"Big Ballet" - Wayne Sleep TV programme

[Moomin]

Is it just me or do most of the ladies in that photo not actually look very large?! As mimi says there are adult classes up and down the country with many dancers of a size 12/14. As we age we tend to put on weight so not too surprising really.

[Fiz]

I am a size 12 but one of the women in my class was petite although well covered so she was smaller than me altogether while the teens and twenty somethings were a size 6\8. I felt vast in comparison!

[LinMM]

Well I am a size 16.....well was until a couple of months ago but am now in between a 14 and 16 but somehow I know I'm never going toget my skinny arms of youth back again even if I can reduce the backside a bit!!

 

I'm one of those "big boned" people Wayne is talking about so even if I didn't have much fat on me I would probably weigh too much to be lifted ballet style. Just thinking of Osipova on Monday night......gossamer light....though she is quite muscular but small framed!!

 

Maybe we should all measure around out wrists (or take the measurement from shoulder tip to shoulder tip ) and post these measurements in case people don't really understand that difference in frame size is important not just how "fat" you are!!!

 

Ive a soft spot for Wayne though as years ago I used to attend a Saturday class at the Andrew Hardy studio in South Kensington and just occasionally Wayne would be in class. But he was very unassuming and worked really hard in class......if you hadn't known you would never have guessed he was a star with the Royal at the time......well apart from his wonderful technique of course!

 

I really hope this programme is what I think it is and is not going to be exploitative and laughing at the individuals taking part.......that just doesn't sound like Wayne to me.

[Moomin]

My wrist is 51/2 inches, was size 6/8 until after kids :-( I've always had heavy legs though!

[Tulip]

My legs are like two sticks with knees that resemble apples knobbly knees, I am a size eight. I would never be a ballet dancer. Because I have good posture a long neck etc, people have asked if I was a dancer. I can't dance for toffee it is comical to watch. I was sporty when I was younger though.

[LinMM]

My wrist is 7inches (18cms) and shoulder tip to tip is 15and a half inches (39.5cms)

Height is just under 5ft 8ins but its only a couple of cms under so usually say 5ft 8ins.

 

Not ideal measurements for BALLET at least (even if I did have the talent which Ihavent) at Professional level.

Probably some other forms of dance including contemporary and musical theatre styles etc one can get away with being slightly larger but not so much for ballet. However you can be larger and be able to dance to a reasonably high standard. I have seen dancers bigger than myself....but better in technique....in classes many times!!

Edited January 29, 2014 by LinMM

[Fiz]

I hate the "look, point and snigger" school of TV. Shame on Wayne Sleep!

[Dancer Sugar Plum]

Is it just me or do most of the ladies in that photo not actually look very large?!

 

That thought came into my head too, Moomin. And since when was size 12 considered 'plus size'?!

 

I agree very much with your end comments Mimi

However in the Standard tonight there is a comment from Wayne Sleep about the programme in which he says he wants to show that "big" people can do ballet.

He talks about bigger dancers being put at the back of classes when they did ballet as a child which I have no idea is true for that many people or not.

But he then does go on to say that he knows bigger dancers and 'big boned' individuals won't really make it in the Professional world but that doesn't mean they can't dance etc.

 

I have met women, not younger than myself, who did ballet as children. Some of them have said they were put into the back of class as children because they 'weren't good enough'. I'm not sure what is defined by 'weren't good enough'. They never mentioned size as being the issue and these women would be considered slim in the 'normal' world anyway so I think size was not the issue for them.

 

Also, I'm not sure 'big' is right word for what Wayne Sleep is trying to prove. I think he's trying to prove that you don't have to have Balanchine-ballerina-type proportions to do ballet, no matter what your age. But that would be quite hard to put into a title that the general public would understand.

[mimi66]

 

 

Also, I'm not sure 'big' is right word for what Wayne Sleep is trying to prove. I think he's trying to prove that you don't have to have Balanchine-ballerina-type proportions to do ballet, no matter what your age. But that would be quite hard to put into a title that the general public would understand.

 

And I think this point has already been proven, given that we adult mortals are stil dancing - albeit not professionally.

Edited January 29, 2014 by mimi66

[mimi66]

I also agree with other posts above and question the appropriateness of using "size12 upwards" as their definition of "big" or whatever.

 

I bet Zenaida Yanowsky or Darcey Bussell would take size 12 or even 14 highstreet brand clothes if only because of their hight.  Also I am sure every woman knows that clothes sizes differ from its make, either brand or the design. It is a well-known trick to reduce size numbers - for example the brands who markets 40+ women, so that they can feel they can stil fit into "size 10".

