Jan McNulty Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 I am enjoying it although wish they would mention the training it takes to make it. And agree with Tulip about the size of some of them perhaps they should continue with their training to try and lose some weight, lets face it it's not healthy being that big !! Like some of the women in it and they are obviously enjoying it. Also don't like the fact they are calling dancers stick insects and robots instead of saying how dedicated and how hard dancers work. Looking forward to seeing the performance next week that's if they show it. Am wondering if ballet classes will become more attractive now to adults after this show? It was quite widely reported recently that health, fitness and (lack of) size do not necessarily go hand in hand. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evie Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 My ds currently training as a ballet dancer, would I am sure not want to have to lift those ladies! Afterall he's training as a ballet dancer not a weight lifter!! I switched this programme off after 20minutes, it's another reality TV programme and read a book instead!!! My ds home for half term found it quite interesting and expressed an opinion or two and asked when the next programme was on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mimi66 Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 (edited) It was quite widely reported recently that health, fitness and (lack of) size do not necessarily go hand in hand. Sumo restlers, for instance, are very fit and incrediblly agile - and they are bit like little mountains! However, I heard that after they retire they tend to experience some health problem if they do not adjust their life style to that of non-athletes. But then this is true to all retired athletes and dancers. I am beginning to think that - particularly for women after certain age - it is up to one's DNA. There are some retired dancers who remain thin (eg Noella Pontois, Carla Fracchi), but also those who become more padded (eg Claude Bessy, Violette Verdy (the Russian legend)). I don't think their exercise and diets are that much different from each other... Sylvie Guillem (I think) once said in some interview that if one needed to diet to be dancer slim, then dancing is not a profession for her. Meaning, one's body shape is more or less dictated by one's DNA, like heights, and if one doesn't have it, there is not much one can change that fact. I am not saying that one shouldn't bother to eat and exercise sensiblly, though. But those "efforts" don't necessarily make the difference. Edited February 15, 2014 by mimi66 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna C Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 My usually quiet and calm dd very nearly threw something at the tv upon hearing about the "real women" vs skinny/stick thin "robots". She was livid and said that had she been Monica, she would have given them a piece of her mind! 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiz Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 I totally understand how Miss Spanner feels! When I was a size 16, I knew I was overweight and I did not call slender women names. It was up to me to act upon it, not insult people. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxi4ballet Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 I would very much like the programme to include an interview with some professional dancers, and for them to be able to say whether or not they are offended by being referred to as stick-thin skinny robots.... Just off to the bookies now...!!! 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLAEI Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Do agree with the comment that if you have to diet to be dancer slim, then it's not the profession for you! That's the decision I came to anyway, many moons ago. I know size is a factor in lifting, but for some of the women in big ballet that aren't that big, cant see lifts being a problem, if they know how to be "lifted". A thin dancer who doesn't "help" could be as heavy as a larger dancer who is not just a dead weight. Clearly only up to a point Can't see anyone lifting me now however much I help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
primrose Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 I have just watched the final performance and thought it was more like a pantomine. Sorry but in my opinion I found the dancers far too big and arkward. I admire them for enjoying what they are doing but if Wayne thinks big ballet is beautiful then he better put his glasses on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulip Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 Yup it is a joke. Dancers spend years learning pas de deux. Wayne I think is ridiculing these ladies who dream of dancing but haven't put the years or hours of training in. I don't just mean this professionally, non professionals spend hours upon hours of traing to perfect their art. The lead dancer felt that it was ok for her male partner to have a sore wrist lifting her because she was after all fourteen stone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulieW Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 I think the costumes could've been better designed, but I thought they did a grand job as enthusiastic amateurs. They weren't pretending to be comparable to professionals, just to show that large people can get on stage and dance to a decent standard - they made a darn sight better job of it that I would have done. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulip Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 I have just watched the end of the show. I felt that it was lovely to see the enjoyment of performance from the dancers. It was also lovely to see how much their family members enjoyed the whole atmosphere of the performance and seeing their loved ones dance. If any thing was to come from this show for me , it would be the pure happiness that ballet brought to these people, irrelevant of height, shape or size. 