Pas de Quatre Posted March 2, 2013 Share Posted March 2, 2013 (edited) It would be lovely to think that places and DaDas are always awarded strictly on merit according to the published criteria. However, audition panels are human and it would not surprise me if sometimes it is too great a temptation to offer someone a place without a DaDa, knowing they can pay, and then offer the DaDa to someone further down the list to increase numbers! Edited for grammar Edited March 2, 2013 by Pas de Quatre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Autumn days Posted March 2, 2013 Share Posted March 2, 2013 Surely, though, that would be OK as places are still awarded in order of merit. I am more concerned that places may be awarded to people that can pay that are way down the original list of talent and therefore get a place JUST because they can pay!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
balletla Posted March 2, 2013 Share Posted March 2, 2013 mum in a spin, I think we have already had similar conversations earlier in the thread, particularly regarding places like Tring where there are few funded places and most have to pay. Some people think that the talent pool is so big that it makes no difference and that if you work your way down the list until you find someone that can pay, they will be just as talented as those at the top who can't pay. Personally I don't buy in to that theory and I believe there are some students who are exceptionally talented and these are ranked higher than others. If they can't afford to pay, they will be lost to the system and another slightly less talented student who can pay, will take their place. I believe that this should be of concern to the schools, because although they will always fill their places, they like nothing better than to boast about where their graduates go and if the calibre is not quite as high, they won't be able to boast about them getting into the top companies. The new DaDA rules mean that a DaDA funded place is not available to any student whose income is over £70k and therefore, it means that places will be awarded to DaDA eligible students first, so that schools use up all their DaDA funding and those students over £70k will be secondary concerns. This creates a two-tier system, before you even begin to think about whether anyone can afford it or not, funded or not!! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pas de Quatre Posted March 2, 2013 Share Posted March 2, 2013 But surely it is the DaDas that should be offered in order of merit. What you say, mum in a spin, seems to assume that there is an all or nothing approach to being able to afford fees without DaDas - exactly what we are upset about with the new scheme. I have always believed that there are many parents in the middle range who would make huge sacrifices to pay if they aren't awarded a DaDa, but would be mightily relieved if they were. It becomes quite a difficult decision over what to put on the application form, whether you can afford to attend without any help or not! Was typing at the same time as you Ribbons. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moneypenny Posted March 2, 2013 Share Posted March 2, 2013 At the end of the day, surely the schools have to be really careful about ensuring that their 6th form places are awarded to and taken up by the most talented students ... Otherwise the reality will surely be that graduate employment will fall ... It's difficult enough out there as it is for those graduating. We have been told that for 6th form schools are very much looking at employability, and why wouldn't they. As a parent I think I would be quite uncomfortable if I thought my dd had been offered a 6th form place as a second choice based on ability to pay ... and then find that she wasnt able to get a job on graduation because she wasn't quite up to it in the first place! I absolutely totally empathise with all those parents who currently have dcs in year 11 at the moment, we will be in this situation next year and if dd is lucky enough to be offered a 6th form place we too will be caught between a rock and a hard place because of the new dada funding, but at least we have a bit of time to try and plan ahead. It is very demoralising to have the goalposts moved when your dc is so close to the top end of lower school with years of hard work and training and financial investment already behind them. I could go on and on and on ....!!! 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Autumn days Posted March 2, 2013 Share Posted March 2, 2013 (edited) "Some people think that the talent pool is so big that it makes no difference and that if you work your way down the list until you find someone that can pay, they will be just as talented as those at the top who can't pay. Personally I don't buy in to that theory and I believe there are some students who are exceptionally talented and these are ranked higher than others. If they can't afford to pay, they will be lost to the system and another slightly less talented student who can pay, will take their place." That is what I was trying to say!! "But surely it is the DaDas that should be offered in order of merit. What you say, mum in a spin, seems to assume that there is an all or nothing approach to being able to afford fees without DaDas - exactly what we are upset about with the new scheme." DaDAs should indeed be offered in order of merit and according to the link above that is the plan. There may well be people lower down the list, though, that can pay and if there are still places available I am guessing that they may well be offered one. I believe that there is an all or nothing approach to being able to pay - either you can or you can't!! If someone's situation is borderline and paying would cause problems, it is up to them to decide if they want to risk it or not. As a parent I think I would be quite uncomfortable if I thought my dd had been offered a 6th form place as a second choice based on ability to pay ... and then find that she wasn't able to get a job on graduation because she wasn't quite up to it in the first place! This is where my thoughts were going! There are obviously no guarantees but I would like to think that it was thought to be possible! Edited because the quote thing didn't work!! Edited March 2, 2013 by mum in a spin 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tutuesque Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 I'm another one joining the line of people standing on the edge of this particular fiscal cliff with a very squeezed middle. Could someone who has received this income info request tell me what year frame they are using? I'm presuming it's April2012-13 ? My daughter has successfully auditioned for a place at Tring Park 6th form, I can confirm that the paperwork we received said that evidence to be provided for income would be for the year April 2012-13. Mixed emotions really, thrilled that my daughter has had this recognition of her ability and hard work, sadness that she is very unlikely to be able to accept the place, frustration at the whole dance provision and funding situation and at not being able to even access a student loan for the training. Before embarking