"Big Ballet" - Wayne Sleep TV programme

[Lisa O`Brien]

I'm politically incorrect by nature and far too old to change, so a lard a**e is a lard a**e in my opinion and being fat can mean a short life. People should be shamed into losing weight.  Outside of London (and it's pretty bad inside London) the size of many people is disgusting, I don't mean just overweight but morbidly obese.  My oldest friend is dying as a result of diabetes and I have very strong views on the subject.

MAB, I`m sure you`re intentions are honourable and you would never try and deliberately offend anyone. But the reality is, you cannot put everyone fat into the same category as one another, and simply "shame them" into losing weight. I used to be very underweight as a child, would eat practically nothing.Teen years,and throughout my dancing years,normal,although a little bit obsessive about wanting to be thin. Luckily, I stopped dieting at just under 8 Stones, [i`m 5FT 7 1/2 In tall], so just managed to nip it in the bud. When I stopped dancing I put a bit of weight on, naturally. But now, [at the age of nearly 46] I am very overweight and have been for over ten years. I used to think I was just a fat,greedy so and so, but it is so much more complex than that. When I am depressed, I turn to food to make myself feel better. When I am in a good mood,I turn to food to reaffirm my happiness. When I am stressed out I turn to food to calm me down. When I have made the effort to go to an OA meeting even though, at eight o`clock at night, I am tired and don`t feel like leaving the house, but push myself to go, because I know it is what I need, guess what I do?  I reward myself with food when I get home for having been good and gone to a meeting.!!! I know, how insane is that????  As I said, I attend a local Overeaters Anonymous meeting , which follows the Twelve Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous [changing the word "Alcohol" with food ]. I have only started going the last 5 or 6 weeks, so I`m still learning the ropes. But what I DO know is my compulsive overeating,or comfort eating is psychological, probably stemming from a few very traumatic incidents when I was a child that I never properly came to terms with. So I ask you, In the nicest way possible,MAB, the next time you see a fat person; instead of labelling them, just stop and think for a moment if perhaps that person eats to fulfill something missing in their lives, or to suppress painful emotions; the same way others turn to alcohol, drugs, shopping,or one night stands .

[pas de chat]

I wonder if they are considering making other programmes about people who had to give up their dreams of becoming (for instance) a jockey...

or how about those who just cannot afford to be a ballet dancer

[Dance*is*life]

I hate reality programmes in general, I find them alternately boring and embarrassing!   I don't think I would like to see this programme it strikes me as being a bit of exploitation.  If "larger ladies" want to dance, why shouldn't they? But I can see people laughing at them  - it seems rather cruel exposure.  I have several little girls who how shall I say it delicately - do not have the accepted proportions of a ballet dancer??  They still dance very well and get a lot of pleasure from it, so why not.......

[Pups_mum]

Call me a cynic if you like (it's probably true) but Channel 4 aren't exactly reknowned for commisioning sensitive and thoughtful documentaries are they? I suspect that however honourable Wayne Sleep's intentions may have been, this will turn out to be another one of the currently popular "shockumentaries". I would love to be wrong, but I can't see a series of this tyoe pulling in adequate viewing numbers without some kind of shock or humour factor. I find it very depressing that so many of the popular tv series at the moment are based on making fun of other people in some way. The Victorian freak show has been reborn for the digital age.

[CeliB]

_{There seems to be a strange culture amongst some (I stress some as I don't want a barrage of hate mail!) ballet teachers (and also amongst some parents) that you shouldn't be in ballet class unless you have the desire and/or capability to become a classical ballet dancer, Considering that said ballet teacher is generally someone who went through years of ballet training and then became a teacher and not a classical ballet dancer, this seems quite strange. Somehow in other sports or arts endeavours it is acceptible to do it for the love of it or just to get better at it and with no intention of becoming a world superstar......there are plenty of am dram groups, amateur opera groups, running clubs, swimming clubs and dance groups stuffed full of young, old, fat, thin, disabled people all having FUN taking part in their chosen activity. Yes FUN. It is allowed..... I used to swim in a fabulous swimming club where the ex olympic coach would train, criticise and frankly laugh at my god-awful technique. We had a great understanding and I am a much better swimmer for his teaching. My DH learnt to high board dive aged 40- and competed in the GB Masters (he even won a few medals!). What a dull life we would all lead if we only ever did the activities we were perfectly suited to excel at.....}

 

_{edited to try and make font bigger!!}

Edited September 19, 2013 by CeliB

[MAB]

An example of mixed messages?  You cannot comment on the state of the fat EXCEPT when one of them is spilling over onto your seat in the ROH amphi (see audience behaviour).  I'm discovering double standards here.

[Jan McNulty]

I think MAB that it was very much the way you phrased the comment.  As a Northern Fattie I found it downright offensive but chose not reply at the time.

[Anna C]

An example of mixed messages? You cannot comment on the state of the fat EXCEPT when one of them is spilling over onto your seat in the ROH amphi (see audience behaviour). I'm discovering double standards here.

As I have just posted in the thread about Romeo and Juliet fantasy casting; making sweeping generalisations about ANY group - including "the fat" (what a horrid term) - is unwise as it often causes offence.

