What's all the fuss about?

[FLOSS]

It is very entertaining to discover what people's balletic bugbears are but I wonder what would be left in the Royal Ballet's repertory if the management at Covent Garden were to programme ballets which reflect the views expressed here? . If they programmed your dislikes the repertory would be much as it is now, interesting and varied,but if they banished "boring" Balanchine,"twee"Ashton any MacMillan ballet with whores in it, any ballet using music by Prokofiev and the nineteenth century Petipa repertory which have been mentioned here there would not be much left except Giselle and Don Quixote which I don't think is quite enough to sustain a ballet company as a classical one.

 

I am curious as to what you would programme in place of the ballets which you dislike because their choreographers and their composers are not to your taste?While there are plenty of choreographers about there are few great ones. Would you programme young and untried choreographers or would you look at other company's historic repertory and try to get more works by Robbins  or would you stick with McGregor? By the way I do hope that someone can help me by telling me whether all  Ashton ballets are "twee" or only some of them? If only some of them are "twee" which are they?

Edited February 14, 2017 by FLOSS

[Jan McNulty]

Twee-ness is in the eye of the beholder!

 

I shall think about the rest...

[zxDaveM]

 By the way I do hope that someone can help me by telling me whether all  Ashton ballets are "twee" or only some of them? If only some of them are "twee" which are they?

 

Only some. Two Pigeons, Wedding Bouquet, parts of Enigma Variations, parts of Cinderella, large parts of Ondine, Daphnis and Chloe, the goats in Sylvia, immediately spring to mind without recourse to text books. Whereas Symphonic Variations, Scenes de Ballet, Monotones, Fille (even with the chickens), Month in Country, La Valse, most of Cinderella, most of Sylvia etc etc, are sublime. There are a good few I've seen (names elude, without looking them up) that neither annoyed the twee out of me, nor drew a gasp of admiration (that some in the list above did)

Just saying and  I'm not saying I'm right in this - just what appeals to my weird sense of taste i guess.

[MAB]

I am one of those people that has come to the conclusion that ballet may well be a dying art in this country.  The problem is a society that is saturated with popular culture.  The cheap and tawdry is everywhere, particularly in music and theatre and what Lord Reith would make of contemporary TV is anyone's guess.  Are falling educational standards to blame?

 

Personal tastes can be puzzling at times but the fact remains that ballets that pass the test of time must have something going for them though I believe unimaginative productions can damage classic works almost as much as works performed by dancers unable to dance the style of a given ballet.  Ashton, twee?   I'm sorry but that comment just puzzles me, though I imagine anything that deals with sentiment or romanticism won't resonate with contemporary audiences.  I imagine the fault is with me as I belong to that generation soon to depart.  I have no problem with McGregor apart from wondering about the wisdom of turning  a classical company into a modern one.  I admire him because he is prolific and sets high standards, There isn't a major classical choreographer to call upon right now, the RB has McGregor just as ENB is forming a relationship with Akram Khan.  If the cream of UK choreographers happen to be modern, then that is the path that must be followed as an alternative to mediocrity.

 

The lists of likes and dislikes seem to cancel each other out , Ashton's twee but an opposite type of choreography such as Glen Tetley's isn't liked either.  Clearly programming is going to be a challenge and someone will be disappointed somewhere along the line.

[Vanartus]

It is very entertaining to discover what people's balletic bugbears are but I wonder what would be left in the Royal Ballet's repertory if the management at Covent Garden were to programme ballets which reflect the views expressed here? . If they programmed your dislikes the repertory would be much as it is now, interesting and varied,but if they banished "boring" Balanchine,"twee"Ashton any MacMillan ballet with whores in it, any ballet using music by Prokofiev and the nineteenth century Petipa repertory which have been mentioned here there would not be much left except Giselle and Don Quixote which I don't think is quite enough to sustain a ballet company as a classical one.

 

I am curious as to what you would programme in place of the ballets which you dislike because their choreographers and their composers are not to your taste?While there are plenty of choreographers about there are few great ones. Would you programme young and untried choreographers or would you look at other company's historic repertory and try to get more works by Robbins or would you stick with McGregor? By the way I do hope that someone can help me by telling me whether all Ashton ballets are "twee" or only some of them? If only some of them are "twee" which are they?

Twee - irredeemably so - Two Pigeons.

Twee - but acceptably so - Fille

Twee - but acceptably so because of date of choreography (...unlike TP) Patineurs

 

Twee free and sublime: Symphonic Variations, Scènes de Ballet, Monotones, Illuminations, Jazz Calendar, Month in the Country, Isadora waltzes...

