Pre-transmission: BBC Panorama documentary - 11/09/2023 at 8pm

[Lifeafterballet]

[taxi4ballet]

Crikey. I think I might have to watch that then.

[Farawaydancer]

Oh I heard rumours this was on the way! It’ll be interesting to see what comes from it. 

[Peanut68]

Was only a matter of time….

And a few brave souls willing to break the shameful silence that this ballet training world sadly still seems to hold trainee dancers/parents in….

My overwhelming personal experience as a parent is hearing of an influential ‘teacher’ almost holding themselves up as the route to success with phrases to students & to parents along lines of:-

‘I can make you’

This seemed to be a phrase proffered to very many students/parents. But alongside that I heard loud and clear a very insidious (& expressed) subtext of ‘I can also break you’ 

 

 

[capybara]

18 hours ago, Peanut68 said:

Was only a matter of time….

And a few brave souls willing to break the shameful silence that this ballet training world sadly still seems to hold trainee dancers/parents in….

My overwhelming personal experience as a parent is hearing of an influential ‘teacher’ almost holding themselves up as the route to success with phrases to students & to parents along lines of:-

‘I can make you’

This seemed to be a phrase proffered to very many students/parents. But alongside that I heard loud and clear a very insidious (& expressed) subtext of ‘I can also break you’ 

This is very upsetting to hear.

So sorry that you, your dancing offspring, and doubtless many others have been subjected to such unacceptable ‘teacher’ behaviour.

[BalletcoForum Moderators]

 

Hello everyone.  We have been approached with regard to the upcoming Panorama programme, and whether it can be discussed here.  The answer is yes it can, but we respectfully ask members to refrain from commenting/speculating until the programme has been aired.  The moderators will then monitor comments to ensure that there is nothing potentially libellous being written.  Anything that has been said or pointed out on Panorama can be discussed as it would already be in the public domain.  But we would like to reiterate that our AUP still applies, so please....no second-hand news ('someone told me that .... ') nor any information about someone or an institution that is not out there or quoted in the public domain, nor highly critical postings under pseudonyms.  This will no doubt be an interesting and emotive programme, but please remember that anything said here is available for public consumption.  Thanks for your co-operation.

[Emeralds]

I’ll be catching it on iPlayer as I can’t do so on Monday 11th. Short programme but looks like much food for thought there.

[LinMM]

I can’t find any real info of what’s in this programme!! 

[Guest oncnp]

5 minutes ago, LinMM said:

I can’t find any real info of what’s in this programme!! 

They may still be putting it together

[alison]

From my experience of Panorama, I wouldn't be at all surprised if that is the case.

[Drdee]

I can say that the journalist leading this programme approached me through my capacity on the Safer Dance (Dance School Safeguarding Working Group). I do not think it will focus on one particular school it will depend on who they have interviewed. Points that came up in my conversation with the journalist was around teaching methods and approaches, mental health and well-being and outdated, and contradictory dietary advice. There is also going to be something on Radio 4 soonish that may focus much more on one particular school. I don’t think this is a witch hunt per se but there is much to unpack which warrants discussion. This generation of young dancers are much more vocal and will not tolerate some of the outdated conventions/practices. They are part of the solution so let’s hope they get a platform to have a voice. Having said that I hope it is a balanced argument.

[alison]

It should perhaps be pointed out that the BBC has a habit of postponing individual panorama programmes if something deemed more important/timely crops up. So the date might change.

[Out-the-other-side]

17 hours ago, Drdee said:

I can say that the journalist leading this programme approached me through my capacity on the Safer Dance (Dance School Safeguarding Working Group). I do not think it will focus on one particular school it will depend on who they have interviewed. Points that came up in my conversation with the journalist was around teaching methods and approaches, mental health and well-being and outdated, and contradictory dietary advice. There is also going to be something on Radio 4 soonish that may focus much more on one particular school. I don’t think this is a witch hunt per se but there is much to unpack which warrants discussion. This generation of young dancers are much more vocal and will not tolerate some of the outdated conventions/practices. They are part of the solution so let’s hope they get a platform to have a voice. Having said that I hope it is a balanced argument.

There is at least one member of Safer Dance with vast experience of supporting dancers struggling with issues that are raised in this programme. I do hope they had some input into this programme also. (Assuming it is not you - apologies if it is but not sure if I can name names here) 

Edited September 2, 2023 by Out-the-other-side
Typo

[Drdee]

1 hour ago, Out-the-other-side said:

There is at least one member of Safer Dance with vast experience of supporting dancers struggling with issues that are raised in this programme. I do hope they had some input into this programme also. (Assuming it is not you - apologies if it is but not sure if I can name names here) 

I am not in the programme but I am sure there will be others from Safer Dance involved. It really is a very good bunch of committed professionals. Look forward to seeing the programme.

[Lifeafterballet]

[Guest oncnp]

8 minutes ago, Lifeafterballet said:

 

I wonder if the BBC will allow RBS and Elmhurst to defend themselves.  

