proballetdancer

This place is positively Soviet.

Okay, by 'top school' I meant Royal Ballet School, by company I meant Royal Ballet. I'm not being quarrelsome for the sake of being so. But did any of those children without the perfect physique make it into the stream of school and company?

Hi Cupcake, When you say she doesn't have it yet, I'm sure you mean she hasn't developed the strength to use it to its full capacity, yet. She will, for sure. But the potential and full range of movement is in the hip. By the time it comes to select for WL the pool of young dancers wanting places, especially girls, vastly exceeds the number available, as you know. They take the children with the best potential for a career in a top tier company. But I've no doubt that were I to look at your daughter, I'd see a young girl with a perfect physique, potential and full range of turnout movement. Which she was born with.

Well there you go, she didn't get into the school and her turnout wasn't sufficient for a career.

Yes, flat turnout is mandatory for entrance into the top ballet schools and companies. It's the first thing looked for in potential students. It's not a question of whether or not you start late, turn out capacity is something you're born with, a late starter can have a career is they have the physique, Michael Nunn started at 17. But the mandatory requirement is turnout. It's not an aesthetic, it's the position from which all ballet movement starts from. The aesthetic comes from the technique. I cannot say this enough, full turnout capacity is mandatory for entrance into the top vocational ballet schools and companies.

It's more a question of being accurate rather than safe in home measuring. The way turnout can be easily and safely measured is lying flat on your back on a raised surface such as a table with your legs dangling over the edge from the knee joint. Then gently rotating the leg supporting the ankle and knee inwards so it forms a sort of hinge, this allows it to be safely rotated with support in the socket and the degree of turnout measured. The reason why it's not a good idea to do this at home is because you won't have the measurement tools to properly calibrate the degree of rotation and also because people cheat to get a best case scenario. Either by warping the back, hips etc or forcing the leg. Also Anna, the problems you mentioned regarding flat turnout are a given, especially with young children, which is why excellent training is essential in order to build up the musculature in order to be able to control turnout. Dancer123, I'm sorry if you thought I was being confrontational, it's just you previously asked about turnout on the board and I was quite surprised you hadn't gone to a physio. You said you have and he's been most helpful, what did he/she say? It is very thoughtful of you to ask about measuring turnout for non ballet mothers, but like Anna said best left to the professionals. May I ask, how are your endeavours going you were seeking a place at vocational school again last time we were in contact.

Anna, the way the dance physios at ballet schools measure turnout is really simple, but I'm not going to put it here as I don't think it helps. People see what they want to see, that's why a good physio who can give unbiased advice is a godsend. For starters flat turnout is unmistakeable, you know as soon as a dancer stands at the barre (though there's far too much cheating that can go on, people say 'if you knees are pointing outwards etc - that's not the case, I've seen so many students, especially on Youtube grinding their hips, pelvis and knees into positions that approximate flat turnout - and then they can't move.) The OP's daughter clearly has flat turnout, otherwise her teacher would not have recommended her for JAs. For anyone wanting to know their child's turnout and potential, there is absolutely nothing better than going to an independent, good physio who specialises in dancers or who knows what the requirements are. It can save a huge amount of pain, money and heartache to be armed with facts.

You've asked this before and were told, the only way to get a definite and accurate measurement is to go to a physio who specialises in dancers. Anything else is an estimation. You said that her dance teacher estimated she had 'around 90%' of rotation which means she's in the 150 - 155 ish degree bracket, which is fine for other types of dance, but won't get a child into a ballet vocational school. Those schools want children who have the potential for a career in ballet, with the mandatory requirement of full flat 100 % turnout. The other problem is you asked her dance school teacher, who gave a guess-timate just looking at her and advised not to go to a physio, which was bad advice, I dare say because she wants your continued money for ballet classes. I would strongly, strongly advise you, since a year down the line you're still asking the same question, to go to a reputable, dance physio, and get a full physical work up including turnout (which cannot change) and physical potential.

Turnout the degree of rotation of the hip bone in the socket, the degree of rotation we're born with and that can't be changed. A ballet dancer must have the full range of rotation 90 degrees in each hip, so that when he or she stands in one of the five positions of ballet, their feet are at a right angle to the front of their body. For entrance into a top ballet school or company flat full turnout (hip rotation) is mandatory. And the saddest thing for thousands of would be ballet dancers is that it's completely in the hands of the gene gods, you're either born with it or you're not. If the teacher thinks she has a shot at JA then she must have flat turnout or else she wouldn't suggest she go forward for it.

It's not about level of technique at that age or huge flexibility. At the entrance level it's all about physical aptitude for ballet and potential. If your teacher thinks you should go for it, it's because your daughter has flat turnout in the hips, full rotation. Which is the primary and most important component of a ballet dancer, it's mandatory. Then physical body, length of leg, back, proportions etc then dance and movement ability comes into it. It doesn't matter how many hours she does at that age. As ruthless as it may sound the RBS looks for potential that will grow with training to be a dancer to enter the Royal Ballet or another top company. So, if your teacher has recommended your daughter try out for it, she clearly must think that she has the mandatory physicality and physical potential. Teachers see hundreds of pupils and rarely if ever put them forward for the RB associates or school, because they know what's being looked for, they don't want to appear inept to the RB teaching faculties by putting forward students they know don't have the physique and physical attributes demanded. Put her forward, the worst that can happen is she doesn't get in.

Another own goal scored by the insanity of third wave feminism.

How so? And if you find it distasteful, fine, but then avoid the discussion.

Why not, they're relevant to one another?

