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"Big Ballet" - Wayne Sleep TV programme


hoobydigger

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We have already mentioned "Tall Ballet" and "Short Ballet", but what about:-

 

bowed legged ballet - with Natalia Osipova coaching

 

flat footed ballet - can't think of any coach..

 

no arch ballet - again can't think of any coach...

 

The possibility is endless.

Edited by mimi66
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There were things I liked about the programme and things I didn't like. I felt the good things about it were:

  • The women enjoyed the experience of auditioning
  • They loved dance when they were younger and wanted to give it another go
  • The programme may encourage more people to try out ballet - always a good thing
  • There was a sense some women may take up classes again, whether they were chosen for the final group or not
  • Wayne Sleep appeared to have a lot of passion for his project, to prove some people wrong

The things I did not like were:

  • The woman who had an RAD examiner mother was not big at all and looked like she was quite petite in size. Even Wayne said she was not big, but when she left the studio Wayne said she was large for a professional company. I thought this was misleading because it sounded like she hadn't become a ballerina because she was 'big'. Instead they should have explained that it was to do with whether or not someone was born with Balanchine-ballerina type proportions.
  • It may not have been deliberate, but I did not like the idea Wayne portrayed that one woman couldn't have been a ballerina because she enjoyed food. Surely this just promotes the idea, 'as long as you starve yourself you will become a ballerina'? Or, 'if you eat well you can't be a ballerina?'
  • There was a woman who got into the Royal Ballet when she was younger but had to leave when she stopped eating. She had wonderful feet and perfect turnout (or close to it). She looked quite petite in size as well, but they never said that stopping eating is not the way to become a professional dancer.
  • It felt like they were saying to some of the women, 'if you were lighter, you would have made it', which we all know there is no such guarantee
  • Wayne's remarks about 'fat' people - it was unnecessary

The thing that annoyed me the most was the fact that they did not explain that the Balanchine-ballerina look is a specific body type that people are born with, not gained by losing lots of weight or starving yourself. I found it disturbing that it sounded like 'as long as you starve yourself, you will make it in the ballet world'. They may not have deliberately promoted this idea, but this was what I felt.

Edited by Dancer Sugar Plum
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Having seen the programme, I am a bit unsettled...

 

Mostly I am somewhat puzzled by how the participants to this show seem to be craving to do "performance", or to be under the spot light.  I am not saying it's a bad thing - just wondered, why is this craving? Why just poping into local adult ballet class and start learning ballet isn't good enough?

 

If what they said on the TV was true, they have not danced ballet for a while, or never have done ballet before - so why start going back (or just start) ballet by doing a performance? Wouldn't someone thought of simply going back to any one of the local adult class?

 

Perhaps people find it easier in this case, as they assumed (correctly) there everyone else there will be more or less the same size? 

 

A lot of question marks for me. 

 

Oh, I enjoyed watching "Christine" dance - she was at the RBS at 16...

Edited by mimi66
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How about geriatric ballet?

 

Uh - no.

 

I and some of my class mates decided to call it "the third age" ballet - at least when we get there.

 

It is going to be great, as we can all have our personal barre (aka zimmerframe).

 

I would love to have Maya Plisetskaya as the coach... though she is probably much fitter than  me!

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I agree with you mimi, why suddenly expose yourself on television now? If you've got confidence to do that, then surely you have confidence to attend an adult ballet class. I also hated the point that the producers were clearly showing was the chippy tea, sweets and going for a Chinese. I know that the kids at upper ballet schools have some of these foods as treats of course they do. However they are athletes and they are in training. They are given advise by nutritionalists to eat the right foods to feed their energy levels etc. I also hated the comment that some of them could have made company level, possibly not it's very very tough training. Regardless of perfect physique, only the determined, focused, hard working and toughest dancers will make it to company level.

 

Big and huge people can dance, why not and it's a good form of exercise. It's nice to also see ballet put on the map again.

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Maybe "2nd chance" would have been a better title?

 

I enjoyed it, my dance teacher knows one of the dancers and as soon as Christine did her jump, I knew it was her! Lovely feet and beats,landing in a well placed 5th :)

 

...but it was rather cringey at the strategically placed fish & chip supper, or "off to get a chocolate bar" moments.

