Pre-transmission: BBC Panorama documentary - 11/09/2023 at 8pm

[taxi4ballet]

22 hours ago, DancingWellies said:

I haven't posted here in a long time, mainly due to the trauma of lower school. Daughter graduated from a different institution this year and whilst had a much more positive experience in upper school it still left a lot to be desired. I hope Panorama blows the lid off the outdated and down right destructive teaching styles of many of the schools. I hope they don't get the right of reply, one of the key problems is they don't see the issues resulting from their teaching approaches. They need shocking into realising significant change is needed. The evidence is all there, the drop out rates between year 7 & 12, the number who fail to gain a place at upper school despite 5 years of training from the same institution. The number that quit dance completely post graduation. There's always going to be some who don't make it through but it's not a small number. If it was me I'd be asking why so few of the kids we'd trained weren't up to the standard we wanted for upper school, that shows a fundamental failure of the teaching (or initial student selection). They are supposed to be elite training establishments but it seems to be a one size fits all approach, they are supposed to be working with the best dancers of their generation, a more motivational and personalised approach is appropriate. If kids don't make it through in large numbers it's got to be the teaching, not the kids.

 

I have a horrible feeling the Panorama program will concentrate on the stereo typical weight shaming issues which are important but really only a symptom of the much bigger changes needed to resolve the current failings where it's all down to the student and never the fault of the teacher.

 

The annoying thing is there are examples of great motivational teaching out there, from personal experience NYB do a great job of building up the dancers rather than pounding them into the ground.

I have noticed that the usual defence of the school in these situations is a "Well of course the real reason that they didn't succeed / got assessed out / fell by the wayside / suffered mental health problems is because basically they weren't good enough, and all this complaining is sour grapes".

[Pas de Quatre]

Another "excuse" often trotted out is that they can't cope with being a little fish in a big pond, they are too used to being the big fish in a little pond!

[taxi4ballet]

And another 'excuse' often heard from a certain type of teacher: "Well I was trained using these methods, and it never did me any harm".

 

It puts the resilience of children into question, and is basically accusing them of not having sufficient moral fibre to be able to cope with stringent training.

[littledancer99]

It’s so sad there are still teachers like this. Surely we can and should do better to recruit the best most motivational teachers? 
Old attitudes have no place. 
I am utterly sick of the poor excuses given. I’ve worked with children and young people and was extremely careful how I spoke to them. 

I really hope the documentary helps bring about real meaningful changes

or that more people speak out. Reminds me of the whole gymnastics system being under scrutiny 

[Peanut68]

What’s also to note is that some dancers do still succeed despite the best efforts to crush them…& that is in no way vindication of the teachers/institutions who of course will no doubt see it as such & I bet even hold up these success stories as proof their practises work & see it as their own success! 
The ends most certainly do not justify the means…. Even if the ending is a happy one on occasion 

[WhatsThePointe]

On 07/09/2023 at 23:09, DancingWellies said:

 still seems to be you have to be so grateful you got accepted into a vocational school instead of the school realising how lucky they are to work with such talented kids and how big a responsibility it is for the school to get the best out of each of them.

This!!!!! So much this!!!! It's just numbers into the machine and if one leaves, no matter,  another takes their place.

[Out-the-other-side]

20 hours ago, littledancer99 said:

It’s so sad there are still teachers like this. Surely we can and should do better to recruit the best most motivational teachers? 
Old attitudes have no place. 
I am utterly sick of the poor excuses given. I’ve worked with children and young people and was extremely careful how I spoke to them. 

I really hope the documentary helps bring about real meaningful changes

or that more people speak out. Reminds me of the whole gymnastics system being under scrutiny 

There are still teachers like this because the schools in question prioritise protecting their brand rather than the young people in their care. When concerns are raised and investigations take place, these people are allowed simply to quietly leave to teach elsewhere. 