 

Personally I find your views on overweight people offensive, but they are your views and you are entitled to them. There are no double standards; you have been allowed to comment and your post wasn't removed. I don't see that you have any cause for complaint.

[MAB]

It wasn't a complaint, it was an observation.

[Anna C]

Well your "observation" of perceived double standards was mistaken.

[MAB]

No it isn't, go back and read the 'audience behaviour' thread.

[Anna C]

No MAB. I am not here to argue with you.

 

I found your post about overweight people offensive and you seem surprised by that. If you are unsure why I - and it would seem, others - were offended, I suggest you go back and read what you wrote.

 

Now may we PLEASE get back on track and discuss the programme in question.

[kaledonia]

I don't see any examples of mixed messages MAB nor have I seen anyone being asked not to comment on the state of fat but if you are going to provide such an outrageous, offensive, provocative and IMHO frankly misguided viewpoint, then you cannot be surprised if other people disagree with you and wish to comment themselves to express their own opinions! There are many things I would like to say about your original post but I will limit myself to three observations - the first is that it is not political correctness that stops many people from abusing others by calling them derogatory names but rather it is the recognition that people are not the sum total of their body size and fat/obese people are as deserving and worthy of respect as the slim! As for your other comments about fat people having short lives and fat people being shamed into losing weight I have this to say - I am a historian of medicine, health and healthcare with a special interest in 20th century health and the fact is that despite the present obesity issue (and I am not denying its existence merely your suggestion of how to solve it) the actual situation is that currently in the west the majority of people are healthier and live longer than they have ever done before in recorded history - even for people who are outwith average weight percentiles. And although I accept that this does not mean we should be complacent about our health and the rising obesity levels do need to be tackled in order to ensure the best quality of life for people, nevertheless the issue of obesity is no longer being viewed as merely a health issue but instead the issue is causing the sort of moral panic that has been seen in many societies in the past and that is a dangerous situation! I believe that your comment that fat people should be shamed into losing weight demonstrates moral panic and the statement is facile and misguided. Numerous studies have shown that diets do not work (c. 92.7% failure rate) and the fact is that the majority of people you believe should be shamed into losing weight will have tried to lose weight in the past and then will have gained that weight back and some more as well! It will take many years for the issue of obesity to be solved but one thing's for sure - it will not be solved while we live in such a judgemental society which places more value on people's weight and looks than on their health and wellbeing. I will say no more on this subject although there is much more to be said and more debate to be had but I felt that I had to contribute something as I also have very strong views on the subject.

 

When it comes to Wayne Sleep's Big Ballet - I'm not really sure what to think - I too am not fond of 'shockumentaries' or 'reality' television and I fear this will just mean lots of tears and anguish - however I really hope I am proved wrong as I would love to see many empowered bigger women enjoying ballet and gaining health benefits from taking part! When is it scheduled?

[kaledonia]

I am sorry spannerandpony - I must have been typing my reply when you posted the above (but at least I provided a wee, short comment about the programme in question too)! 

[Anna C]

Welcome to the forum Kaledonia.

 

I'm not sure when the series is due to air. :-)

[taxi4ballet]

it will probably be on a ballet class night, and we will have to record it!

[Anna C]

No doubt! :-)

[Katymac]

Are there any nights which aren't Ballet class nights?

 

In our house we also have 'singing class night' & 'going to bed early as we need to leave at 6:15 for a ballet class night' as well

 

Which leaves no nights at all

[2dancersmum]

Came across their advert for particpants in this programme.

 

"We’re looking for people of all shapes and size...s (large dress sizes, big build, muscular physique, very tall, curvy or just a bit lumpy) to take part in an exciting new ballet production. We want to prove that ballet isn’t just for the petite. You will need a good level of fitness and to be age 18-80."

 

It goes onto say that they want to show that you do not have to be size 6 to do ballet and that they would like dress size for ladies to be 12+ and men to be greater than 32" waist.

 

They were seeing people throughout May and June just for the timescale of things .So maybe not 'fat' people after all - deliberately put in inverted comma as healthy is more important than size in my humble opinion and if size 12+ is 'fat' then I definitely need to consider myself in that category.



 

[Anna C]

That's interesting - I wonder if they accepted any ladies who were size 12? From this quote, it doesn't look likely:

 

"Sleep, 65, had to watch his language on the programme. “I said 'fat’ to start with, but, by God, did I get a bad response from my girls, so I said: 'Lets clear up this situation. You are in this show because you’re big; there are other people who were big who applied, but they weren’t big enough to get onto this show – think how they feel.’ ”

 

I wonder, when it came to it, whether the size 12 ladies weren't big enough for "Big Ballet"? Not enough "shock factor"? :-(

[Lifeafterballet]

I just remembered that French and Saunders clip staring Darcey Bussell ! Made me smile ! Must watch it again on you tube ! So funny !

[bangorballetboy]

Always makes me smile: Rudi and a differently proportioned partner.