 

However what really bemused me was Wayne's attitude to eating. From what I understood he was making the programme to show anybody can dance and that size shouldn't stop them. Then in the next breath he's saying that it's such a shame that so and so likes food as they could have been a lovely dancer? I think the focus was too much on food being a problem for those wanting to do ballet and I worry that it may fuel more problems with eating disorders in those watching, rather than help those wanting to dance,

 

Just my thoughts after programme 1 :!

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I enjoyed it on the whole but agree completely with the food comments and the chip and chocolate moments.

 

It will be interesting to see how it progresses..

 

DH said that if they (the dancers) are doing all the stuff that DD does then surely they will all get...er...smaller anyway. He was a bit bemused by the whole thing. Would rather have watched Brooklyn99 (or whatever it is called).

 

:)

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The overridding impression that I was left with was not about what Wayne Sleep did or didn't do or say, or how the producers edited or focussed on certain elements; it was about the joy that these women clearly got just taking part, putting old demons to rest, enjoying the audition process, seeing Swan Lake (or indeed any ballet) for the first time, and the fire it relit within them....

 

They were suddenly experiencing the joy, anticipation and excitment (and for some of them the disappointment of not getting through) that they never thought they would ever be a part of and for that reason the programme should actually be applauded. 

 

I don't see any ridicule or maliciousness on any part (except maybe Derek Dean's dismissal of the project when Wayne Sleep was talking to him at the Albert Hall).  The only thing that slightly grates is the title of the show but I'm going to really enjoy watching these ladies learn, grow and perform! :)

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I am not sure I can bring myself to watch this. I don't know if it the malicious media or the title but the whole thing leaves a nasty taste in my mouth. We have recorded it and I might watch the first one just to see what I think of it.

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I watched it last night.

 

Having seen the programme, I am a bit unsettled...

 

Mostly I am somewhat puzzled by how the participants to this show seem to be craving to do "performance", or to be under the spot light.  I am not saying it's a bad thing - just wondered, why is this craving? Why just poping into local adult ballet class and start learning ballet isn't good enough?

 

If what they said on the TV was true, they have not danced ballet for a while, or never have done ballet before - so why start going back (or just start) ballet by doing a performance? Wouldn't someone thought of simply going back to any one of the local adult class?

 

Perhaps people find it easier in this case, as they assumed (correctly) there everyone else there will be more or less the same size? 

 

A lot of question marks for me. 

 

Oh, I enjoyed watching "Christine" dance - she was at the RBS at 16...

 

 

I agree with you mimi, why suddenly expose yourself on television now? If you've got confidence to do that, then surely you have confidence to attend an adult ballet class. I also hated the point that the producers were clearly showing was the chippy tea, sweets and going for a Chinese. I know that the kids at upper ballet schools have some of these foods as treats of course they do. However they are athletes and they are in training. They are given advise by nutritionalists to eat the right foods to feed their energy levels etc. I also hated the comment that some of them could have made company level, possibly not it's very very tough training. Regardless of perfect physique, only the determined, focused, hard working and toughest dancers will make it to company level.

Big and huge people can dance, why not and it's a good form of exercise. It's nice to also see ballet put on the map again.

 

 

I would guess for the same reason that people do X-Factor or BGT or even Big Brother!

 

I watched it last night and found some of the things Wayne Sleep commented cringeworthy but I admired his overall enthusiasm.  On the whole the programme came over better than I expected because of the enthusiasm of the dancers involved.

 

There were positive comments about the programme from some of the dancers I follow on twitter.  It was interesting to see the pro's views.

 

There are a couple of reviews included in Today's links:  http://www.balletcoforum.com/index.php?/topic/5952-dance-links-wb-sunday-february-2-2014/#entry78250

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The overridding impression that I was left with was not about what Wayne Sleep did or didn't do or say, or how the producers edited or focussed on certain elements; it was about the joy that these women clearly got just taking part, putting old demons to rest, enjoying the audition process, seeing Swan Lake (or indeed any ballet) for the first time, and the fire it relit within them....