[DreamChaser]

These terrible stories are nothing new, the Ballet community has been aware of what the BBC will reveal (and far worse) for many many years and yet parents still keep putting their children in arms way and these so-called elite institutions keep receiving the precious funding.  It’s time that parents also woke up!

 

How many posts do we all see on his forum each day from parents desperate secure that elite place?!? Yet choosing to be blinkered to the truth of these institutions?  
 

We kept our DD at home until 16,  she has received high quality, supportive training, attended mainstream school and has grown into a beautiful, confident dancer, and an individual who knows who she is as an dancer and a person.  She’s now started 1st year Rambert but was also accepted by RCS and ENBS to name a few - we did not even apply to RBS, Elmhurst and a few others for the reasons that the BBC will uncover on Monday.

 

I guess my point is, and I’ve made it in previous posts, these schools are not the be all or end all and we should really wake up and stop treating them this way as we simply add legitimacy to their god awful practices IMO.

 

 

[Jamiel Devernay-Laurence]

As a product of 4 major dance institutions (and one music!) I would point out that as someone who is now guest teaching/making new creative work at these schools, they are simply unrecognisable from the places I knew as a student.

 

I am not saying whether for better or worse, as I wouldn't know what the new experience this decade is all about - but what I would say is that these are now institutions that are funded differently, focused differently and have a completely new set of teacher to those I knew as recently as the late 2000's.

[Bellaboo]

On 06/09/2023 at 12:53, oncnp said:

 

I wonder if the BBC will allow RBS and Elmhurst to defend themselves.  

Maybe they need to face up to what actually goes on in their schools and stop hiding things. Things to this day remain outdated and unacceptable. Unfortunately we have first hand expert of this. 

[Pointytoes]

3 hours ago, Jamiel Devernay-Laurence said:

As a product of 4 major dance institutions (and one music!) I would point out that as someone who is now guest teaching/making new creative work at these schools, they are simply unrecognisable from the places I knew as a student.

 

I am not saying whether for better or worse, as I wouldn't know what the new experience this decade is all about - but what I would say is that these are now institutions that are funded differently, focused differently and have a completely new set of teacher to those I knew as recently as the late 2000's.

This may be true, but yet the underlying toxic culture still exists has not changed at all. 
The overhaul of these institutions must be threefold. 
The culture that has always existed, the artistic outcomes for young people and the value of the parents investment in what is supposed to be an education as well. 
Is the taxpayer getting value for money?
I fear that a documentary won’t even begin to unravel the real problems at these top ballet brands. That would take a series of documentaries.

 I very much agree with an above post, whilst parents continue to see certain brands as the be end and all end, a veil of protection around the deep issues within their walls will continue. 
The question panorama and all parents should be asking, are these so called ballet schools in the UK really fit for purpose? I speak from personal experience on both so called top afore mentioned institutions! 

Edited September 9, 2023 by Pointytoes

[Peanut68]

I’ve long been saying (documented in this forum too) that there needs to be an audit of these schools - starting with those receiving funding through MDS & DaDa.

There seems to be very little or no outside independent scrutiny with the schools pretty much writing their own rules & being autocratic & - dare I say? - in some cases power crazed. All just my opinion from our first hand experience. (And this includes 3 of the major schools over 2 generations)

Edited September 9, 2023 by Peanut68

[Pointytoes]

5 hours ago, WhatsThePointe said:

This!!!!! So much this!!!! It's just numbers into the machine and if one leaves, no matter,  another takes their place.

 

4 hours ago, Out-the-other-side said:

There are still teachers like this because the schools in question prioritise protecting their brand rather than the young people in their care. When concerns are raised and investigations take place, these people are allowed simply to quietly leave to teach elsewhere. 

Absolutely, accountability among ballet staff simply does not exist! 

[WendyC74]

It's crucial that we address the issue of these prestigious ballet schools receiving substantial government funding, including through the MDS scheme and Department for Education grants. This funding is intended to elevate the standard of ballet education in the UK for British students.