 

Twee light but yes so much to admire: The Dream

Edited February 14, 2017 by Vanartus

[Duck]

I used the word "sweet" in relation to Ashton's narrative ballets which I guess is not far off "twee". I am thinking of Two Pigeons, Marguerite and Armand, Enigma Variations, Month in the Country (I haven't seen as many as Dave) - the theme and the way the situation/ environment/ atmosphere is shown is not what I would enjoy in other art forms either (and I do go to all sorts of art exhibitions, ranging from the ancient classics to 21st century works, and read a variety of books). So it's not about Ashton - I do like Rhapsody and Monotones, and also Scenes de Ballet and Symphonic Variations.  I guess I am just more on the psychological/ dramatic side when it comes to narrative works, and it's just the same with the books that I read - just my minority sense of taste.

[Beryl H]

I think the only Ashton episodes I find twee and cloying are the goats in Sylvia, and some parts of the first act of Two Pigeons between the girl and boy, not the gypsy scenes or the second act. 

[Geoff]

Twee - irredeemably so - Two Pigeons

It's Valentine's Day which is perhaps an appropriate date to make an obvious remark. We know Two Pigeons was a gift of love from Ashton to someone he had loved (maybe lost, maybe found again) who inspired him, and as a result the work is chock full, chokingly full, of deeply felt and sincerely expressed emotion. That may be one explanation why, at the end of each performance I attended of the most recent RB run, I looked along whatever row I was sitting in and saw all kinds of people wiping away tears. Real emotion by a sincere artist, sincerely performed (at least sometimes) and received as such by a grateful public.

 

If that adds up to "twee", I'm a banana.

[VickyPage]

I must say, as a young ballet fan, this topic is both enlightening and depressing. I'm afraid I'm green enough to still enjoy the most overperformed classics imaginable, to want to re-view every ballet, even the ones that didn't make a great first impression. I find all of this back and forth completely incomprehensible. There have certainly been ballets I've seen (90% modern ones) that have failed to impress me, but I'd probably still give them multiple chances with multiple different casts, if I had the time or money to do so.

[Fonty]

Vicky, every person who says they hate Two Pigeons, or would never see another Sleeping Beauty or Swan Lake again, there will be at least one who loves them. 

 

And I for one adore the music for R & J.  I never fail to be moved by it. 

[BMC]

Vicky - when starting this thread, I only intended it to be a bit of fun. I have been a ballet lover for over 40 years, going week in, week out. My personal dislike of Firebird (my own bugbear) doesn't mean I want to see it replaced in any company's rep or disappear. Indeed if it comes back to the Royal Ballet, I know I will give it yet another 'go'. I agree totally to keep trying - it's amazing how sometimes you suddenly click with something. Another personal one for me was The Dream - on I think my third viewing I suddenly fell in love with it and it's been one of my favourites ever since. As we are all huge ballet fans on this site, I was just genuinely interested to see what other people's equivalents of the blind spot is. And with a run of 5 Sleeping Beauties to come, I find it veer reassuring I M not alien in wanting to do a bit of fast forwarding!! So apologies if I have appeared cynical or jaded - ballet to me is magical. Now just off to see Woolf Works which I loved at the cinema and last night!!

[Sim]

And I am one of those people mentioned by Fonty.  I don't find Ashton 'twee' at all because underneath every minute of what some people call 'twee' lies the most difficult and challenging choreography.  RB dancers to whom I have spoken always remark on how hard Ashton is to dance and get right.  If the choreography were lightweight in any way I might understand why the word 'twee' can be used by some people, but 'twee' this ain't.  None of it.  And if happy, pastoral scenes and innocent love means that something is 'twee', please bring on more.  What a lovely relief from the reality all around us every day.

 

I also love R&J.  As far as scenes being too long, choreographers have traditionally respected Prokofiev's music and have allowed the music to dictate the length of the scene.  I think the balcony scene and its music are incredibly moving and have so much to say to those who listen.  Young love, young lust, impending doom.....incredibly moving. 

 

Swan Lake....yep, I have been watching it for decades and I love it still.  Just when I think that no-one can do anything new with it, along comes something else, and it almost always works (most recently Fabulous Beast Theatre, and Australian National Ballet). 

 

Sleeping Beauty....I have never been a huge fan, but I find that I have liked it more as I have got older.  I think this is probably to do with having achieved an understanding of how difficult it is to dance, and I therefore appreciate the performances a lot more, whether Aurora, Lilac or the Prologue Fairies. 

 

Giselle, ditto my Swan Lake comments about it always lending itself to new and successful interpretations (Khan, Fabulous Beast Theatre, et.al).  I also love it in its classical version.  Again, such beautiful, stirring music.

 

I could go on and on, but I just wanted to reassure young Vicky that some of us retain a deep fondness for, and love of, the classics (19th and 20th century) always.  They aren't perfect, but perfection is in the eye of the beholder. 