on the auditioning process we did discuss the level of the fees at the different places she was applying to with our daughter and shared the information about our income and expenditure with our daughter so she understands the situation and what it would mean if we weren't able to access any finance (by way of a student loan or funding award). When the Dada income scales were published it became apparent that we're a little over the threshold where any help is available even if she were lucky enough to gain an award. We discussed other options such as attempting to find a better paid job or selling/remortgaging the house (might pay for one year!). Obviously cutting expenditure back would be looked at but since we don't live an extravagant lifestyle there isn't a huge amount that can be pared back there (certainly not sufficient to make the fees affordable). Aside from being unrealistic, unsustainable, and unlikely to happen in the timescale required in any case, knowing what the sacrifices these measures would mean for the rest of the family would place quite a burden on our daughter. We also have 2 other children. She pushes herself very hard in any case; this would cause her to put herself under even more pressure. I'm not sure how healthy that would be. Because we've been honest all the way through she knew it was a long shot so she isn't completely devastated (she have a plan B and a plan C too!); however she is still only 16 and so feels the injustice of the current confused arrangements for access and funding for vocational dance especially keenly. I have signed the petition mentioned earlier in the thread. The whole situation must be very fraught and frustrating for the schools too. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
balletla Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 So sorry to hear your sad news tutuesque. It is soul-destroying. One plea I would make to all people turning down places, funded or not, is to let the schools know that it is due to financial constraints so that they get the full picture of what is happening out here. Best of luck to your daughter! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2dancersmum Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 I echo Ribbons plea to anyone turning down places or even final auditions for finanical reasons to let the schools know about it. It won't help anyone this year but perhaps might help get the scale of funding adjusted for future years. I really do feel for everyone out there this year. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tutuesque Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 Thanks for your comment Ribbons. We mentioned the reason when we emailed to ask if there was any point attending the funding audition since we would be ineligible for a Dada. They said to attend the funding audition in any case - so we did. At least it made my daughter feel she'd given it her best shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurora Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 Sorry to hear that tutuesque the new system really does suck!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moneypenny Posted March 5, 2013 Share Posted March 5, 2013 It sure does suck ... Wouldn't be surprised if 6th form ballet training becomes elitist under the new system ... ie. If you're just talented forget it, but if you're talented and wealthy you're ok! As with most things in life ... it all comes down to money! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomuchtallent Posted March 5, 2013 Share Posted March 5, 2013 Could be moneypenny as the very low earners probably couldn't pay for the boarding ect even on a dada 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZooZoo Posted March 5, 2013 Share Posted March 5, 2013 This might help someone. If you save childcare vouchers (max £243/month) for say 5 years, you would have £14,500 to put towards boarding costs but it would only have "cost" you £11,600 because of the tax saving. I know it's probably a drop in the ocean but it's the only government "help" that I can spot for anyone earning over £70k. You can use childcare vouchers for older children (for the boarding element), I believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nana Lily Posted March 5, 2013 Share Posted March 5, 2013 Sadly you can only use Childcare vouchers up to the age if 15, so no help for DADA awards. NL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheila Beelam Posted March 5, 2013 Share Posted March 5, 2013 Petition signed, my heart goes out to you all with talented, frustrated DCs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interested Parent Posted March 6, 2013 Share Posted March 6, 2013 As usual, another worrying 'take' on the new DaDa rules: http://www.thestage.co.uk/news/2013/02/means-tested-dada-awards-to-exclude-wealthiest-students/ I wonder if anyone will be asking for a quote from parents of dancers at some point? I certainly intend to respond to the article and hope others will to. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonlady Posted March 6, 2013 Share Posted March 6, 2013 I have just reponded. I wanted to stress that the word 'wealthy' actually means 'middle income' and that two working parents in average jobs will be over the limit. I do not wish for a re-emergence of the debate as to who earns what or who is classified as 'poor' but wanted to highlight the anguish of dancers who are now being told they cannot continue their training because of a number on a piece of Government paper. Trudi 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
balletla Posted March 6, 2013 Share Posted March 6, 2013 Thanks for posting IP. So worrying that this is being presented with such a positive spin. I have posted a comment as well. I am coming across quite a few parents who are totally unaware that there have been any changes to DaDAs and are really knocked sideways when they realise the implications. I think the schools might be quite surprised by how many people end up not being able to take up their places once they realise the full implications of the costs which will be provided by the schools post acceptance. As the lady in the article says, in reality parents will only receive the actual fee contribution about 2 months before the start of the new school year. They will also not realise the cost of accommodation until they have explored what is on offer for the particular school. I think the schools may be in for a last minute flurry of people turning down places once they really realise what's really involved! 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomuchtallent Posted March 6, 2013 Share Posted March 6, 2013 Well I suppose the schools will have to take more over seas students. It worries me that if the most talented can't pay, surely the schools will have to fill the dadas up or face losing money that they need so they will have to give them to less talented.This Will create a bigger problem in the future when they wont be able to find work, then the dadas Will end up Scrapped all together. