proballetdancer

To everyone questioning my confrontational post, the subsequent posts explain why I made it and why I stand by it. Your advice is merely reiterating the advice given to her several times. However, you failed to realise that she's been taken away from the abusive teacher and the psychological problems still remain, which the OP refuses to acknowledge as being deeply problematic and needing of attention and care, above dancing. Also a 'new school' will not help, the teacher may be worse, the teacher may be better, but the constant, an emotionally vulnerable child remains. The damage has been done and putting her back into school situations where the problems will only be exacerbated isn't the answer. The OP, the appropriately named "Muddledmama" has no desire for advice, she wants her own views reinforced, every answer she didn't like she'd come back with a response as to why her views are right, why the problem wasn't understood by us, and I have no doubt this board was just one of many pit stops taken on a bias confirmation tour on her part. My confrontational post directly challenged this behaviour and said enough of the game, and then she left. No doubt to find a new board, a new audience where she will start this cycle again. We have no knowledge of the daughter's true feelings about dance. We only have the mother's assertion it's her everything, the same mother who brushes off symptoms and descriptions of depressive mood cycles in a daughter who's been abused and undergone counselling - and we're indulging the notion of returning that daughter to the source of the abuse, another dance school. It's not healthy. And yes, I would be quite prepared to say this face to face and I didn't PM as Muddledmama had no intention of stopping these posts and this cycle on this thread, a PM would have been ignored or brushed off and the meat of this neurotic cycle would have continued here.

Let me ask you a question. Why is it so important to you, you personally that your daughter be a dancer? You don't need to repeat, we get all that, we understand perfectly. Again in this last response you speak continually of abuse, depression, moods and depressions which may take days to shake off as a result of past abuse - and the traumatic experience of adolescence exacerbating this. I'm quite shocked at how glibly you dismiss and shake off experiences and emotional states that should be concern, rather than helping her with her 'technique'. Again, you're not listening to anything anyone is saying here and apparently ignoring subliminal and not so subliminal unspoken prompts that this ongoing experience is damaging your daughter. Not least as many people have pointed out and AGAIN you choose to ignore, she's currently doing more dance than many 16+ year olds do in full time vocational training. An excess of training can be equally damaging to the body. None of your posts speak of a healthy situation, we have said as delicately as possible perhaps it's best if you act as authoritarian not accomplice and for her own health mental AND physical give her a rest. Which you absolutely refuse to do or take on board, you say she's fine then talk of depressive mood swings. So clearly your daughter the dancer is a concept which means more to you than I wonder if it does to her. So why is this so important to you? And it's not for her, if it was for her, you'd be giving her a break. She needs it. Kids don't articulate directly, there is no magic answer to technique or any other question. I'll repeat it one more time then I'm out of this conversation as I fear it's just feeding your neurosis and I dare say you've had this conversation again and again, we're just the latest target. For your child's sake give her a break. She will thank you for it in the long run.

I agree with Aileen. I really think it's time for some tough love for both of you, and assert your parental authority. Impose a moratorium on dance just for a couple of months, until March and spring, perhaps. Your lengthy posts are indicative of that mindset we all get in when we're beset by a seemingly intractable problem. We explain the problem at length, someone gives succinct advice (indeed here many people have given the same advice) and you come back with even lengthier responses as to why you can't follow that advice. Talking yourself back into the problem - who are you trying to convince? I don't say that to be hurtful or cruel, but to me and everyone else here it's clear you and your daughter appear to be horribly stressed, unhappy and by your own admission depressed. You say it doesn't take much to put your daughter back into that mindset. Well it's time to be a parent and take her out of the situation that's causing it - not just the dance school, but dance. For a couple of months, that's all. You need a break, both of you. Be kind enough to yourself and your daughter to make a cruel cut for the short term.

Lolly lamb1 It sounds like: a. you definitely were in a Vaganova technique class, with b. a teacher who had absolutely no desire to be there. Vaganova technique is a real shock to the system for Western trained dancers, it concentrates on deep muscular power, the secret to the Russians explosive jumps and leaps. The slow repetition of relevé, everything on demi pointe, repetition of small concentrated deep muscular movement ronde de jambes etc Grand battements on demi, all of it is an absolute killer if you're training has been based on Cecchetti, RAD or the US onus on Balanchine technique and the Danish Bournonville techniques, techniques which are about placement, terre a terre or speed, attack and lightness. Vaganova has to be taken incredibly carefully and the point and reasoning behind the exercises explained, as well as a teacher who takes the time and attention to explain how to engage the muscles and why. Your legs will be throbbing at the end of it. Indeed in Vaganova training it's not unusual for some teachers to take a term preparing their students to jump without ever leaving the floor. Months of just relevés. Unfortunately your teacher sounds like she knows what she was doing, but couldn't be bothered to explain why, for what purpose, to teach and didn't care about student safety, the grand battements on demi - she must have known, but just didn't care. Vaganova is a very interesting technique and can help improve deep muscular strength, but it has to be taken very slowly, with a teacher who wants to take the time and cares about the class. It sounds like you really didn't luck out with that teacher.

