Bestfootforward

Hi Dancer123 In answer to your question, it was always an issue. We knew before she started JAs, as she has a very clued up teacher at home that told us it may prevent her getting in to JAs and vocational school etc, but because she had so many other strengths it was worth trying...so we did, and she always succeeded and got a place. However we never harboured a dream that she would be a ballet dancer. We just went with the flow knowing that a strong ballet foundation would stand her in the best stead for a dance career or MT career. In fairness, she was so strong at the other dance styles too and she loved them so restricting herself to ballet would have been the wrong thing anyway. At JAs the teacher loved her, particularly for her dance quality and performance skills and she was always heralded as the one to watch, but always with the acknowledgement that the turnout may well be an issue for ballet as a career. As I say, we never had any false hope or illlusion, and she has always known the score.

Reading through this thread I would just like to comment on what I see as some real misconceptions- firstly, that a place on SWL for RBS JA meansthat the child must have adequate turnout. My daughter does not have enough natural turnout range to be a ballet dancer, and she has never had because as detailed in my previous post, the hip angle and depth is simply too restricted. Nevertheless, she was a RBS JA, an Elmhurst associate and won multiple RAD ballet competitions. She gained an MDS to go to vocational ballet school, and has spent several years there, passing her appraisals every year. She is ridiculously flexible and always has been. But this does not change the fact that she would never make a ballet dancer. Do we have regrets about allowing her to go to ballet school? No, not really. She was essentially happy, loved the boarding experience, worked hard, made friends easily, and learnt a lot about independence and life skills. However, I would disagree with the poster that suggested that children at vocational school get a better education- this is certainly not the case, but that's for a different thread entirely. I would also disagree with the people who suggest that a child auditioning for the RBS JA scheme or similar are just dancing as a hobby. In my experience of my daughter and like minded friends, once the child gets that far they are normally showing enough potential for their teacher to suggest auditioning, then comes the hope and the waiting, and if you are lucky the offer of a place and the euphoria that follows. Suddenly the child is thrust into the world of fairly serious ballet tuition, large sums of money are invested and family life alters dramatically for most as parents travel long distances to get their child to class. New friends are made, siblings are affected, weekends disappear into a haze of journeys and snatched meals. For most kids and their parents, this is a happy, heady and exciting time, but as audition time for year 11 approaches, you realise that it's a long time since ballet and dance have been simply a hobby. I have witnessed many a child (encouraged by an over keen parent ) being bitterly disappointed because no one has ever been honest with them about their limitations- whether these be flexibility, turnout, feet etc. I regarded us as fortunate because we had a teacher who was honest at the outset, and we went into this world with our eyes open. As many have said, ballet is not the be all and end all of dance entertainment. Unfortunately once you are at ballet school, you are surrounded by people who that think it is and for those with limitations, this can be soul destroying. However, I've learnt that all vocational schools are not the same; that there are schools that nurture and value each child for themselves, and this gives the child a million times more help and confidence than blinkered ballet teachers screaming about turnout constantly. For this I am eternally grateful! Oh and my daughter also had clicky hips at both her baby checks and needed an ultrasound to exclude hip dislocation. Never in a million years were her hips ever going to dislocate!!! So clearly clicky hips and flat turnout do not necessarily go hand in hand. Most hips clicky during the newborn period are simply due to tendons making a snapping noise as the hips are examined

My daughter was aware of her turnout limitation at a very young age. This is a physical limitation - i.e. due to the shape of the acetabulum (hip socket) and the femoral head. The joint is deep and shaped such that rotation within the socket is limited. She has a ridiculous amount of "turn in" but limited turn out- the lottery of genetics! She is a beautiful and expressive dancer with hyper mobility in many of her joints and fantastic flexibility. She was a RBS JA, an associate of another highly regarded ballet institution and gained a place at vocational school from year 8. However, her turnout has always been an issue and she knew from the outset that the likelihood of being a ballet dancer was slim. Fast forward a few years and sure enough her turnout (or lack of) has featured in every report, appraisal and parent teacher consultation. She has always done well, but feels that her lack of turnout defined her and this has dented her confidence. She has also been frustrated by narrow minded teachers getting her to force her turnout which is both dangerous and painful. She is still at vocational school, but hoping to follow a more varied dance pathway and is thriving now that the ballet has been "put to bed". True lack of turnout i.e. Physical restriction IS an obstacle to a ballet career. Yes, exercises can be done to try and loosen up the hips, but you cannot loosen a bony restriction. Yes, a good teacher can work with the child to make their lines more aesthetically pleasing, and yes artistry is equally as important as turnout. However, at the end of the day, ballet dancing and turnout go hand in hand, and it is important that teachers are realistic and open with the child and parent about physical limitations and career potential.