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxi4ballet Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 I agree, Tulip. They didn't show much of the actual performance though; there were rather too many cutaway shots of people in the wings waiting to go on etc at just the wrong moment, and not enough of what was happening on stage. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest chinafish Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 I remember there was a shot, was it the Neapolitan? That I thought could have been an exciting bit but they panned the close up to the Queen and the Prince.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxi4ballet Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 It could have done with the final programme being a half-hour longer, as then they could have shown the entire performance. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thecatsmother Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 I was pleased to see the adults enjoying themselves but also interested in the choice of words by the professionals in the audience. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulieW Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 I think you can see the whole performance somewhere - maybe the website Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spooky Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 It could have done with the final programme being a half-hour longer, as then they could have shown the entire performance. There was an announcement at the end to say if you turned to another channel the whole performance could be seen but as I was watching on +1 anyway it was too late for me. Hope I can find it on catch-up but haven't had time to look yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DancingPixie Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 http://www.channel4.com/programmes/big-ballet/4od#3652314 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terpsichore Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 (edited) Just to say that I saw the video on Channel4oD last night and enjoyed it very much. Edited February 21, 2014 by terpsichore 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mimi66 Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 (edited) I liked this final episode the best - apart from the actual performance bits (sorry!). Finally...finally...and finally it showed what effort - both from the dancers and coaches - goes into actually doing something, nevermind that this is only amature one-off performance. And I really liked the way dancers are trying their best, and looking happy in the process. I must say I chuckled a bit at the lift scene on stage - it was very clever to have swans circling around the trio, so that there was enough time to prepare for the "lift" without showing the audience that preparation. Edited February 21, 2014 by mimi66 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LinMM Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Well just finished watching the final programme and as inexperienced amateurs I thought they did their bits very well.....it's not that easy to step out on the stage in front of a large audience! I haven't seen the full performance yet....so thanks Dancing Pixie for putting that link on. I loved the lady who said she now wanted to do it again....and again...and again. And then went on to name other ballets she would like to do.....a bit of post show euphoria!! But very recognisable. And good on Deborah Bull for going too. Well it has been successful in showing that larger ladies can dance but hope some of them will now continue in a normal adult ballet class and get away from the "large" aspect and just enjoy doing ballet. Perhaps there will be a chance for some of them to perform up in Leeds again if someone is prepared to organise a performing group up there. About thirty years ago I was dancing (with an amateur company) the part of the Broom in the ballet The Sorcerer's Apprentice. This was at The Commonwealth Institute which is no more now and we were all of a twitter because guess who was in the audience.....Wayne Sleep!! I was just so nervous....but once you're out on that stage, as Monica said, you just have to get on with it.....and enjoy it after a fashion! 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LupusMelis Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Hello everybody I'm a new poster here, but have been lurking for a while...as I do! Having been a participant in the show I hope you don't mind me sharing my opionions, thoughts and general brain dirge on this thread... I am surprised by some of the comments and feedback surrounding the show here, but I do find your honesty quite refreshing! In particular Primrose's comment that the final performance looked more like a pantomime. Content-wise, it certainly did feel like a pantomime and more comparable to the am dram productions I used to be involved as a teen (which would involve a bit of dancing!) than any of the dance or dance theater performances that I have been involved in. I've never been so disappointed as I did when I realised exactly what I would be 'performing' to a crowd that would include some of my biggest inspirations in dance (David Nixon, Pippa Moore, Derek Deane) and having to perform the recital to Derek Deane in a rehearsal setting without costumes and sets felt so embarassing and so exploitative (funnily enough this was edited out of the final series). One of the major things that strikes me is that many of you have come to the conclusion that us Big Ballet particpants are either bumbling amateurs or unhealthy individuals who have no concept of fitness, strength and most importantly, just what is requried to perform dance to a professional standard. As far as I am concerned this couldn't be further from the truth. OK, so I'm certainly not a professional ballet dancer (I am trying to develop a career as a Dance Artist in physical contemporary dance) but I approach