but still 180 degree turnout because of the angle which the top of the femur sits in the pelvis. Likewise you can have poor turnout and be very flexible.

 

Oh and yes, at all auditions at any level turnout will be measured and checked, more or less first and this does form the basis of decisions about students.

[proballetdancer]

Can I just add with the flexibility v turn out issue.

 

A common reason why children are assessed out at WL is precisely because they were taken for their perfect proportions and flat turn out, but their flexibility didn't improve or increase. 

 

The physical requirements for a ballet dancer really is a perfect storm of elements, but how bodies develop really is in the lap of the gods much of the time.

 

Which is hard for kids who've set their sights on something which hard work and determination can't control.

[Anna C]

Welcome to the forum, proballetdancer.

[BumbleBallerina]

Remember that the body changes LOTS as you grow and I know of people who what's gone from small amounts of turnout to almost having flat turnout, you just never know.