[VickyPage]

BMC - You don't need to apologise! Sleeping Beauty is a perfect example of a ballet I too have struggled with in the past, although it has some great moments. I wasn't trying to call anyone out on whether or not they were cynical. I do think it can be harder to find magic in ballet when you have seen more of it, but that's just the 'first time' principle. I guess it is an interesting idea though: how does our love of something change over the years? 

 

Sim - I am reassured! And I agree with all you say. 

[ninamargaret]

I must have seen around 200 ballets in my lifetime, and many of the classics and the Ashton and Macmillan I've seen many times. R and J i think around a couple of dozen times. i find that likes and dislikes have, in the main, been very much governed by who has been performing,and even more my personal or emotional state at the time. tastes change throughout our lives as well; doubt if i'd have appreciated McGregor when i was 8! But i must admit i've had a good weep at many ballets and enjoyed far more than Ive disliked

[BMC]

I'm not articulate enough to put into words how the love changes - all I can say is that the more I see, the more I want to see (Firebird notwithstanding!!).

[Mary]

I must say, as a young ballet fan, this topic is both enlightening and depressing. I'm afraid I'm green enough to still enjoy the most overperformed classics imaginable, to want to re-view every ballet, even the ones that didn't make a great first impression. I find all of this back and forth completely incomprehensible. There have certainly been ballets I've seen (90% modern ones) that have failed to impress me, but I'd probably still give them multiple chances with multiple different casts, if I had the time or money to do so.

I agree Vicky, and compared to all the other things that  annoy or bore me in the modern world ....ballet is 100% JOY, even when it is not my favourite moment or work.

 

I gasp in horror at some of the comments above too -( not like Swan Lake? Not like Balanchine?????find R&J too long?? think Ashton is twee? this and more all baffles me) and I am getting to be an oldie who has seen Swan Lake  100s of  times.  Like Sim  I hope I see it 100s of times more, and indeed all the classics.

 

But I think we are all being fairly light-hearted. Forumers on the whole are very, very passionate in their love of ballet. I am sure we will soon get back to what we are best at which is being appreciative in an informed and occasionally critical way.

[Colman]

BMC, this is a fine thread, if only to illustrate how utterly and totally wrong people can be. :-)

 

Slightly more seriously: Vicky, this is a pretty good illustration of how people's tastes differ and how arbitrary and subjective it can be. Like what you like: you can't be wrong.

[bridiem]

BMC - You don't need to apologise! Sleeping Beauty is a perfect example of a ballet I too have struggled with in the past, although it has some great moments. I wasn't trying to call anyone out on whether or not they were cynical. I do think it can be harder to find magic in ballet when you have seen more of it, but that's just the 'first time' principle. I guess it is an interesting idea though: how does our love of something change over the years? 

 

 

VickyPage: I'm glad to say that I don't find it harder to find magic in ballet as I see more of it. The magic just deepens, and astonishes all the more.

[bangorballetboy]

This might raise a smile for some contributors to this thread...

 

Last night, being the anniversary of the premiere of The Two Pigeons, I was listening to the music for the ballet.  My phone was playing on shuffle and at the end of one movement, the style of the music changed dramatically and I heard "Poisoning Pigeons in the Park".

[Duck]

I wouldn't want to go that far    Instead, I am happy to keep it to avoiding the park where I know there will be pigeons.

[John Mallinson]

This might raise a smile for some contributors to this thread...

 

Last night, being the anniversary of the premiere of The Two Pigeons, I was listening to the music for the ballet.  My phone was playing on shuffle and at the end of one movement, the style of the music changed dramatically and I heard "Poisoning Pigeons in the Park".

 

Those were the days…

 

[Fonty]

Haven't heard that in a very long time. 

[Mary]

Which choreographer could do justice to his The Masochism Tango I wonder?

[bangorballetboy]

Which choreographer could do justice to his The Masochism Tango I wonder?

 

Didn't Wheeldon have a go in Alice?

[Jillykins]

I enjoy so many ballets, different styles and choreographers but one ballet was a real hate! Only seen once but hated it! Think it was called This House Must Burn. Can't remember choreographer. The only classic that I don't enjoy is Firebird, already mentioned on this site.

[bridiem]

I enjoy so many ballets, different styles and choreographers but one ballet was a real hate! Only seen once but hated it! Think it was called This House Must Burn. Can't remember choreographer. The only classic that I don't enjoy is Firebird, already mentioned on this site.

 

That was by Ashley Page, Jillykins. I seem to remember he made it around the time the Opera House was closing for refurbishment... I can't now remember whether I liked it or not.

[Fonty]

Oh, This House Will Burn is etched in my memory as one of the worst experiences I have ever had at the Opera House.  Fortunately, it was never given a second outing!

[northstar]

Enjoyed reading all these views. Yes everything is subjective, and in some sense opinions are arbitrary, but that's what's fascinating about them and makes for lively discussion.