my ballet training with a very professional mindset. I am very, very commited to developing my classical technique to the point where I attend classes in Leeds even though I live in Sheffield and a couple of years back I even made the choice between training to compete for a UK title in kickboxing and training for my Grade 6 RAD exam. The latter won, obviously. I pay money that I really can't afford to spend on one to one tuition with my brilliant teachers and I have performed many times at community dance events and local shows, each of which I have treated with the utmost seriousness and professionalism. It's a big shame that my obsession with classical ballet and my focus on conditiong and fitness was also lost in the editing of the programme, and that I generally haven't been portrayed in a very authentic way. Yes, I may have been 'heavier' than my ideal weight at the start of filming this programme but I know that my weight fluctuates just as much as my mood swings so I haven't really seen it as a negative before. I thought Big Ballet was actually going to be a genuine performance and training opportunity, that I would really be able to zone in and develop my technique further with coaching from Wayne Sleep and Monica (who would pass up that opportunity?!) and that our Swan Lake would draw comparisons with Matthew Bourne's version for the way that it showed the capabilities of atypical ballet dancer bodies. Grand ambitions I know, but that is how seriously I take dance! And I was drawn in by an advert that called for 'Dancers, Athletes and Performers' and naively thought that we would be taken seriously in our pursuit of this, just as I am taken seriously by every other ballet teacher or contemporary teacher/choreographer that I have worked with. Amateur ballet and amateur dance in general in the UK is already so inclusive, I certainly didn't want to be a part of a reality show that continued to perpetuate the myth that 'ballet is only for skinnies' because I already know just how diverse the students are in the various classes that I attend. Those of you who take classes at the Northern Ballet in the evenings may well recognise me (especially if you watch this clip:http://youtu.be/-t1J4KzZJc8 ) I wanted to show a different type of female body performing classical ballet, a strong female body with explosive qualities but also a feminine softness. My turn as an 'ugly sister' in this 'Swan Lake' (or should that be puddle, ha ha?) certainly didn't show that I hope that the legacy of Big Ballet will be that more people put aside their worries and concerns and just get out there and dance if they want to. I'm glad that the show has started to open up some debate and discussion about aesthetics and what that means for the female form in ballet, so I feel I have at least managed to contribute to something worthwhile! Thanks for reading Mel 14 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billyelliott Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Welcome sky dancer and thanks for posting . It's good to hear how things are from the point of view of the participant in this programme 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheila Beelam Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Thank you and welcome to the forum Mel I enjoyed the shows immensely but was dying to be let loose on a costume overhaul!! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LupusMelis Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Thank you and welcome to the forum Mel I enjoyed the shows immensely but was dying to be let loose on a costume overhaul!! Thanks Billy and Sheila for the welcome! I've been sharing tweets with you Sheila, and you'll be pleased to know I've just splurged on the Ainslewear leo Back onto topic, yes the costumes were extremely unflattering. They were absolutely stunning to look at, and the care and work that went into creating them was incredible but as dance costumes they just didn't work. The white swans could've been so much simpler, shorter skirt and lighter fabric and I think they would've been more flattering if they were. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mimi66 Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Hi, Skydancer! So nice to hear the participants' view. I have a burning desire to ask this question - please feel free to decline to answer - about that "real woman" remark in the programme. In the TV programme it came across as if only women of certain size should be considered "real". Do you feel that it was a result of that particular comment somehow being taken out of the context? I am just curious... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LupusMelis Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 (edited) Hi, Skydancer! So nice to hear the participants' view. I have a burning desire to ask this question - please feel free to decline to answer - about that "real woman" remark in the programme. In the TV programme it came across as if only women of certain size should be considered "real". Do you feel that it was a result of that particular comment somehow being taken out of the context? I am just curious... Hi Mimi! It's made me a bit sad to think that for all the things that were discussed in that episode the "real women" thing was what the viewing public zoned in on. The clip shown was an edited version of a longer discussion and the way it was 'set-up' for the cameras was incredibly fake (I'd already spoken to Wayne and cleared the air by that point!). I can't speak for the other 2 dancers, but if I actually referred to "real women" (IIR I said ordinary people?) I meant it in the context of ordinary women and men who were not trained professional ballet dancers but were still trying to achieve the same goals. I and some of the others just wanted to be taken seriously as dancers! I do think it was taken massively out of context and I'm sure the others certainly didn't mean to infer that only women above size whatever should be considered 'real', how preposterous! And you can't imagine how cringeworthy