A ballet school, especially one receiving substantial government funding and given charity status, should prioritise the development and well-being of its own aspiring British talent, rather than inadvertently harming it.

If there are allegations of practices within these schools that may harm the prospects of British talent, such as body shaming and bullying, it's imperative that these concerns are thoroughly investigated. It's not about assigning blame prematurely, but rather about holding these institutions accountable for their actions and ensuring they uphold their responsibilities.

It's disheartening to see these allegations suggesting that instead of nurturing local talent, some schools may resort to favouring talent from outside the UK to replace what they couldn't foster, which raises serious questions about the purpose and responsibility of these institutions

The schools should take these allegations seriously and engage in a transparent dialogue to address these issues and maintain the integrity of the support they receive from taxpayers.

[LinMM]

Although agree with much of what is being said here I can foresee a sort of problem which certainly does need highlighting and discussing as seems like a sort of impasse. 
Students who often comprise “ the talent from outside the UK” seem to be the ones often desired by Ballet Companies. However some of the training practices of these students would be something not really generally approved of in the UK….in terms of hours spent practising and in teaching sessions and performing and over trained in repetitive Pieces for Ballet Competitions etc. 

The students in the top ballet schools here don’t get this type of experience…so obviously will develop later. 
Is this the dilemma facing the more Senior aspects of the British schools of who will be ready for Companies at 18 as British students are not “hothoused” in the way some students from abroad are. 
There seems already to be complaints of how students are treated in British schools though …and surely there is a way of developing talent in an encouraging and creative way with teachers and students on the same side…..but maybe a more natural way of training just takes longer. 
So this is the “impasse” I can see…and why foreign trained students (many of whose training might not be ideal but produces results earlier) can be preferred at 18 when Companies are recruiting because they are more Company ready? 


 

 

 

[Dancing unicorn]

22 hours ago, WendyC74 said:

It's crucial that we address the issue of these prestigious ballet schools receiving substantial government funding, including through the MDS scheme and Department for Education grants. This funding is intended to elevate the standard of ballet education in the UK for British students.

A ballet school, especially one receiving substantial government funding and given charity status, should prioritise the development and well-being of its own aspiring British talent, rather than inadvertently harming it.

If there are allegations of practices within these schools that may harm the prospects of British talent, such as body shaming and bullying, it's imperative that these concerns are thoroughly investigated. It's not about assigning blame prematurely, but rather about holding these institutions accountable for their actions and ensuring they uphold their responsibilities.

It's disheartening to see these allegations suggesting that instead of nurturing local talent, some schools may resort to favouring talent from outside the UK to replace what they couldn't foster, which raises serious questions about the purpose and responsibility of these institutions

The schools should take these allegations seriously and engage in a transparent dialogue to address these issues and maintain the integrity of the support they receive from taxpayers.

👍👏🥹

[BalletcoForum Moderators]

We have hidden a post above whilst it's under discussion by the Moderators.  Two subsequent posts that referred to it have also been hidden for now.  

[Pointytoes]

The removal of the posts above are exactly why the veil of protection around these schools persists. The lack of openness and accountability continues to be protected even by this kind of action from moderators! 
The post above absolutely hit the nail on the head and was articulately and truthfully written. A great shame.
 

[BalletcoForum Moderators]

A number of posts have been hidden due to the nature of some of the posts.

 

 

On 01/09/2023 at 10:47, BalletcoForum Moderators said:

 

Hello everyone.  We have been approached with regard to the upcoming Panorama programme, and whether it can be discussed here.  The answer is yes it can, but we respectfully ask members to refrain from commenting/speculating until the programme has been aired.  The moderators will then monitor comments to ensure that there is nothing potentially libellous being written.  Anything that has been said or pointed out on Panorama can be discussed as it would already be in the public domain.  But we would like to reiterate that our AUP still applies, so please....no second-hand news ('someone told me that .... ') nor any information about someone or an institution that is not out there or quoted in the public domain, nor highly critical postings under pseudonyms.  This will no doubt be an interesting and emotive programme, but please remember that anything said here is available for public consumption.  Thanks for your co-operation.

