Turnout!

[proballetdancer]

Remember that the body changes LOTS as you grow and I know of people who what's gone from small amounts of turnout to almost having flat turnout, you just never know.

 

I'm sorry this simply isn't true. The degree of turnout is fixed at birth, it's set. It's the physical position of the femur in the pelvis. You cannot be born with poor range of movement and suddenly develop full or flat turn out. Without surgery, it's impossible.

 

What CAN and DOES happen is that with constant, professional training the muscles controlling turnout are developed to such a degree that the dancer's full range of motion is able to be used and controlled. It's a result of intensive training NOT changes in the skeletal structure.

 

The friends you speak of clearly had good turnout, the full range of motion in their skeletal structure, but didn't have the muscular power to control it, with training they did.

 

I really feel it's important to stress this again. You are born with your potential for turn out. It cannot be changed. You can develop and indeed must develop the necessary muscles to control and use turnout - that's what training is all about.

 

The reason why turnout is so vital in ballet is because every step in ballet starts and ends in one of two positions or movement, the turn out used to plie or tendu. 

 

Turnout is your basic toolkit for ballet.

[Anna C]

I agree - nothing you can do with the basic structure and shape of the bones in the hip joint and how they are connected. I have hypermobile hips and despite middle-age approaching, plus tight tendons and widespread muscle issues from disability, I still have 180 degree "flat" turnout. Just the way my hips are designed.

 

As proballetdancer and others have said, it is possible to improve flexibility, ligament strength (to protect very lax joints), and strength. This being extremely important because even if you have flat turnout, if you don't have the strength to engage the correct body parts, *actively* turn out and HOLD the turnout, it's of limited use.

 

It's well worth checking whether there is an anatomical issue like the underlying structure, or whether it's a strength and/or flexibility problem. And so important to remember that even if a career as a ballet dancer is not possible due to physique, there are so many other dance forms and careers in dance, or not in dance, but continuing to take ballet class for as long as you want.

[proballetdancer]

I'm sorry if I sounded a little blunt in the last post, but this is why I feel it's essential for anyone wanting to know for sure to visit a good dance physiotherapist who will measure the natural degree of turnout your child has - and from there you can make an informed decision armed with the facts.

 

Balance Sports and Dance Physiotherapy is an excellent one in London:

 

http://www.balancephysio.com/

 

If you live outside of London they'll be able to refer you.

[TYR]

"Not sure they work on it too much in class. Just feel like they are just always being shouted at to turnout but no sure DD really has a clue what she should be doing!! She goes to YDA associates & they do lots of exercises, which when we practise at home I can see her leg turning out"

 

If you don't have any skeletal restriction, it's a combination of strength and skill and therefore you can improve it. If you've not been specifically training it, the good news is you can look forward to progress now you're doing it.

 

Mine has improved hugely in a year with a bit of effort (although I spent a couple of decades wearing out shoes on the inside of the heel before I discovered it could be either useful or enjoyable, so...)

[Tulip]

My daughter has natural turn out, but even at vocational school my daughter went to a private teacher ex professional dancer who taught her on a one to one, what muscles to engage when using her turn out. Even when she was at lower vocational school she was not taught properly how to engage these muscles. Her private teacher would touch her, instruct verbally to squeeze and hold. By the time she got to Central she had achieved the skill to fully hold and use her flat turn out. It took years of correct training for her to fully use and engage her natural turn out correctly, shouting out turn out, turn out isn't going to work.

[Foreverdrivingtodance]

Have managed to get a physio appointment today so will see what they say.Bravely spoke to her teacher yesterday who said in 2nd & froggies its fine, sometimes moving through other positions. What should I be asking physio?? she will probably think I am a complete nutter taking a 9 year old!!!

[Tulip]

Is it a dance physio, it would be best if it was as they will understand more.

[Colman]

Surely if it's fine some of the time then it's simply that she's not able to use it the rest of the time?

[MumToTu]

Hi dancer 123, I like you was concerned about turnout when my dd was the same age. I noticed at the barre in her class she was hardly turning her feet out at all and could not understand why. It was that bad even i noticed it and despite her having completely flat box splits at that time. In fact it still confuses me a bit but I have never studied ballet and am easily confused I don't know if her being constantly told at gymnastics to keep her feet completely parallel for landings on beam, tumbling etc didn't help....! And she never practised any butterfly type type stretches. Training gymnastics is not ideal, for ballet we have since learned.

 

She too, like you say your dd has been until recently, only taking one grade 2 ballet class a week. She did practise her splits at gymnastics though.