[primrose]

I havent read the newspaper article, but clearly this TV programme is for the entertainment of the viewer. Its always a pleasure watching people achieve their dreams, but I get the impression that this programme will be at the expense of the large dancers. Stricktly come dancing is another programme that has the odd contestant for everybody to laugh at. I dont like programmes that are designed to make fun at vulnerable people. The X factor often has contestants that clearly have learning difficulties and I find this so upsetting to see a panel of judges stripping what little self esteem these people have away.

[Jan McNulty]

I agree I don't like when contestants seem to be chosen to stick out like a sore thumb - look at Russell Grant and Lisa Riley who both proved to be talented and entertaining.  And it also had a positive for them too, just caught sight of Russell Grant on This Morning looking very dapper!

[LinMM]

I agree about the X factor exploiting some vulnerable people for entertainment but I now hate the whole programme so much haven't watched it for over two years now!

 

However hopefully the people in Wayne Sleeps programme will not be "vulnerable" people and have some idea of what they may be letting themselves in for!! They will certainly have to be brave as I personally hate most videoing of my own dancing and will now only allow it very occasionally in specific circumstances.....precisely because I haven't chosen on most occasions to be on public view in that way. But at this point in time I do trust that Wayne Sleep....nice person that he is...has his participants welfare at heart......though will he be able to trust the programme makers!! Is this a documentary style programme or some sort of "elimination" style programme...eg as in the choir with Gareth...I would be interested to see it and I suppose the proof of the pudding will be in the eating so to speak.

 

Sorry a rather late response to Evie about her dad....who died at 69 inspite of his healthy lifestyle. Would like to say that if he hadn't had this healthy life style (if there was some genetic component ) he may well have died ten years EARLIER than he did and for every person who lives to a ripe old age with unhealthy lifestyle.....which is that persons choice of course...there are probably ten who don't make it and die prematurely and against their wishes as it were.

[loveclassics]

Always makes me smile: Rudi and a differently proportioned partner.

I remember seeing this the first time it was shown and it still makes me laugh.   I wonder who was in the fat suit though (sorry for un-PC term but it IS in common usage amongst theatrical types).  She was remarkably good and what a story to tell: "I danced with Rudi as a pig!".   Lovely. And Ms Piggy ALWAYS came out on top and had the last word no matter who her co-star was.

 

And as a fellow 'differently proportioned' person I can say hand on heart that the girl done good!

Edited September 20, 2013 by loveclassics

[victoriapage]

Miss Piggy was one Graham Fletcher!

 

wicked magician trichinosis indeed!

Edited September 20, 2013 by victoriapage

[Guest chinafish]

The first episode is going to be on 6th Feb.

 

http://www.channel4.com/info/press/programme-information/big-ballet

[mimi66]

saw this on FB today...http://www.channel4.com/info/press/programme-information/big-ballet

 

I hate the sound of this programme already!  Of course they had to drag some people who have no ballet training. into this programme.. so it is not even about the size any more.

 

I have a nasty feeling that this programme will only reinforces wrong ideas about ballet and dancers...

[Thecatsmother]

All I can say is why? I am not making this as a comment about any individuals featured in the program just why the focus upon weight when adult ballet already open to all body types.

[LinMM]

Perhaps this will be explained in the first programme. It could have been about just adults learning ballet (of any size) to see how they got on in learning repertoire etc......after all there is an ice skating programme which involves elimination each week which is pretty unkind on the contestants just beginning to learn etc!! At last in this once they have been chosen they see it through to the end.

 

So I suppose he must be making a particular point that big people especially are not usually "seen" as ballet material and maybe wants to put that right by demonstrating that they can!!

I haven't picked up......so far......that the programme is purely to make fun of people. I do trust Wayne Sleep more than that. So I hope he doesn't let me down. I'm very interested in the programme anyway but if I think it's going in the wrong direction I shall stop watching it!!

[mimi66]

Well, saw a trailer for this programme on TV....  and it had to feature audition (of course) in the first epithode, of course. Out of 100 or so people (including those with no dance experience), 18 (I think) will be chosen.

 

I just do not see the point this programme is seeking to make.  They say that they wanted to prove that there is no reason why "size" issue should cause people to give up ballet. Well, at least in London adult open classes, dancers of all sizes and abilities have been dancing for about two decades now.

 

Yes, size matters when it comes to professional dancers.  Is this programme challenging that?  Not really.  This is not a programme about those people who underwent professional training in their teens and had to give up ballet because of their size.

 

I mean,why would anyone need to form a "big size" amature ballet company?  For that matter, "size 8" ballet troupe?  If I were to join an amature ballet company, I would not like my dancing to be defined by my size or race or sexual orientation or (fill in the blank).  At least that is how I feel.

Edited January 28, 2014 by mimi66

[LinMM]

I agree very much with your end comments Mimi

However in the Standard tonight there is a comment from Wayne Sleep about the programme in which he says he wants to show that "big" people can do ballet.

He talks about bigger dancers being put at the back of classes when they did ballet as a child which I have no idea is true for that many people or not.

But he then does go on to say that he knows bigger dancers and 'big boned' individuals won't really make it in the Professional world but that doesn't mean they can't dance etc.