My daughter has this sort of hair and with practice and routine we managed to not only weather the storm of festivals, but also vocational school where she has had to do her hair herself every morning from age 11. Several things worked for us, firstly for the dance days where hair needs to be really smooth, invest in a water spray bottle, a small metallic nit comb, some decent gel spray eg the VO5 one in a blue bottle, and some good silicon hair bands (Superdrug). Use the water spray to basically get things under control, and brush the hair very firmly (brute force required in our case) to get it into a ponytail. You really do need to use some force to keep it in and initially we had tears but she was stoic and eventually we would giggle about it whilst I did this part. Before you put the bobble in use a normal but fine comb to comb all the hair on the crown toward the ponytail (should then start to look a bit smoother. You should still be holding the ponytail tight with one hand. When it looks smooth you may need to readjust the pony tail to make it tighter as the hair smooths. Then still holding the ponytail, spray a small amount of gelspray all over the crown and comb it back towards the ponytail again with the nit comb this time. Again readjust the ponytail. Then keeping the tension on the ponytail, put the bobble on. This takes a bit of practice as it's difficult to keep the tension on with one hand and put the bobble on tight with the other. You just get better at it as time goes on. Make sure the bobble is as tight as possible, Then reapply gel spray to the crown and use the nit comb to comb towards the ponytail again, repeat a couple more times. Then do the bun using good long pins, proper hair pins not Bobby pins, twirl the hair round, pinning very sparingly as you go (just 3 or 4 initially). You shouldn't need too many pins and you will need practice with this again. Then hit the bun gently with the back of a hairbrush to flatten it out and use more pins to secure properly (again not too many). Go back to the crown and respray and comb. Take comb and spray everywhere with you!! The hair will be set like concrete and you will need to wash it more frequently, but we found that using quality products did actually help. Also using the hair oil you can buy everywhere now on the ends after washing really helps.

It's also a good idea to find out about what the boarding entails. The different schools offer very different set ups, and some of these may not be what you and your child want. Large numbers sharing rooms can be difficult for those pupils who take their academics seriously and want to study, or get an early night. Also if a child values their own space, again sharing rooms may not work. Some schools don't actually offer school accommodation to 6th formers, and some pupils prefer to stay with a host family where they can have their own room and escape some of the tensions that inevitably occur with boarding. It's all good for thought and worth careful consideration. Staying with a host family can halve the cost of accommodation and work out very well for the child. Good luck with your research

The accommodation costs are separate and can be very expensive. At one particular vocational school we looked at boarding alone is almost £13K, and in most cases this has to be found by the parents as you have to be on a relatively low income to get any help.

Freed are probably the softest and easiest to "work in". Our dance teacher always recommends that students buy them for their first soft blocks. My daughter has found them comfortable and fairly long lasting. She says she would never try anything else. She also has supremely thin feet with narrow heels. They come in a range of widths and the narrowest fit her feet perfectly.

Freed are probably the softest and easiest to "work in". Our dance teacher always recommends that students buy them for their first soft blocks. My daughter has found them comfortable and fairly long lasting. She says she would never try anything else. She also has supremely thin feet with narrow heels. They come in a range of widths and the narrowest fit her feet perfectly.

I have a character skirt suitable for a small year 7/8. Custom made by Dancing Boutique. Please PM me for detailed sizing if interested

Everyone has given very good advice on here, and I think that those of us with kids at vocational school are well aware that there is always a trade off with academics, namely less choice and the child will come out with fewer GCSEs. However, I think none of us are prepared for suboptimal academic standards and nor should we be. When my child started at vocational school we were assured that small class sizes (which they are) and excellent teaching would mean that she would reach her maximum academic potential. This has sadly not been the case. We have raised concerns, both at parents evenings and in private meetings, we have complained and we have practically begged for help. Most of the time we have been patted on the head and assured that it will all be ok. It is only now (with 1 year to go) that we have made any sort of progress, and only in one subject. This elite school with the wonderful reputation has let my child (and us) down very badly. I get the feeling that I am talking about the same school as the original poster, and I agree with all the concerns raised. We are on an MDS, but we struggle to afford the contributions and we do not feel that we have had value for money in any way. There may be a scarcity of teachers, but up until this year the posts have been full as far as I am aware- yet if you speak to many of the parents of children in older years they will tell you that they are in no way happy with the academic standards. My advice to the parents of children considering vocational school at 11 is do not believe the hype. Talk to the parents of children who have been there a long time (years 10 and 11) rather than the year 7 parents. Find out what they think of the academic teaching, the pastoral care, the dance tuition, and equally importantly the performance opportunities. Ask them to be honest with you. This will give you the best indication of what standards are like. My child has had a great experience and I would not necessarily have changed it, but I do think we were blinded by the reputation and the hard sell. Look deeper before you leap!!