 

LinMM, I measured myself as well! My wrist is 5.7inches (15cm), my shoulder 17.7 inches (44cm) and  let's just say I am no longer as slim as I used to be (french 36 with 38 bottoms - sort of 6/8?)  and in any case I am too short to become dancer nowadays...as every ballet companies to cruiseship jobs you need to be at least 5'5 ish (without heels or pointes).  Of course, the real issue for me is not the size but the ability to dance in this instance.

 

I wonder why they did not make a programme about dancers who are too short, instead of too "big".  Wayne Sleep here wouold have had an excellent input!  A cynic in me says that is because if you pick well-proportioned short people it looks fine on the stage. Plus the fact that it is mostly women who will tend to put on more weight as they get older (healthy that way, anyway).  I mean, if they put "short (or little) ballet", it would upset a lot of men, which means no sponsors for the programme.

 

Please note that I am not attacking Wayne Sleep here.  I am sure what was preseted to him and the end results after editing are quite different...

 

I fear this is another progrmme to reinforce the wrong belief that size is everything in ballet... After all it might be more comforting to consider one could not be good at ballet purely because of ones size than to wake up to the fact that ballet dancers go through years and years of training at the right age (in their childhood) and that ballet is not something one can master through Youtube or even by personal coaching in 6 months, or not even 2-3 years  (let's make that almost forever).

Edited January 29, 2014 by mimi66

[Anjuli_Bai]

I think there are two issues here.

 

One is the reality of someone who is overweight attaining professional employment in a ballet company.  

 

The second issue is putting a child - or anyone - in the back of the room because of weight.

 

As for the first issue - I think that is one that sorts itself out.  If the parents cannot realistically see the landscape, the landscape will make itself known.

 

As for the second issue - for me, as a teacher, that is never acceptable.  I can't imagine doing that to any child.

 

The only time I would step in and forbid participation is if an overweight student - adult or child - wanted to go on pointe.

 

When I say "overweight" I do not mean the truly obese.  If someone is medically obese, jumping around in ballet class could have damaging issues.  

 

However, a balllet class could be designed to accommodate such students.

 

When I was teaching, I never placed people in the center for centre work.  I let them sort themselves out - and then at intervals front lines went back and back iines went front.

[Fiz]

I'm 6" and 16", Lin, but I don't know the meaning of the conversion instead of using standard dress sizes.

[LinMM]

My shoulder tip to shoulder tip was wrong above its 18 inches not 15!! I was wondering why Mimi's wrist was smallish and then her shoulder width was bigger than mine!! These things are usually in some sort of proportion on most people!!

 

When I was younger in my twenties and thirties, my top half was about a size 10 and bottom half size 12. In the next two decades it went up similarly top size 12 bottom size14 until I crept up to a size 18 in my late fifties!!

But also somewhere in this time my upper arms seem to just suddenly be bigger!!

When I started losing weight during the last two years or so I'm also two different sizes but its the other way round!!

My top was 18 and bottom 16 then I went to in between these two sizes for both top and bottom and now I'm a 16 on top and a 14 on the bottom......in Marks and Spencers and Monsoon sizes.....which tend to be a tad more generous than say H and M!

 

Sorry to go on about this. I'm also interested in various medical charts which when you look up you've weight for your height and age there is often almost a two stone difference covering the "normal" weight So if for example you are 5ft 8ins the normal range is between just over 9 and a half stone to,just under 11 and a half stone.

I'm now back within the "normal" range but nearer the upper end of the scale and am aiming to get to somewhere around the middle of this scale!!

I'm assuming this difference is to allow for different size frames!! I'm obviously not over weight but I am big for ballet!!

[Moomin]

You're meant to use bmi with waist circumference as well as its ok to have a little extra padding around the hips but not so good around the waist as that's where all your vital organs are! It's also bad to gain a lot of weight as an adult. So not meant to gain more than x amount after you're 18. Can't remember how much it is, but not much :-/

[Fiz]

It's no fun getting older, is it, ladies?

[LinMM]

No Fiz it isn't!! Well not physically anyway! There are some perks....like having a bit more inner confidence!! There's always something bugging us at whatever age we are it seems!

[mimi66]

The old proverb "the youth is wasted on youth" is quite true - in most cases.

[mimi66]

Picking up from Anjuli's point - a bigger child being pushed at the back of the ballet class.

 

It is hard to believe that is happening - may be it is just me but I have never known any teachers who would place someone back because of her size. It could be because they are a bit slow to pick up enchainements or new to the class and have to catch up, but even so everyone is encouraged to swap rows anyway.