Forgive me for saying this but there seems to be a bit of cognitive dissonance here. You say she's no longer depressed but then gets gripped with self criticism and anger, you say she wants to be a dancer and has her whole life planned out, yet she won't join associate schemes due to these many issues. Again, it is impossible for anyone to give you any definite answers without seeing your daughter, her body type, her ability, assess her ability in class and see the quality of the training. Yes, technique can of course improve, but ballet technique improves in a professional direction for those kids with the genetic and physical talent for ballet, which covers a whole range of physiological traits which have to be there from birth. The other overriding impression I get is that you're driving yourself crazy and from your descriptions your daughter seems to be very conflicted too. Pups_mum suggested she take a break from dance and I think that'd be an excellent idea for both of you for a couple of months at least. Calm down, centre yourselves get a perspective away from these toxic situations and then in a clearer happier place make decisions then.

It's impossible to know without seeing your daughter dance, or without seeing her body, her ballet facility (which has rigorous mandatory standards for physical facility and type - which unfortunately you're born with.). Also, not actually seeing the teacher or the class taught, again it's impossible to tell. What does worry me is that why continue in something causing her so much pain, with a teacher who sounds pretty sadistic ( a lot of dance teachers in schools can be pretty rotten people, taking out their own failed careers and ambitions on their pupils.) Anything that causes a child to feel so horrendous and rotten that they need counselling isn't good, indeed can have devastating longterm mental health effects that last into adulthood. The only real advice to listen to is that if she wants to continue dancing then it must be for the love of it, with a teacher who respects her as a person and her love of dance and isn't using her to score points off of. I would advise you to find a new school which will just nurture her love of dance as a health and recreational activity and not put pressure on her and certainly not put her down, engage in ad hominem attack on a child or make disparaging remarks when she succeeds. I'm going to use the vernacular here, that woman sounds like a bitch, it's her problem not your daughter's. The CAT scheme with its focus on other non ballet forms of dance sounds ideal. Dump the teacher and school, not dance.

Michelle There is absolutely no way anyone can diagnose an injury from an internet message board, certainly not treat it. The water running down the leg sensation, yes, it is a symptom of damage to the arachnoid, but also disc damage, a whole load of neurological issues - which is why it is essential to get proper qualified medical help as soon as possible. How the injury occurred is immaterial, jumping off a wall, car accident etc but doctors are accustomed to seeing a whole host of injuries, illnesses over the course of their professional careers. Neither you nor I know that this is arachnoid related. Until you have a diagnosis it is essential that the injury is put under the least amount of stress, which means no pressure on the area, avoiding sitting for long periods of time and also physio which may do more damage than good, since no one knows what exactly they're manipulating. They may do more longterm damage than good. Also for this reason it's not beneficial to talk about dancers I know who've suffered from this complaint as we don't know you're injury is arachnoid related. I will repeat an injury that is not healing or getting better after nine weeks is serious. The body wants to heal, whatever is wrong needs referral and diagnosis and then a full treatment plan with neurologist, whether it be surgical, physio etc It needs professional medical care. I'm going to bow out from the boards again and won't be responding. I've said all that needs to be said. Please, one final time, seek referral from your GP and get this diagnosed asap.

Hi Michelle, I really can't answer that question properly, I'm not a doctor. When I read your description of your symptoms, it was a lightbulb moment, having heard those symptoms being described and seen the effects firsthand - but I don't know 100% that it's that and so it would be highly inappropriate of me to give you advice on an undiagnosed condition, not least because I don't have the knowledge. What I do know is that it is essential for you to get proper medical help and attention asap. I do sympathise with you, having a doctor who you don't know, who sounds a right arse and dismissed you with a prescription is horrible for self confidence and makes you feel very vulnerable, at a time when you feel vulnerable enough as it is being in agony. I do know that an injury that isn't getting any better on its own after 9 weeks is serious. Also it does sound as if your physio is aware of this, she did minor manipulation and then bizarrely told you to come back and even worse told you a doctor would refuse to operate. Utter nonsense. With an injury of this sort you do physio after treatment to build up the strength and flexibility again, never on top of an untreated injury, especially the hugely vulnerable lower back. Please, go back to the GP clinic, if they won't let you see another doctor, gird you loins and go in and fight for the medical treatment you deserve.