My child didn't go to WL final but was offered an MA place. At the same time, there were children who went to WL final who did not get a WL place and were not offered an MA place.

Fantastic SS. My child did it and absolutely loved it. Ballet class every day in addition to lots of jazz and contemporary. Superb teachers and a real mix of children there from all different dance backgrounds- mainly non- vocational. Very friendly atmosphere, and a great show at the end of the week which showed some superb choreography and very talented children.

As someone who's child did choose vocational training at 11, I would say that it has been a hugely positive experience so far for everyone concerned. Yes, we missed her dreadfully (and still do at times several years on), and yes it can be tough when there are "issues" and you are not on the doorstep. Yes, it's expensive and yes sometimes the feeling of not quite being in control is very frustrating. However, she has learned to be resourceful, strong and focussed. She has adored the boarding experience and learned how to get along with all sorts of people and difficult personalities. She has learned how to deal with problems and academic pressures, appraisal stress and friends who need support. She has made friendships that will last a lifetime. She feels part of a very extended family. Have any of us missed out on family life?? I would say no. Our family life over the last few years has certainly been different, but different is not necessarily bad. We have missed out on the arguments about getting up in time for school, missing the bus and not doing homework. We don't have heated discussions about untidy rooms and unsuitable friends/ curfew issues. When she comes home our time together is relaxed and rewarding. She has many humorous tales to tell us about boarding antics and high jinks. She shares with us both the problems she encounters and the happy news. She is animated, articulate and mature, and without doubt her life has been enriched by this experience. We are proud of the person she has become and the way it has shaped her. So to those people wondering about whether it's the right thing at 11- I would say if you get the opportunity and the child is keen to try then seize it with both hands. The situation is not irreversible if it doesn't work out. Be led by your child.

Bluebird, I think the last one you describe may be utilised to see the relative length of the Achilles' tendons .

My daughter has been a RBS JA and was also offered a mid associate place at 11 which she chose not to accept as she had other plans. She certainly does not have and will never have hyperextended knees, and in fact her knees are quite the opposite in that they look 'bent' even when they are straight. This obviously affects her lines and she has to work extremely hard to try and achieve and maintain a straight leg appearance. However, she does have amazing elevation, good feet and a beautiful performance quality and I think this is why she was selected both times. She never tried for SA. I don't think there's any danger of her ever being selected for the Royal Ballet company and agree with those people who are saying that it would be rare or unheard of for a dancer without knee hyperextension to be given a contract there. However to all parents of hopeful JA, MA and SA children, don't give up hope if they haven't got hyperextended knees- it's a much safer construction not to have them and they may well still get a place if they have other desirable qualities.

Laine offer a choice of 2 weeks in the summer, and students choose from either MT or dance course. The MT seemed to be mainly singing and acting with some (limited) dance, and the dance was (as you would expect) focussed more on the dance genres with no particular acting or singing. The two courses ran in parallel and a joint show was put on at the end of the week. The course ran Monday to Saturday. My child did this two years ago and loved every minute. She is currently at vocational school and wanted a change from the ballet focussed summer schools. We chose Laine as it is relatively near and had a good Summer School reputation. We were not disappointed, as she had a fabulous experience. She chose the dance course and did a ballet class every morning, followed by jazz classes, contemporary and some tap. This was what she wanted, and she described each and every class and teacher (regular school teachers, not visitors) as being amazing. She was buzzing every night when she phoned! The MT obviously had a different emphasis, but again the children appeared to be having a ball, learning lots, and the acting and singing skills on show were astonishingly good. I think they also had a ballet class every day and some jazz. The standard across both groups was extremely high. The show was not the whole emphasis, although they did do work towards it every afternoon, but this was built in to their learning and became part of the course. Each group was further split into 3 groups (on age) to learn their dances/ parts for the show. The choreography for both the ballet and jazz dances were amazing beyond belief. What struck me was how happy all the children seemed and how they seemed to have made good friends quickly. There was an emphasis on teamwork and learning, and my daughter described it as her best experience ever (and she's had some good ones)! We were very impressed with the AD who came out and spoke to us all on show day. The school clearly has a strong ballet focus, and he told us that he felt every child in every school in England should start with a one hour ballet class every day as the life long benefits of poise, discipline, posture and fitness cannot be underestimated. An interesting concept! There was an optional west end theatre visit one evening with a choice of two performances (chosen several months before). They also met in Epsom for a meal on the last night. Epsom is a nice little town with some small ish high st stores and nice eating places. It felt safe and my daughter at 13 was comfortable walking around with her friends. Accommodation is with host families, and is a good introduction to how things might be if you choose one of these schools. The school allocated the family, and there was an option to ask to share with a friend who was also on the course. My daughter stayed in a group of 5 and was driven into school every day by the landlady. I think we paid £125 for the week to include meals. Reactions to the host families were mixed and some were more friendly and welcoming than others. There was a range of experiences with freedom, meal content and ways of running things. The show on the Saturday lasted an hour and was like a breath of fresh air. Superb MT and dance performances, great choreography, lovely costumes and very happy children. All in all, I can highly recommend Laines SS. It was well run, fun and she learnt loads. Teaching was amazing, and they got to meet and work with the full time students which was very inspiring and motivating. The show was wonderful and it was good to see such an emphasis on performance. Plus, they really do rate the ballet there. A high standard of technique is really appreciated,