it was to hear Wayne and some of the other dancers referring to trained professionals, who I respect and admire, as 'stick insects', 'ballet robots' etc. But in the dancers' case I think these were just ordinary, emotional reactions to being mocked in public by someone who they thought was their mentor. What doesn't come across in the programme was just how emotionally tense and stressful the 'classes' and 'rehearsals' were. Not only were some people having to deal with learning ballet for the first time, others were putting absurd amounts of pressure on themselves (I would be guilty of that!), it was weird having cameras filming class time and all those moments that you would ordinarily want to internalise things. Also the concept that was beginning to emerge was one of broken dreams, lost opportunities and hopes and not a celebration of the movement potential of the human body. I definitely found it a psychological challenge, and although the others may not admit it they may well have done too, so it was difficult to have a balanced reaction to things...at times we wouldn't even be able to stretch and cool down in the studio as you would normally do after class because Monica had to be filmed to discuss the evening's or day's events. Being denied those little, routine things had some surprisngly large effects (not least the amount of injuries sustained by the other dancers). PS: Sorry for the long reply! Edited February 23, 2014 by Janet McNulty Edited at request of Sky Dancer to remove 2 names - new text in red 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan McNulty Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Mel, welcome to the Forum. Thank you so much for telling us about your participation in the programme. I do hope you will continue to post. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna C Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 I echo Janet's welcome, Mel. It's fascinating and very helpful to hear from a participant. Hope you will stay around and continue to post. :-) 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mimi66 Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 (edited) Skydancer, thank you for your reply. Interesting to find how these things work.... [....] What doesn't come across in the programme was just how emotionally tense and stressful the 'classes' and 'rehearsals' were. Not only were some people having to deal with learning ballet for the first time, others were putting absurd amounts of pressure on themselves (I would be guilty of that!), it was weird having cameras filming class time and all those moments that you would ordinarily want to internalise things. Also the concept that was beginning to emerge was one of broken dreams, lost opportunities and hopes and not a celebration of the movement potential of the human body. I definitely found it a psychological challenge, and although the others may not admit it they may well have done too, so it was difficult to have a balanced reaction to things...at times we wouldn't even be able to stretch and cool down in the studio as you would normally do after class because Monica had to be filmed to discuss the evening's or day's events. Being denied those little, routine things had some surprisngly large effects (not least the amount of injuries sustained by the other dancers). [...] I can assure you that how hard you have worked for your performance did came across in the end - although not until the last episode. That was why I liked that episode. Well done! xxx mimi66 Edited February 22, 2014 by mimi66 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
primrose Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 I have just reread my post and it does sound offensive. However I do believe that the dancers were not always shown at their best.It certainly did not tell us how much time and dedication some of the dancers give each week to training. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LupusMelis Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Hello everyone Thanks so much for making me feel welcome here! I'll definitely be sticking around Primrose, I didn't take any offense at your post! As a dancer it really did feel to me like our 'Swan Lake' was a bit of a pantomime. You're completely right that we weren't shown at our best in the footage that was used in the final episodes.We had some lovely classes with Wayne, during which he taught us Princess Florine's variation from SB (demi-pointe only) and we all had a go at promenading in arabesque with the gentlemen (which they really enjoyed and got to learn valuable lessons about weight placement, balance etc)...so it's a real shame that these didn't make the final edit. But that's Reality TV for you, I suppose! And just so you all know, this show was intially sold to us as an arts documentary! 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna C Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 I've just watched the performance on 4OD and I wonder if part of the "pantomime" aura perhaps came from the makeup and costumes? It must have been difficult to get the makeup right - it has to be bold enough to avoid the features being bleached out by lights and distance, yet not so heavy that it looks "panto"-ish. It was perhaps unfortunate that there were so many camera close-ups on the dancers' faces because at that distance some of the makeup did look much too heavy and almost clown-like; particularly Odette's (Hannah's?). Shame because she is very pretty indeed. Mel, did you all have to do your own makeup? Or were you given advice? I should add that apart from the makeup and some irritating camera work, I was very impressed with the dancing. I didn't focus on anybody's size at all but was engrossed in watching the ballet technique and some very impressive acting. So if the producers and editors were hoping to make the dancers into any sort of laughing stock (which I hope they weren't), they failed. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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