 

They were suddenly experiencing the joy, anticipation and excitment (and for some of them the disappointment of not getting through) that they never thought they would ever be a part of and for that reason the programme should actually be applauded. 

 

I don't see any ridicule or maliciousness on any part (except maybe Derek Dean's dismissal of the project when Wayne Sleep was talking to him at the Albert Hall).  The only thing that slightly grates is the title of the show but I'm going to really enjoy watching these ladies learn, grow and perform! :)

As I said, I only had chance to see the first part, but dtadmin has summed it up for me ! I loved watching the ladies and the men getting excited and giving their all at the audition - and from what I saw of that, well I'd say most of the ladies still do the odd class - most of them knew what they were doing. x

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A point of information if I may.

 

The email from Northern Ballet to which I referred yesterday described Monica Loughman as a prima ballerina. I must confess that her name did not ring any bells which surprised me because I read the reviews in the papers (well, at least, the Independent, Guardian and FT) as well as Dancing Times and follow blogs like Ballet News so I usually know what's going on and who's who even if I have not actually seen the dancer on stage. It is not often that a prima ballerina escapes my notice altogether.

 

Feeling somewhat surprised and ashamed at this lacuna in my knowledge I googled Monica Loughman and found her website and her entry in Wikipedia. I was rather surprised to read in Wikipedia that she claims to have created Ireland's national ballet because I attended a performance of a company that purported to be the national ballet of Ireland at either the Gate or the Abbey on my honeymoon as long ago as 1982. Moreover, my ballet teacher is Irish although she trained in Australia and, of course, Dame Ninette de Valois came from the Emerald Isle. However, that is by the by.

 

The information  that I seek from my fellow members is

(1)   whether anyone on this forum has seen Loughman dance and,

(2)   if so, in what ballet and role, and

(3)   what was his or her opinion of Loughman's performance?

 

If anyone knows when and where she will next be on stage I should like to see her.  If she dances regularly in Dublin that would suit me very well because that city is actually cheaper and easier to reach than London,

Edited by terpsichore
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Terpsichore, she also featured in this series

 

Ballet Chancers is an Irish television programme broadcast on RTÉ One in late 2008. Featuring the ballerina, Monica Loughman, it began on 16 November 2008. In the show Loughman attempts to turn six streetwise hip hop dancers into elegant ballet dancers over a period of four months. At the end of the show they may, if successful, partake in a performance of The Nutcracker with Loughman's own company, The Irish Youth Russian Ballet Company which took place in the 21 December finale.n the following documentary series'

 

It is still on youtube if you search for 'Ballet Chancers' and at the beginning of episode one there is information on Monica's training at the Perm State Ballet School stating that she went on to dance with the company. 

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Ellie and lisabeds

 

Many thanks for your responses.

 

I had already picked up the references to her training in Perm and the Ballet Chancers from her Wikipedia entry but I also picked up this clip of her dancing The Dying Swan which is the reason I am showing an interest in her.

 

The google search reveals a lot of sensational stories about her such as meeting her lover at the checkout, turning hip-hop dancers into ballet dancers and of course the programme that was on last night but I think she deserves to be taken a bit more seriously than that. That's why I would like to see her for myself on stage.

 

I think Diaghilev came from Perm if I am not mistaken.

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It's light entertainment..., X Factor in tights!! Maybe they'll get Linford Christie to do a series about 'fat athletes'  next! I'm fat and believe you me, there's no way I'd want to stuff it all into a tu-tu and perform on a stage at my age! But whatever floats your boat, I suppose!

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I liked the programme more than I thought I would. There were some lovely dancers among the auditionees. I'm glad the lady with the RAD examiner Mum got in despite being not really "big enough" according to Wayne.

 

I thought Monica was very good and am looking forward to seeing her teaching. There was certainly much less of the "freak show" element than I feared, which was a relief.

 

Things I didn't like:

 

The references to professional ballerinas as "stick insects" - very insulting and actually not true.

The amount of times that food was discussed.

The mention of "real women doing ballet" as opposed to "Big Ballet" - I know we have discussed this recently but I don't like "size-ist" behaviour whichever way round it is. Why would slim, athletic and finely toned women be any less "real" than curvy women?