The symptoms Michelle describes I've seen firsthand many times, mainly in male dancers whose spines take a great deal of stress from lifting and landing. The fact Michelle said this occurred after jumping off a wall and landing set alarm bells ringing. That the pain increases after sitting is also a worry, disc or arachnoid, the mere act of sitting places huge stress on these injuries. I appreciate that this new GP sounds a nightmare, not least that he reached for the prescription pad and dismissed you, but please don't wait another two weeks in agony, albeit medicated. I really would urge you to go back to your GP asap and put the screws on. It's your back, your pain and your health.

I haven't posted in a very long time, but felt this is serious. It sounds as if you've done some form of disc damage or damage to the arachnoid membrane when you jumped down from the wall. They symptoms, especially the running water are consistent, ditto the pain in the legs, numbness tiredness, etc These injuries don't feel like back injuries as the majority of the pain is elsewhere but most definitely are. A physio is going to be of no help at this point, you absolutely must go back to your GP asap for a referral, or check yourself into A&E, tell them the cause of your injury, jumping and landing badly, a full list of your symptoms, absolutely the running water is a massive red flag, whoever said it sounded neuropathological is right. I'm astonished a physio is telling you not to seek medical help and that in the event of spine or disc damage they wouldn't operate on you. This woman is an idiot. Indeed if it is disc or arachnoid related manipulation is going to inflame the damaged area. This cannot be put off, you absolutely must seek the best medical help available asap, it will only get worse. Please I would ask you to got to your A&E give them the full history, the full range of symptoms and be blunt about the severity of your pain.

You know, I dipped my toe in this water, as help to dancer123, merely suggesting that for firm and definite answers she was not getting from her teacher, she might go to a professional dance physio who could answer her questions. Turn out is an essential, the full range of turn out an essential within the elite top schools and companies. I never for a moment suggested that less than full 180 degree turnout was essential across all schools, companies and dance careers. I also quite fairly said that dance is there to be enjoyed by children and perhaps if you got answers from someone who could give fair, professional pragmatic advice then dancer123's daughter could concentrate on loving dance. Waiting lists are all well and good, but there are thousands of children who spend their childhoods on waiting lists and it's soul destroying and as dancer123 mentioned she was not getting the answers she wanted. I shall now leave these boards, as I appear to have stepped on certain people's toes, though I would say to certain people a thick skin is required to survive in dance too, 180 degree turnout or not, just saying. Thank you for your hospitality and goodbye.

Please Tabitha, there's absolutely no reason to be so aggressive, especially to a new board member. That's not very welcoming and probably why actual professionals steer clear of technique boards. Though, please may I be so bold as to say, if you truly believe Tring is comparable to White Lodge or that the very basic physical requirement that is de rigeur within the top tier companies and institutions is NOT a given, then I must say, no offence, you are ill informed. Deeply so. Now, let's call this the end to it all and move on?

Tring is a good school, which specialises in a broader range of dance disciplines. 150 degrees is fine for non top level ballet companies and schools. But Tring is not WL, RBS, POBS, SAB, Vaganova, Bolshoi academy etc or any of the companies affiliated with the schools. I DID say that less than 180 is fine for other forms of dance, elite ballet is far more draconian and stringent with the basic requirements, there's too much competition and yes sadly many wonderful dancers are overlooked because they fail at the first hurdle of the perfect physique and attributes these schools demand. I do appreciate, tabitha why you've made these posts, but you have misrepresented the original message and it's most unfair that you're suggesting the stringent requirements of the top tier schools are not so. Please, desist.

And you measured their turn out? Yes, ballet is a combination of many factors, but turn out, the essential pre requisite is not a factor that's negotiable at top level schools and institutions. Please, I politely request that you don't put forward ill informed conjecture and bias as fact. It's not helpful, thank you. xx

Anecdotal at best, sorry.

It was Ruth French who played Odile to Fonteyn's early Odettes. French was a soloist with the Diaghilev company along with De Valois and danced with the Vic Wells in its start up days. Grey came along much later, she joined the company in 1941 by which time Fonteyn was dancing the full role. Grey was eight years younger than Fonteyn, she would only have been six or seven at the time Fonteyn started dancing Swan Lake.

Most likely though, the very successful brain surgeon will cut off all contact with her parents because they destroyed her childhood dream of becoming a ballerina.

I think though in a case like this, where the child is wanting to go through the constant year in year out process of auditioning for associate schemes, pre vocational schemes etc where there are rigid criteria about physicality, but only vague answers given as to why the child isn't getting through, it can be an immense help and also save a great deal of money in the longterm if independent, professional advice is sought about the child's physical potential. That way the child can then just dance for the love of dance and enjoy it for what it is.