 

And, I do not understand how this issue (a child being picked on solely because she is "chubby" ) relates to  setting up an amatuer adult dance troupe of certain sizes, don them in white tights and tutu, and make them do an extract (? must be) of Swan Lake.

 

IMHO, NOONE over 12 looks great in white tutu and tights, silm or otherwise, unless they are trained ballet dancers. Why go there, then?

[Thecatsmother]

It's interesting the areas of discussion which have come out of this on the forum. It does make me wonder how it will be received by those with no ballet insight. I guess the viewer will have a completely different take to the participants involved.

 

I would not choose to return to a tutu either even though I still have a couple of rehearsal skirts as memories of events/competitions. I guess just as good costume design makes a difference to professional performances, this can also be the case with adults in terms of finding things which feel personally comfortable to dance in but also are flattering to the viewer if in a performance context but I know many adults are not looking to perform.

[mimi66]

[...]

 

IMHO, NOONE over 12 looks great in white tutu and tights, silm or otherwise, unless they are trained ballet dancers. Why go there, then?

 

I meant short tutus... I think a lot of us can get away with romantic tutus (long ones) - also very handy for disguising bent knees.

 

stil, white is a very challenging colour on not-so-young-any-more...

Edited January 29, 2014 by mimi66

[Michelle_Richer]

An interesting perspective, I guess it’s shared by most, I think all the adult classes I belong to, those of us that go as far as leotards with chiffon skirts are in a minority, personally I’m extremely comfortable in that type dress whatever the colour or style, for me it’s a bit like an appropriate ballet uniform. For public performances I have no problem with Tutu’s (Short or long) in fact try keeping me out of one if it’s deemed appropriate for that character roll. Often they are not allowed as they are seen as an obstacle financially for many adult dancers and I appreciate and respect that. But given the opportunity I will definitely be there in one of my many tutu in spite of not being a spring chicken, I guess a lot of that comes from being an active social dancer where scantly clad outfits are deemed very appropriate and basically I have never grown up.

[mimi66]

In all adult open classes I have been to, most, if not all, people wear leotards and chiffon wrap skirt (or tiny shorts) - unless in a beginners' class when someone is stil new to ballet.  (However, you still don't see white leotards...).

 

But then what one wears in class is not the same as what one wears in performance.

 

In performance, what is flattering to the viewers' eyes are very important. Perhaps a bit less so for amature dancers, but still very important if one has any artistic integrity about what one is aiming to do.

Edited January 30, 2014 by mimi66

[mimi66]

I digressed a bit when I mentioned white (short) tutus...

 

My real point was that Swan Lake I do not think is a good choice for most amature companies to perform, unless you are doing non-swans scenes, for example spanish dance or russian dance.

 

It is a bit like asking someone who has only ever skated for 2-3 years (if that) to do triple turns in the air.

 

There are other ballet which would suite better (and artistically better performed) for amature dance troups like Big Ballet - no doubt Wayne Sleep can think of many such works.

 

But of course it had to be Swan Lake. Because for most viewers of Channel 4, anything else isn't ballet.

 

Why isn't anyone challenging that sort of prejudice?

[Thecatsmother]

Did I imagine it or is Derek Deane seen briefly in the clip?

[Michelle_Richer]

Hi mimi

Well I guess we go to different types of open classes, my consists of the smaller classes as well as a number from the large ballet companies like ENB, Northern Ballet and Scottish Ballet. The theme still remains the same, at best about a third present in loe’s and skirts, the majority is in leggings and tops.

As for white, I have warn white for Swan lake workshops and master classes as well as ENB. I wore white all week at the last LAB Intensive. I certainly have warn pink at ENB and other classes and I also remember warring red one Christmas. But usually like most it’s black.

 

As with most adult performances it’s down to the financial constrains of most dancers where a good compromise and presentation comes from an appropriately coloured leotard and long romantic tutu.

 

My classes now other than ENB are all performance based, that is, they do at least one on stage performance a year, some do much more. So consequently I have leos of all colours and a large variety of Tutu’s of different styles, from the short circular (Sticky out), to medium (not unlike the romantic tutu length to the full dress. They are there to match the character being portrayed rather than my own identity.

 

As for Swan Lake, I've already done several scenes from act2, just love it. Needless to say I have the tutu and head dress for that one too. I particularly like Odette's solo, been there done that.

Edited January 30, 2014 by Michelle_Richer

[Ellie]

Derek Deane ? After seeing him in action in Agony and Ecstacy (ENB), I hope not !!! 