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I am Yorkshire based and actually saw the original promo material from channel 4 inviting people to audition for this tv programme.

I do not remember the emphasis being so size biased but more about people who loved ballet and for whatever reasons never had the opportunity to pursue their dance dreams.

I did actually consider auditioning (for about 30 seconds) but couldn't risk my dd never speaking to me again!! :-D.

Interesting how size has become the main focus even in the titling of the programme.

In the main I did enjoy it, but agree that there was too much focus on food and the reinforcement of some of the stereotypes associated with ballet.

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I liked the programme more than I thought I would. There were some lovely dancers among the auditionees. I'm glad the lady with the RAD examiner Mum got in despite being not really "big enough" according to Wayne.

 

I thought Monica was very good and am looking forward to seeing her teaching. There was certainly much less of the "freak show" element than I feared, which was a relief.

 

Things I didn't like:

 

The references to professional ballerinas as "stick insects" - very insulting and actually not true.

The amount of times that food was discussed.

The mention of "real women doing ballet" as opposed to "Big Ballet" - I know we have discussed this recently but I don't like "size-ist" behaviour whichever way round it is. Why would slim, athletic and finely toned women be any less "real" than curvy women?

 

Are stick insects thin because they don't eat? No. They are thin because that's the way nature has designed their bodies, and they are ideally suited to their environment.

 

It's just as horrible to call a narrow person a stick insect as it is to call a wide person an elephant.

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I'm thin and I live on sweet stuff rather that's savoury. I have always been this shape and size. The one thing I can't do and have no desire to do is dance. However when I was younger I loved running and martial arts. I was fit very strong and thin. Now I'm still slim but unfit and not that strong anymore. We are all different shapes and sizes, and we can all have hobbies and interests. Only certain people will become the elite few, whether that is in sport, music or the arts, they are the gifted ones.

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Are stick insects thin because they don't eat? No. They are thin because that's the way nature has designed their bodies, and they are ideally suited to their environment.

 

It's just as horrible to call a narrow person a stick insect as it is to call a wide person an elephant.

Exactly! And of course because of the amount of dance they do!

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I was so thin as a teenager than one extremely spiteful girl said that I looked as if I had just come of Belsen. I have never forgotten this. It hurt like hell but what really offended me was the fact that she had used the most tragic event of the Twentieth century to insult me. Stupid cow!

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I have discovered the following information about Monica Loughman if anyone else is interested:

  • her company has The Nutcracker, Giselle and La Sylphide in its repertoire;
  • it plans to add Swan Lake, Don Quixote, Sleeping Beauty and Coppelia;
  • it has just finished touring the Republic of Ireland with The Nutcracker;
  • it intends to tour the Iirish Republic with Swan Lake this year and has even registered a website for the tour in the Irish country code top level domain space at www.swanlake.ie though if you click that link it redirects to The Nutcracker page mentioned above; and
  • there is some footage of Parts I and II of La Sylphide which I think are quite good.

​I wouldn't mind buying enduring 30 minutes of Ryanair to see Swan Lake when it opens.    Perhaps whoever looks after announcements will keep a weather eye for the dates and venues for Swan Lake and let us know in case I miss them.  

 

Incidentally, I have also found confirmation that Monica Loughman's is not the only company in the Irish Republic. There is indeed a National Ballet of Ireland  which will dance Carmen in Limerick and with prices between 10 and 20 euros the tickets seem very reasonable even if one has to endure Ryanair to get there. I will review the performance and report back.

Edited by terpsichore
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Thanks for the links Terpsichore, I'll watch them tomorrow. Although I haven't ever seen her 'in action', Monica certainly came across as the 'stereotypical ballerina' (and I mean this in the best way possible...tough but sensitive and hard working) and is beautiful to boot...I imagine that the TV stations need the good audience ratings as much as theatres need 'bums on seats' and from what I saw yesterday Monica seems an excellent choice to keep people watching and talking about ballet. I wonder if the show she did in Ireland was similar to the Ballet Hoo (?) programme BRB did a few years ago. x

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