 

In the question of 'what's all the fuss?', I am going to echo the couple of views already expressed about Romeo and Juliet. In dancer biographies in English National Ballet programmes, which details dancers' favourite roles, Juliet seems to come up very often, more than other roles, in my impression. I'm not 100% sure about the statistics but R&J seems to come up regularly in companies schedules, and anecdotally I remember hearing people rave about the music, more so than other ballets.

 

And I confess I don't see what all the fuss is about. I have seen both Nureyev and MacMillian's R&J and probably wouldn't go a long way to see them again. For me there wasn't much memorable or exciting about Juliet's choreography (maybe the fault lies with me). I can guess that the acting part of the role might be the appeal to ballerinas. The music and drama of Tybalt's death was fantastic in both and the most impressive point of the ballet for me. Other moments of interest such as Mercutio's dance of distraction, but I found parts with large ensemble and fight scenes tended to drag on. The music is a marvel indeed, but not necessarily marvellous, if you see what I mean. 

 

So I haven't come to love R&J in the way that many seem to, yet. Oddly though, I love the music of Prokofiev's Cinderella, and the choreography in the versions I've seen.

[RuthE]

I must say, as a young ballet fan, this topic is both enlightening and depressing. I'm afraid I'm green enough to still enjoy the most overperformed classics imaginable, to want to re-view every ballet, even the ones that didn't make a great first impression. I find all of this back and forth completely incomprehensible. There have certainly been ballets I've seen (90% modern ones) that have failed to impress me, but I'd probably still give them multiple chances with multiple different casts, if I had the time or money to do so.

 

I'm with the Sleeping Beauty haters, I'm afraid... I've tried.  I'm not jaded; I was bored out of my mind the first time I saw it at ENB (the last time they did it, only about 4 years ago), but persevered with the RB's a number of times last run.  I should add that I can barely fault anything artistic or technical in the performances I've seen. I just find it deathly dull.

 

I haven't seen it yet in the current RB run, because the dancers I want to see in the lead roles are all on this week and next.  It remains the only full-length work in any genre which I am quite happy only to turn up for certain acts of... indeed if there was an interval between Acts 2 and 3 I would quite happily skip the Prologue, see Act 1, go out for dinner, and pop back in for Act 3.  The only reason I still book for it at all is to see favourite - or up-and-coming - ballerinas as Aurora, and quite frankly I'm only interested in the acts in which she is both awake and not a baby.

 

Sorry for my bluntness!

 

I feel similarly about La Bayadere.  The thing which Beauty and Bayadere have in common is that they have stories which put the heroine out of commission less than halfway through the plot...

 

I just prefer full-on story ballets or abstract ones which don't pretend to have a plot.  Half-hour plot pauses for endless divertissements are my least favourite thing about ballet.  Give me Mayerling any day.

Edited February 16, 2017 by RuthE

[Fonty]

 

So I haven't come to love R&J in the way that many seem to, yet. Oddly though, I love the music of Prokofiev's Cinderella, and the choreography in the versions I've seen.

 

Strange thing, personal taste.  While I love the music for R & J, I am not dead keen on the score for Cinderella.  This is probably why the ballet is not one of my favourites.  

[Nina G.]

I would not have booked any tickets to see Sleeping Beauty were it not for the two debutantes Yasmine Naghdi and Francesca Hayward; having seen the wonderful Marianela Nunez several times... it's really the young upcoming talent I am now excited to see!

[pianolady]

This is a wonderful discussion- it's so fascinating to see the different reactions. I'm another one who's not so smitten with Romeo and Juliet.  It's partly the plot-I do prefer the more supernatural worlds(although I do love Coppelia but that feels slightly Gothic to me) but with R and J the music just doesn't evoke the same emotion for me as Swan Lake or Sleeping Beauty or Giselle- what's interesting is that my OH finds Adam's music really pedestrian and average but it sends shivers down my spine.  Yet Prokofiev provides soaring melodies of an emotional scope that I don't think Adam does but I just can't engage with his music in the same way.

 

It's such a subjective and interesting topic-OH had tears in his eyes at the end of the first part of Woolf Works- I was moved but not to the same extent-but the Bolshoi Sleeping Beauty first act fairies brought tears to my eyes (in a good way).

 

Two Pigeons- I loved the quality of the two lovers and whatever you want to call it-twee, quaint, touching but I could take or leave the gypsies. Other ones I couldn't get into although I enjoyed - I'm a big fan of Northern Ballet but Cleopatra left me a bit uninvolved.

Edited February 17, 2017 by pianolady

[Sim]

Strange thing, personal taste.  While I love the music for R & J, I am not dead keen on the score for Cinderella.  This is probably why the ballet is not one of my favourites.

 

I agree with you, Fonty. I never go to this ballet because I dislike the music. I love R&J to bits though!