[LinMM]

I'm a bit behind here I didn't know it was to be the inevitable Swan Lake!! I haven't seen the clip people are talking about.

 

I suppose whichever of the main ballets you choose problems can be foreseen for amateurs!! Giselle has a lot of corps type work but then some of the dancing in that in the main role is a tad difficult to say the least!!

Fille could work but not so much for the corps to do or even Coppelia perhaps?

 

Don't talk to me about white!! It's a horrible colour if you are of the larger size!! My very least favourite colour.....especially in leotards!!

 

Yes Derek Deane.....I honestly don't know whether he was acting up for the cameras in that film or that is really him. Perhaps he is helping to choreograph it but hope he stays where his talents may lay which doesn't appear to be dealing with people!!

[Dancer Sugar Plum]

I digressed a bit when I mentioned white (short) tutus...

 

My real point was that Swan Lake I do not think is a good choice for most amature companies to perform, unless you are doing non-swans scenes, for example spanish dance or russian dance.

 

It is a bit like asking someone who has only ever skated for 2-3 years (if that) to do triple turns in the air.

 

 

I agree with you, Mimi66.

 

I haven't seen the clip yet, but I think the 'problem' with trying the classics as a recreational dancer is the difficulty of achieving the correct technique and line, plus telling the story as well. For this programme, it sounds like it will be complete beginners trying to dance one of the classics.

 

It's not that the recreational dancer is unable to ever achieve it. Rather, the 'problem' is not enough years of training to do the classics justice (for most amateur dancers). It's the professional dancers' job to make everything they do on stage look easy (to put it simply). Making it look easy takes years of training, as many people have mentioned already. Even 'easy' sections of variations, such as the pose passe entrance of the Sugar Plum Fairy in the Nutcracker, is a nightmare to do technically correctly, make yourself look light and weightless and make it all look easy at the same time. On top of all that, to your audience you also have to look like you're having a wonderful time too! Therefore I agree that they shouldn't have chosen Swan Lake.

 

It is always better to do something technically easier but do it well on stage, rather than something that is way beyond your current level, badly. I was given this piece of advice, which I agree with very much.

Edited January 30, 2014 by Dancer Sugar Plum

[mimi66]

Yes, I think Derek Deane is featured - he is I think being cast as a "baddy" for saying you can't be a professional ballet dancer unless you have a certain physique.  Which we know very well it is much more than about just being slim, but that is conveniently overlooked...

 

LinMM, I think white (as in all white or large proportion of what one wears) is very hard not only on those with larger frame but also on most people over certain age - in my opinion even those over 35-ish. Again, unless you are trained dancer or an actor or a model, AND with a lot of professional back-up and within a certain context. 

 

I am talking about how it looks on stage, as a certain artistic production only - I am not talking about wearing it  for their own pleasure. Totally different thing and not what this topic is about.

 

Here is a link to the trailer.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rapMkyjEaaM

Edited January 30, 2014 by mimi66

[taxi4ballet]

Picking up from Anjuli's point - a bigger child being pushed at the back of the ballet class.

 

It is hard to believe that is happening - may be it is just me but I have never known any teachers who would place someone back because of her size. It could be because they are a bit slow to pick up enchainements or new to the class and have to catch up, but even so everyone is encouraged to swap rows anyway.

 

Perhaps it did happen in years gone by, but I have spoken to my dd (who started classes at 3 and is now 14) and she says she has never ever been aware of anyone relegated to the back row or made to feel uncomfortable about their size.

[LinMM]

I think most Dance schools are keen to hang on to their clientele these days!!

 

I remember being in the back row though......but because I was always one of the tallest so nothing sinister!!

 

Now Ive seen the video clip I think the girls do look larger than size 12/14 as another poster suggested. But some looked to have good flexibility at any rate!!

Well will watch the first one and see how it goes.

[mimi66]

In fact, I think in my days it was tall girls who were actively discouraged from doing ballet, not chubby ones.  Anyone remember about the late Princess Diana? I think it was the case until about mid-1980's?

 

I don't know exactly when, but that all changed almost overnigt(?).  I know that some young girls who started ballet in early?mid?80's and suffered from this change... They went into ballet believing being short was ok, or even better, then when they finished their training the table turned and they were too short to join a ballet company.

Edited January 30, 2014 by mimi66

[taxi4ballet]

In fact, I think in my days it was tall girls who were actively discouraged from doing ballet, not chubby ones.  

 

Yes, happened to me! The teacher told my mum I was going to be too tall (I was about 11 at the time), although looking back it was probably his way of kindly telling her I was useless...  (I was!)