 

3 years on after a lot more practise she looks turned out at the barre now, so i had no reason to even worry! This happened very gradually and she's always been ridiculously strict with herself not cheat, too strict i think sometimes...she's very conscious about never injuring herself, so probuably worked the right muscles etc, so she can hold it in the centre with her leg out in 90 really well, well this is according to her reports anyway!! So, you have to trust the process it will come.

 

Maybe your dds teacher knows she could turnout more? but is having to remind her in class at barre to use her full capicity? she might not understand it's importance and realise she's not turning out. I am sure a teacher wouldn't be telling her to turnout more if there was a physical reason she couldn't?

 

Good luck at the physio I am sure she doesnt have restricted turnout if her teacher says she's fine in stretches! she hopefully though lack of experience hadn't learnt how to use it properly yet, it is a very slow process and I can imagine it takes years to master fully...

 

It's not easy being a non dancing mum is it with non dancing lively younger siblings in tow can sympathise there too

[proballetdancer]

Have managed to get a physio appointment today so will see what they say.Bravely spoke to her teacher yesterday who said in 2nd & froggies its fine, sometimes moving through other positions. What should I be asking physio?? she will probably think I am a complete nutter taking a 9 year old!!!

 

Hi Dancer123

 

The problem is... sadly a lot of dance teachers, especially of the very young, don't have a well-rounded knowledge of anatomy. Saying 2nd and froggies doesn't help you very much, in fact who would that help, it's meaningless.

 

Also as someone else said, just shouting at kids to squeeze their legs out doesn't help, especially not small kids who are trying to come to grips with some very complex physical ideas and issues.

 

In vocational schools and associate schemes one of the biggest problems teachers have is undoing bad teaching, especially bad early teaching.

 

When you get to your physio and as someone said it's probably best if you go to a physio who specialises in dance, here's what you need to say or ask.

 

Just say, your daughter loves ballet and you're beginning to consider whether to go down the route of pre vocational and vocational training specialising in ballet, but first you want to know whether she has the basic physical requirements.

 

firstly turnout - ask them to measure the degree of rotation in her hips and whether she has enough turnout to make a dance career focussing on ballet an option - 180 degrees of turnout ideally. They'll know what to look for and check and will give you a precise answer.

 

Flexibility - you say she's very flexible, which I'm sure she has a good level of flexibility. Unfortunately now, hyper mobility and flexibility is the norm within ballet - ask to have her overall flexibility checked and also her potential - her joints, back, hamstrings etc

 

And then really be pragmatic and ask the physio for a frank and honest physical - and this is why I think it's good to make sure your physio specialises in dance fitness - so you can ask about her basic physical aptitude for a career in ballet.

 

And take it from there. I know it seems horribly blunt and unfair, she's a kid but kids are resilient and once initial disappointments wear off are far better at accepting and getting on with their lives and bouncing back than most grown ups are.

[Foreverdrivingtodance]

Physio has rung to cancel appointment! great will have to wait until next week now!

[Colman]

Focusing so much on a single strand of the possible careers in dance for a 9 year old seems positively unhealthy to me. Let her have her fun and see where it goes, within the resources (time and money and balancing needs of rest of family) you can afford to give her. I wanted to be an astronaut at that age. (And I have a just about 9 year old boy who somehow has got to 9-10 hours of dance a week who I rather suspect is never going to have the physique for a ballet dancer. We'll see where it goes. Some days he wants to be a dancer, some days he wants to be an archeologist. Maybe ballet will give him the skills he needs to leap chasms in buried tombs and dodge traps.)

 

It occurs to me that if she's only started doing more than one class a week recently she hasn't had time to strengthen those muscles anyway. An hour a week isn't enough.

[dramascientist]

Sometimes flat turnout can also be a curse. I was born with "clicking hips", tendons so loose that the head of my femur would "fall out" of the socket. Of course as a dancer I was flat turned out and because my mother was my teacher she was able to teach me how to control my very loose tendons. However, as I have got older and I only do one class a week teaching a fun ballet class I have noticed that the strength is going and sometimes I feel like my hip is not quite in the right place and can bother me. When my DD was born they were concerned she had the same problem but in the end they said they thought it was okay. So once again 180° turnout but sometimes she gets a niggle in her hip too, particularly when she is training, rehearsing hard. So be careful what you wish for I guess I am saying, just as with hyperextension needing a lot more strength, flat turnout can have its problems too.

[proballetdancer]

Focusing so much on a single strand of the possible careers in dance for a 9 year old seems positively unhealthy to me. Let her have her fun and see where it goes, within the resources (time and money and balancing needs of rest of family) you can afford to give her. I wanted to be an astronaut at that age. (And I have a just about 9 year old boy who somehow has got to 9-10 hours of dance a week who I rather suspect is never going to have the physique for a ballet dancer. We'll see where it goes. Some days he wants to be a dancer, some days he wants to be an archeologist. Maybe ballet will give him the skills he needs to leap chasms in buried tombs and dodge traps.)