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interested Parent Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 One would hope that, if that happens, the 'DaDa' schools consider changing to the Foundation Degree so that every talented child can access the student loans funding. This year Central will have the pick of the bunch. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rachaelballet12 Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 Yes agree with interested parent Central will certainly have the pick of the bunch this year will be interesting to see what implications this new dada system will have on graduates in the future and what schools have the students that go on to secure jobs. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spooky Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 Luckily my eldest dd is in her last year of training but her youngest sister, currently year 11, wants to follow the musical theatre route. We have decided she will do A levels first so she can have two more years of free education and I have told her that she will have to chose a degree course because of the changes to dadas. She was quite upset as has had her heart set on Laines for many years now but now am not sure she will even be able to do one of her first choice degree courses. because although they can access student loans in many cases they can only borrow £6000p.a. towards fees and a lot of places e.g. Urdang, Arts Ed, Mountview are charging £10,000 to £16,000 p.a. fees! Apparently these colleges are still classed as private institutions even though many still take applications through UCAS! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaylou62 Posted March 23, 2013 Share Posted March 23, 2013 Just to update you all....I sent the petition to my local Councillor who has signed it. He has also said that he will talk to David (Laws) when he next visits our county (David Law's constituency is in a neighbouring county) and has also spoken to The Arts Council who are looking into the changes Please keep sharing the petition and signing. I see we have new ballet co-ers who might not have signed yet. The petition can be googled via changes to DaDA funding 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
balletla Posted March 23, 2013 Share Posted March 23, 2013 Also, just to update you, despite a couple of nudges/reminders, I still haven't had a reply from either David Laws or the EFA. If/when I ever get a reply I will post it on here, but I really don't expect anything to happen until this year has played out. As predicted, now that there are DaDA offers out, people are starting to realise what's involved and I know a couple who have has to turn them down already. My DD has received a couple of offers and we are still busy looking at options and other funding sources (including grandparents, sadly) and may be able to cobble something together for the first year with a view to finding a different solution after that. It is stressful though. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecarte Posted March 23, 2013 Share Posted March 23, 2013 Keep up the good work Jaylou62. Your commitment to this does you credit. It may be too late for those of us still awaiting results for this year but hopefully those who are coming through in years to come may benefit. Just a thought have you contacted Dance UK who are supposed to support dancers and be advocates for them? Good luck and I will continue to garner support for the petition. Thanks x 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moneypenny Posted March 23, 2013 Share Posted March 23, 2013 Does anyone know if there is a "current year assessment" option available under the new dada scheme, should your financial circumstances change significantly during the previous financial year ... ie redundancy! I believe current year assessment is an option under the mds scheme should your financial situation change significantly during the year, so I'm just wondering whether this is the case with the new dada scheme. Would seem very unfair to lose your job during the year, then be assessed on that years income when potentially you will have little or no income the following year that the fees are due. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
balletla Posted March 23, 2013 Share Posted March 23, 2013 If you read the guidance on the EFA website, it tells you. From memory, the DaDA award is based on the previous year's earnings and is given for 3 years. I think it is up to the schools' discretion as to whether they take significant variations in earnings into account from year to year. Seems a bit unfair either way. Someone could be assessed in the year they are out of work and then get a job again the next year. Certainly on MDS you are required to tell them of a significant change either way - I think it's 10% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mimi'smom Posted March 23, 2013 Share Posted March 23, 2013 Apologies in advance as this is about MDS not DADAs but I was wondering if the parental contribution is re-assessed annually? Our income has dropped slightly this financial year (probably less than 10%) but I actually have no idea!) due to fluctuations in my husbands call-out/overtime and we were hoping that our contributions might change next year to reflect this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moneypenny Posted March 23, 2013 Share Posted March 23, 2013 I couldn't find anything definitive in the guidelines other than being assessed on previous years income and it applying to the 3 years ... Makes the changes in the scheme potentially a double blow if there is nothing built in to take account of loss of income from one year to the next! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moneypenny Posted March 23, 2013 Share Posted March 23, 2013 Yes, income is assessed every year for mds, so a fluctuation in income each year either up or down is reflected in the fees you pay for the next year. Only when you have a significant drop from one year to the next are you eligible to do a current year assessment ... It is a percentage drop, but not sure what it is ... and if you do a current year assessment and you pay the fees on what you think you will earn, when a reconciliation is done at the end of the year, if you ended up earning more than estimated, the difference in fees has to be paid. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong. And once you move to a current year assessment, I don't think you can go back to a previous year assessment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nana Lily Posted March 23, 2013 Share Posted March 23, 2013 Hi Angela, On MDS if your income has dropped, you can ask to go on a current year assessment. The drop has to be considered "significant", sorry but I can't remember by how much, but its worth speaking to the school finance department. NL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moneypenny Posted March 23, 2013 Share Posted March 23, 2013 Even if your income hasn't dropped significantly, the drop this year will be reflected in the fees for next year. We earned less in 11/12 than in 10/11 and our fees were reduced accordingly (not by much!) for this academic year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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