This is now sold

I investigated this when my daughter went to vocational school in year 7. Most household insurance policies do allow for students to be included as an extra "cost", but all the ones I spoke to would only cover students in higher education eg at University. A young vocational student living away from home was not eligible and I have since spoken to friends since who have found this to be the case. I eventually took out insurance with SFS group who specialise in this kind of policy. Search for them on the Internet. They are relatively cheap and provide a flexible array of cover depending on what you want to include. They only cover the stuff during term time, so you need to just make sure that the items are covered under your household policy during holidays (this was the case for us automatically so no extra costs). On the one occasion we needed to use them (smashed iPhone) there was no issue and we have been very happy with the policy.

I am selling a beautifully made, portable barre which was purchased from "The Barre". It has very minimal usage in a private home and is in beautiful condition. The barre is 1.5m long and we bought it because it was a lot more attractive than the more widely available black ones. It is in soft cream, and looks lovely in a bedroom or even a downstairs room. If you view "The Barre" website you will see photos, and that it retails at £175. This really is a high quality product and one that you would be happy to have sitting in your home. I am selling for £80, buyer to collect. Please PM me if interested. I am situated in more or less the centre of the country. Manchester, Liverpool, Birmingham and Nottingham all within easy access.

Grand Battemum have sent you a PM

I am selling one. Feel free to PM me if interested.

The vocational school life is different for sure, but in my opinion it can be a fulfilling route to a dance career and adulthood. You are correct in saying that vocational children don't get to meet friends in the evening after school and live a "normal" life in that way, but they can live an equally fulfilling and rewarding life socially and indeed, the friendships they make are intense and often last a lifetime. They learn the valuable lessons of how to live with more difficult people, how to create space for themselves, and how to get their life organised efficiently. Like you, we had no intention of sending our child away from home at 11, but she was intent and we were also concerned about the way she would integrate into a normal high school because people didn't really "get" her drive and determination to dance. We have missed her terribly at times, but she adjusted surprisingly well (as did we), and when I hear parents at work discussing the problems they have with getting children out to school in the morning (and the arguments that ensue), alongside battles about friends, curfew times etc I am happy that we did the right thing. No set up is ever perfect, but when our daughter comes home, the time we spend together is precious and fun, and on the whole runs smoothly for all. We are less stressed (if a little more skint!) and it is a joy to see her developing into an independent young woman with very close friendships and an appreciation of her family life. There will always be children who don't settle, or who struggle with the lack of personal space or homesickness, but for the right child the vocational route is a good one. And as someone has already said, it's reversible if it doesn't suit!

My daughter is also hyper mobile and can achieve perfect box splits with very little effort. However she has a limited true ballet turnout. Some children we know have reasonable turnout but cannot achieve box splits no matter how hard they try.

My daughter also has very difficult feet to fit in every way that you describe apart from hers are super narrow with a heel that shrinks almost to nothing. We were also told to get some custom made shoes by one teacher as we would never get any to fit correctly. Over the years, with time and a fitter that likes a challenge she has been able to find a suitable shoe from Freed, Suffolk, Bloch, Grishko and Russian Pointe. Her very picky local teacher has been happy with them all, and although we have spent ages in fittings, the vast majority of makers can produce a shoe that suits her. The generalisation about Grishko is surprising as (like other manufacturers) they make a wide range of very different shoes in an equally wide range of widths. Different vamps, shanks etc. I would advise you spend a long time with a fitter who does an appointment system and is prepared to dedicate the time to helping you and has plenty of choice, find the best shoe for her and then if it's not perfect they can advise on how it should be customised for her foot.