 

It occurs to me that if she's only started doing more than one class a week recently she hasn't had time to strengthen those muscles anyway. An hour a week isn't enough.

 

I think though in a case like this, where the child is wanting to go through the constant year in year out process of auditioning for associate schemes, pre vocational schemes etc where there are rigid criteria about physicality, but only vague answers given as to why the child isn't getting through, it can be an immense help and also save a great deal of money in the longterm if independent, professional advice is sought about the child's physical potential.

 

That way the child can then just dance for the love of dance and enjoy it for what it is.

[Petalviolet]

That is an excellent point proballetdancer, especially for a non dancing parent who simply cannot SEE a turned out dance step. Turn out is the foundation of good solid ballet technique and if you don't recognise that and all you can appreciate are pretty arms and a nice face and being in time with the music you can understand its sometimes disappointing and frustrating for children and parents alike?

 

I can see what a turned out hip looks like if a child is in 1st or from a pose for an audition photograph but when the child starts moving from step to step - it's a mystery. I can see that the steps maybe flow a bit better or look smoother but that's only a general impression. If the bit above the tutu skirt seems in good order to me it gets a thumbs up and then I turn to my ballet chum with a face of sage and wise expert opinion "oh yes that was a lovely dance etc" and see their face of horror then have them start to guffaw..possibly a look of pity, an eye roll, pat on the arm..

 

OR I see a dance that seems composed of mostly sliding from left to right or jumping left to right (sorry that's the best way I can describe it...less twiddly more straighty) and I don't rate it at all but it scores very highly, what the choreography is probably showing is a simple dance utilising a child's naturally good turn out which is appreciated by an adjudicator more highly than say...eyes and teeth and pretty arms. It's much harder to turn out so it should be but as a non dancer I don't get that.

[aileen]

I agree with proballetdancer. Training for a career as a classical ballet dancer is intensive, time-consuming and expensive. It has an impact on the rest of the family, particularly siblings, if parental time, energy and financial resources are disproportionately directed to the aspiring ballerina. If a parent can establish early on that a child has a major impediment to a career in clasdical ballet then it takes off the pressure and, as proballetdancer says, s/he can relax and just enjoy his/her dance rather than seek out more and more classes, private lessons, associate schemes and holiday courses in the hope of one day securing a place at a vocational school and a company position.

[Petalviolet]

Exactly. To paraphrase for all the non dancers or less adulty adults amongst us;

 

If the straighty bits can't or won't stay straight then all the twiddling will do is impress the likes of mum and dad and that's just fine but better get that sorted whilst your little so you can enjoy lovely ballet and also become a very successful brain surgeon who will pay for mum and dad to go on lots of lovely cruises in their old age or get Invisalign braces, liposuction and a facelift which is what I urgently need.

[taxi4ballet]

Sometimes flat turnout can also be a curse. I was born with "clicking hips", tendons so loose that the head of my femur would "fall out" of the socket. Of course as a dancer I was flat turned out and because my mother was my teacher she was able to teach me how to control my very loose tendons. However, as I have got older and I only do one class a week teaching a fun ballet class I have noticed that the strength is going and sometimes I feel like my hip is not quite in the right place and can bother me. When my DD was born they were concerned she had the same problem but in the end they said they thought it was okay. So once again 180° turnout but sometimes she gets a niggle in her hip too, particularly when she is training, rehearsing hard. So be careful what you wish for I guess I am saying, just as with hyperextension needing a lot more strength, flat turnout can have its problems too.

This is interesting - when my dd was a newborn, the neonatal paediatrician must have checked her hips 4 or 5 times over several days (and asked a colleague to do so as well) because her hips were so mobile. It turned out (haha - see what I did there!) that she had completely flat turnout and the people at the hospital weren't used to finding anybody whose hips were made that way. 

[proballetdancer]

Exactly. To paraphrase for all the non dancers or less adulty adults amongst us;

 

If the straighty bits can't or won't stay straight then all the twiddling will do is impress the likes of mum and dad and that's just fine but better get that sorted whilst your little so you can enjoy lovely ballet and also become a very successful brain surgeon who will pay for mum and dad to go on lots of lovely cruises in their old age or get Invisalign braces, liposuction and a facelift which is what I urgently need.

 

Most likely though, the very successful brain surgeon will cut off all contact with her parents because they destroyed her childhood dream of becoming a ballerina. 

[sarahw]

I think proballetdancer and PV have the makings of a good comedy duo.....