This is exactly why the current societal witch hunt and elevation of allegation over proof is so dangerous. There is NO case against Martins, indeed the 'allegations' were about his violent temper. There has never been any allegation of sexual impropriety. He had a longterm relationship with Heather Watts when he was 33 and she 17, and another with Darci Kistler when she was 20 and he 40, he went on to marry her and they've been together ever since. And both of these while he was a dancer not AD. Kistler and Watts were already leading principals by the time he took over with Robbins. Yes, it does seem a lot of dancers who felt slighted by Martins have made vague accusations, allegations in the wake of these completely unsubstantiated allegations. But absolutely nothing is rooted in any proof, indeed most don't even have a name to match the allegation. They've waited a long time to put the knife in.

The 'allegations' against Martins were just that, unsubstantiated, vindictive and anonymous. In any other climate apart from this hysterical witch hunt, they'd be dismissed out of hand, indeed wouldn't even make the press. These allegations are clearly the work of opportunists with axes to grind exploiting the zeitgeist. And one thing one can say about Martins, he knows how to keep a company, his dancers don't leave. Whatever internecine politics are going on within NYCB and ENB, clearly those affecting dancers and their relations with the AD in ENB are horrendous, you don't lost a third of your company if they're happy. Contrast that with the public outpouring of support and sadness from Martins' dancers and the subjective evidence is clear, where it matters within the company, Martins leadership is respected, Rojo's not.

I think you're being incredibly naive. An office relationship moreover is one thing and indeed there are many cases of companies which expressly prohibit relationships between colleagues, especially between boss and subordinate. But this isn't a generic 'office' romance. It's a high profile arts institution with an international reputation, where one woman has absolute control and power over careers and the entire company, one of whom she's engaging in a relationship with. This is different, the arts world is currently being 'rocked' (and I do feel that it's become a with hunt, with a level of social engineering, the end game of which is highly dubious), but a man simply wouldn't dare to instigate a relationship with a subordinate were he in a similar position of Rojo.

In the current climate if a male boss was engaged in a love affair with a much younger female colleague in a subordinate position, over whom he had a great deal of power, he'd be sacked or forced to resign. Also given Rojo makes more than any other AD in the UK including Kevin O'Hare where's the outcry over 'gender wage gaps'?

It was indeed the ballet that kept the opera afloat once upon a time, but that's long in the past.

Hi John, sorry you're right, my mistake I meant to type around 30%, it was the 'percentage' key being the shift+5 that lead me to press it twice. Ticket sales around 30 %.

Mixed bills don't sell if the run is longer than six performances. They also lose money, regardless of who the choreographer is. New three acters are huge financial risks, have to be shared between companies and don't pay for themselves for years. It doesn't matter whether the choreography is new, whether one likes or dislikes the work or personal preference - they lose money. Even if the RB programmed nothing but SL, Giselle, SB and R&J for a whole year and had 100% seat occupancy, the ROH would still lose money. The RB has to do at least 80% bankable three acters to keep its contribution to the coffers of the ROH significant. The majority of seats the really expensive ones which keep those revenues up are corporate designated, corporations don't care about innovation, difference or variety. They want recognisable ballet events. The thing is you have to get past the RB as being an artistic institution, it's not as David Bintley said, it's a business and the bottom line demands a conservative approach to casting, programming and production.

The RB for all its greater resources is actually far more restricted in many ways as it has to contribute to the running of the ROH, a hugely expensive enterprise. Ticket sales only cover about 50% of running costs the rest comes from subsidies, grants and corporate and private sponsors. The opera makes more than the ballet, the ticket prices are higher and it operates on a 95% occupancy of seats rate. Which gives it more leeway to experiment, have new productions and take risks in programming. The ballet has fewer performances, ticket prices are lower it operates on about 90% occupancy of seats rate and it contributes less to the running costs of the house as a whole. Therefore it has to ensure when it does sell and does programme seats are taken. The three acters are paid for, no new choreographer fees etc, belong to the house, only royalties need paying and the three act classics have an audience who ensure full occupancy. And most importantly the ticket prices are significantly higher than for a mixed bill or new choreography bill. A season of new choreography or programme sells for less, the seat revenue is eaten up by fees, can only be programmed for a limited run if they want to attempt maximum seat occupancy and a critical/audience failure is hugely expensive and has to be accounted for. In most cases by more three act programming.

I'm not 'exploiting' any rule. I'm not being rude or uncivil and I'm sorry you see it that way.

I wasn't 'trashing' stardancer at all, indeed she liked my post. I was commenting on the fact that she's clearly a mother who's deeply concerned about her daughter's future and welfare and for her ballet is not the issue, her daughter leading a pain free, healthy fully functioning life is. I was commenting on this case that perhaps telling her to inform her surgeon, whose own concerns will mirror hers, about her daughter's ballet level isn't the issue. Likewise, I won't rehash that previous thread, but I absolutely stand by everything I said. A child's health and future is vastly more important than ballet. End of.

Anna, if a surgeon is presented with a child with an injury so severe she can no longer walk normally, without pain, a limp or the leg failing entirely, where some form of permanent disability could be a likelihood and the mother makes an issue about her child's ballet career he's going to think the mother either callous to the point of abusive or crazy. I have no problem with good intentions and kindness, but like the mother whose daughter had been abused, undergone counselling and was prone to depressive episodes, insisting that all the daughter needed was better technique, sometimes ballet has to be put aside. Children's health physical and mental is paramount.

If a child has a cartilage injury so serious that she can no longer walk up stairs and which threatens to hinder her mobility for the rest of her life, I think where she's 'at' in terms of ballet is somewhat redundant and not the issue. The focus is on enabling her to live as mobile and pain free a life as possible, it's serious. Ballet is the least of 'stardancer's concerns I'm sure, she's a parent first, not a 'ballet mummy', as well it should be.