Hi Dancer123 The problem is... sadly a lot of dance teachers, especially of the very young, don't have a well-rounded knowledge of anatomy. Saying 2nd and froggies doesn't help you very much, in fact who would that help, it's meaningless. Also as someone else said, just shouting at kids to squeeze their legs out doesn't help, especially not small kids who are trying to come to grips with some very complex physical ideas and issues. In vocational schools and associate schemes one of the biggest problems teachers have is undoing bad teaching, especially bad early teaching. When you get to your physio and as someone said it's probably best if you go to a physio who specialises in dance, here's what you need to say or ask. Just say, your daughter loves ballet and you're beginning to consider whether to go down the route of pre vocational and vocational training specialising in ballet, but first you want to know whether she has the basic physical requirements. firstly turnout - ask them to measure the degree of rotation in her hips and whether she has enough turnout to make a dance career focussing on ballet an option - 180 degrees of turnout ideally. They'll know what to look for and check and will give you a precise answer. Flexibility - you say she's very flexible, which I'm sure she has a good level of flexibility. Unfortunately now, hyper mobility and flexibility is the norm within ballet - ask to have her overall flexibility checked and also her potential - her joints, back, hamstrings etc And then really be pragmatic and ask the physio for a frank and honest physical - and this is why I think it's good to make sure your physio specialises in dance fitness - so you can ask about her basic physical aptitude for a career in ballet. And take it from there. I know it seems horribly blunt and unfair, she's a kid but kids are resilient and once initial disappointments wear off are far better at accepting and getting on with their lives and bouncing back than most grown ups are.

I'm sorry if I sounded a little blunt in the last post, but this is why I feel it's essential for anyone wanting to know for sure to visit a good dance physiotherapist who will measure the natural degree of turnout your child has - and from there you can make an informed decision armed with the facts. Balance Sports and Dance Physiotherapy is an excellent one in London: http://www.balancephysio.com/ If you live outside of London they'll be able to refer you.

I'm sorry this simply isn't true. The degree of turnout is fixed at birth, it's set. It's the physical position of the femur in the pelvis. You cannot be born with poor range of movement and suddenly develop full or flat turn out. Without surgery, it's impossible. What CAN and DOES happen is that with constant, professional training the muscles controlling turnout are developed to such a degree that the dancer's full range of motion is able to be used and controlled. It's a result of intensive training NOT changes in the skeletal structure. The friends you speak of clearly had good turnout, the full range of motion in their skeletal structure, but didn't have the muscular power to control it, with training they did. I really feel it's important to stress this again. You are born with your potential for turn out. It cannot be changed. You can develop and indeed must develop the necessary muscles to control and use turnout - that's what training is all about. The reason why turnout is so vital in ballet is because every step in ballet starts and ends in one of two positions or movement, the turn out used to plie or tendu. Turnout is your basic toolkit for ballet.

Can I just add with the flexibility v turn out issue. A common reason why children are assessed out at WL is precisely because they were taken for their perfect proportions and flat turn out, but their flexibility didn't improve or increase. The physical requirements for a ballet dancer really is a perfect storm of elements, but how bodies develop really is in the lap of the gods much of the time. Which is hard for kids who've set their sights on something which hard work and determination can't control.

Hi Dancer 123 There are a lot of misconceptions about Turnout, so many it sounds like some kind of quasi mystical Holy Grail or mythical beast. But to break it down simply - the degree of turnout is something we're all born with, it the degree of rotation of the leg in the hip socket. A newborn baby will have the same degree of turnout in the hip that it will when she's aged 90. It's fixed. The ideal of ballet is flat or 180 degrees of turnout, simply when you stand in first position, your hips rotate out so that the feet on the floor are pointing away from each other in a straight line. Though I'm sure you already know this. Now for the bad news, unfortunately yes, nowadays flat turnout 180 degrees or near as damn is mandatory for girls at least for entrance to top ballet companies or schools - and you are quite right to be pragmatic, it's unfair and arbitrary but it does revolve around an accident of birth. If you want to know what her actual turnout capacity is then do take her to a physio that specialises in dancers, they will be able to measure her turnout capacity precisely - and from there you can make an informed decision. But for a girl, you do have to be pragmatic anything less than 170 degree turnout a career in ballet is unlikely, though there are many other forms of dance, jazz, commercial, contemporary where the physical requirements aren't so draconian. Turnout and flexibility are different, you can have tight muscles short tendons but still 180 degree turnout because of the angle which the top of the femur sits in the pelvis. Likewise you can have poor turnout and be very flexible. Oh and yes, at all auditions at any level turnout will be measured and checked, more or less first and this does form the basis of decisions about students.