 

[Sim]

16 hours ago, Pointytoes said:

The removal of the posts above are exactly why the veil of protection around these schools persists. The lack of openness and accountability continues to be protected even by this kind of action from moderators! 
The post above absolutely hit the nail on the head and was articulately and truthfully written. A great shame.
 

Excuse me, but the reason the first post was hidden was because a member reported the use of a certain word in the post.  It was absolutely nothing to do with what was said about the schools.  As is explained elsewhere on this forum, each time a member reports a post, we hide it whilst it is under discussion by the Mods.  If we agree with the report, the post stays hidden and we contact the poster to tell them why.  This might take a day or two as we all have lives and jobs.  If we disagree with the report we unhide the post.  Or, with the agreement of the poster, we make changes, as is the case above.  The agreed changes having been made, we have now unlocked the thread and made the relevant posts visible again.  Furthermore, I have said numerous times that we don't hide posts lightly, nor do we like doing so, but when we do hide them it's because a member has reported them, or a moderator thinks it breaches our AUP.  When a post is hidden, any subsequent posts that refer to it are also hidden because either the reference wouldn't make sense or if the post has been quoted it would still be visible.  Rest assured that we aren't performing mass repression.  I have also said many times that in these litigious times when people get so easily offended many things that used to be considered as fair game aren't anymore.  We therefore have to be very careful about what we can allow to be said on here about individuals or institutions.  We used to be more lax but have almost come a cropper a couple of times in the past so we have learned our lesson.  May I also repeat that if any kind of action were to be taken against the forum, it is we, the Moderators who would have to bear the responsibility and the financial and legal brunt of any such action, not the members.  

 

As Chair of the Forum Committee, I want to make very clear that we do our best to remain neutral (and believe me, it's not always easy) and would never, ever, hide posts just to protect a school, whether consciously or not.  To accuse us of such is, to quote you, a great shame.  Perhaps next time you could wait until you know the actual reason for a post being hidden prior to accusing us of something that is untrue.  The Moderators work hard 365 days a year to run and maintain this forum.  We are volunteers, and have all been doing this for almost 12 years of our lives.  We often take a lot of flak and we accept that that is part of the remit.  However, I have posted these words because we won't take flak for something that is not true.

 

[alison]

In the hopes of reducing confusion, this thread has been split into two: this one contains discussion prior to the programme being broadcast.

 

Discussion of the broadcast programme can be found here:

 

[Ondine]

I've 'bumped' the 2021 thread about White Lodge and the LADO and Met Police investigation (which came to the conclusion that basically, nothing was wrong) back up the forum, in order to further draw it and the posts to the attention of forum members, who no doubt have their own views on the matter.  I'd suggest discussion on the issues remain on this thread to avoid confusion.

 

 

 

 

 

[Lindsay]

23 minutes ago, Ondine said:

 

I've 'bumped' the 2021 thread about White Lodge and the LADO and Met Police investigation (which came to the conclusion that basically, nothing was wrong)

 

With respect Ondine we do not know this is what was concluded.  It is possible that they just did not have sufficient evidence at the time to act on.

[Ondine]

Yes. Sorry I have phrased that badly.  Thank you.

[Ondine]

1 hour ago, Ondine said:

I've 'bumped' the 2021 thread about White Lodge and the LADO and Met Police investigation (which came to the conclusion that basically, nothing was wrong) back up the forum, in order to further draw it and the posts to the attention of forum members, who no doubt have their own views on the matter.  I'd suggest discussion on the issues remain on this thread to avoid confusion.

 

 

I'm not having the best of days. Doh.

 

I meant to suggest discussion carries on on the post Panorama thread to avoid confusion.