[Petalviolet]

That's what the P in PV stands for..Pro.

 

Ok it doesn't.

[LoobyLou]

Proballetdancer: "Most likely though, the very successful brain surgeon will cut off all contact with her parents because they destroyed her childhood dream of becoming a ballerina."

 

????So true! I was so cross with my mum for telling me in my late teens that she'd made the decision not to let me audition for WL. My teacher had wanted to send me, had begged her to send me, but mum told her there was no way I'd go off to boarding school, that she had to drag me in fact into my tiny primary school every morning crying my eyes out not wanting to go! It was true of course and now I understand but at the time I was mad!!!

[TYR]

"Taxi, I have some important news about your daughter. It seems from the X-rays that she may be an alien. On the other hand, have you signed her up for ballet?"

[Guest]

This is interesting - when my dd was a newborn, the neonatal paediatrician must have checked her hips 4 or 5 times over several days (and asked a colleague to do so as well) because her hips were so mobile. It turned out (haha - see what I did there!) that she had completely flat turnout and the people at the hospital weren't used to finding anybody whose hips were made that way. 

Had exactly the same experience with dd at age 6 month assessment. The poor GP freaked and sent us off for an emergency xray because of unusual degree of hip mobility. It hadn't been picked up earlier because she had been extremely ill in SCBU as a newborn. I assumed it was yet another knock back and when they couldn't find anything structural just heaved sigh of relief and forgot it. Until years later when I first heard about turn out.

[taxi4ballet]

"Taxi, I have some important news about your daughter. It seems from the X-rays that she may be an alien. On the other hand, have you signed her up for ballet?"

Well... my mum made me go to ballet classes because she'd wanted to when she was a child, and never did. I was rubbish, no turnout at all and couldn't even plie properly, and I hated it because I couldn't do what the other kids could do.

 

The funny thing is... when I was looking down at my new dd in her cot, I distinctly remember thinking: "If only I'd had hips like that, I might have actually liked ballet."

 

It certainly wan't me she inherited them from!   

[Petalviolet]

Do you think some children are born with a natural inclination to turn out as well? Even in some tiny babies of two years old just starting out you will see some naturally just adopt a turned out position whilst almost adult teenagers on stage, waiting for applause etc might relax into a parallel position when they don't feel observed?

[taxi4ballet]

Do you think some children are born with a natural inclination to turn out as well? Even in some tiny babies of two years old just starting out you will see some naturally just adopt a turned out position whilst almost adult teenagers on stage, waiting for applause etc might relax into a parallel position when they don't feel observed?

Definitely, when my dd was a toddler she used to like going down slides turned sideways and doing the splits

[Pups_mum]

Most likely though, the very successful brain surgeon will cut off all contact with her parents because they destroyed her childhood dream of becoming a ballerina.

Or indeed because they encouraged her to study medicine. I know a lot more people who are bitter about being pushed into medicine than about not being able to pursue ballet. But maybe that's the circles I move in.

[Petalviolet]

A classic sign.

 

Mine was only interested in challenging gravity in that dogged fashion by mountaineering up slide irrespective of anybody coming down OR due to damp circumstances of self and/or equipment v v v irritatingly slowly squeaking her way down to mid point then sticking. No splits. No such balletic aplomb.

[TYR]

Also, dramascientist, I used to get weird pains in the outside of the hip. I don't remember having them since I've been taking class regularly...oh.

[MAK]

Proballetdancer - as a non dancing parent I have really learned a lot from your posts, thank you!

Snowflake - dd1 is also an ex gymnast with good flexibility in some areas of the body. It wasn't until she started Associates that we found out from her thrn teacher that whilst her gymnastics had helped maintain her natural flexibility, it had also increased her tendency to pro-nate, which in turn was causing her to turn out from the feet rather than the hip. Since she has cut down on gym in favour of dance, things are improving, but very slowly! I have no idea what I am looking at so am v reliant on her teachers.

[MumToTu]

That's interesting MAK but dd's feet are the opposite and i think maybe more prone to subinate, though i dont know if she does or not, ie when she pushes or relaxes back into her hyperextension her knees face inwards rather than just back and look bandy... from the front and I would assume her feet may follow this curved shape too, lol i am not painting a good picture, am I sorry dd...!

 

It's hard getting them out of gymnastics once they've got the bug isn't it. I don't think has helped dds posture either. I am glad your dd is improving,

i think my dd is too a lot since she "retired" lol age 11, but slowly too.

[tabitha]

I'm not sure things are quite as stringent as Proballet suggests. Ballet is based on other attributes such as artistry and musicality, as well as physique. I have seen plenty of students at RBS White Lodge and Upper School with less than the suggested cut off of 170 degree turnout.