[Out-the-other-side]

4 hours ago, oncnp said:

 

I wonder if the BBC will allow RBS and Elmhurst to defend themselves.  

I hope if they are given a voice in the programme they will use it to apologise to the students affected. 

[Guest oncnp]

4 minutes ago, Out-the-other-side said:

I hope if they are given a voice in the programme they will use it to apologise to the students affected. 

While I do not doubt the horror stories told on this forum, there are two sides to every story and I'd like to hear the other one

Edited September 6, 2023 by oncnp

[taxi4ballet]

4 hours ago, oncnp said:

 

I wonder if the BBC will allow RBS and Elmhurst to defend themselves.  

It may or may not turn out to be indefensible. We need to wait and see what is said in the programme first.

[Peanut68]

I do hope that it is made clear that these are by no means the only 2 institutions in this field that a) offer elite training & b) have potentially adversely damaged young people. 
 

It will I’m sure be a tip of the iceberg that we see highlighted. And of course there is the good, the bad & the ugly (as well as downright immoral & possibly illegal) happenings across many training establishments from the very basic grassroots entry point to elite. And I do hope that we can occasionally find good out there to give a hoorah to in this ballet training world! My personal experience does have such an extreme mix of individuals ranging from exceptional to dastardly! It is as ever the bad minority who can so often can ruin things for the rest. 
It will I’m sure be an interesting watch…

[Neverdancedjustamum]

9 hours ago, Peanut68 said:

I do hope that it is made clear that these are by no means the only 2 institutions in this field that a) offer elite training & b) have potentially adversely damaged young people. 
 

It will I’m sure be a tip of the iceberg that we see highlighted. And of course there is the good, the bad & the ugly (as well as downright immoral & possibly illegal) happenings across many training establishments from the very basic grassroots entry point to elite. And I do hope that we can occasionally find good out there to give a hoorah to in this ballet training world! My personal experience does have such an extreme mix of individuals ranging from exceptional to dastardly! It is as ever the bad minority who can so often can ruin things for the rest. 
It will I’m sure be an interesting watch…

Sadly, although perhaps understandably, the ‘bigger’ the name and reputation, the bigger the responsibility and accountability in the public eye it seems because a lot of people’s eyes are on you. Elsewhere in the educational world (not vocational training), my experience is that before we say, write and do anything, we often do an internal test that has become second nature over the years: not only “is this right?” but also, “If this was in the public domain, would it be considered reasonable, just and sensible?” (what we used to half-jokingly call ‘The Daily Mail’ test as in “Would this land us in the Daily Mail?”). It’s likely that the issues raised in this programme also exist elsewhere, in other schools, but I guess they picked those they deemed to be the most recognisable names in the country. What happens in these schools are always highlighted and discussed. It comes with the big name and reputation.

[Peanut68]

Good points…

 

I think there’s another test:- would this make content in ‘The Sun’ & similar newsfeeds?

Oh boy…. So much distasteful & sensationalist stuff out there in the dance world I fear! 
 

to add….

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001q69s

 

Maybe this item will be a good listen & shine a light onto a gentler time? Or not of course! I suspect there are many horror stories from the birth of British Ballet days - as with most things in the early 20th century when looked at with 21st Century sensitivities & expectations! 

Edited September 7, 2023 by Peanut68

[Peanut68]

Oh how joyous a listen was that? 😍

Suspect I’m in for a more challenging watch on Monday….

[alison]

I fully expect it to be displaced by a programme on Raac!

[taxi4ballet]

40 minutes ago, alison said:

I fully expect it to be displaced by a programme on Raac!

That will probably be a Question Time Special...

[Anna C]

On 06/09/2023 at 12:53, oncnp said:

 

I wonder if the BBC will allow RBS and Elmhurst to defend themselves.  

I am certain the schools will have been approached for comment.  Whether they do, of course, is up to them.

[Anna C]

23 hours ago, oncnp said:

While I do not doubt the horror stories told on this forum, there are two sides to every story and I'd like to hear the other one

I agree there are two sides to *many* stories, but not actually to *every* story.  I’m not saying that’s the case here, of course, but sometimes there’s only one side - the victim’s side.

[DancingWellies]

I haven't posted here in a long time, mainly due to the trauma of lower school. Daughter graduated from a different institution this year and whilst had a much more positive experience in upper school it still left a lot to be desired. I hope Panorama blows the lid off the outdated and down right destructive teaching styles of many of the schools. I hope they don't get the right of reply, one of the key problems is they don't see the issues resulting from their teaching approaches. They need shocking into realising significant change is needed. The evidence is all there, the drop out rates between year 7 & 12, the number who fail to gain a place at upper school despite 5 years of training from the same institution. The number that quit dance completely post graduation. There's always going to be some who don't make it through but it's not a small number. If it was me I'd be asking why so few of the kids we'd trained weren't up to the standard we wanted for upper school, that shows a fundamental failure of the teaching (or initial student selection). They are supposed to be elite training establishments but it seems to be a one size fits all approach, they are supposed to be working with the best dancers of their generation, a more motivational and personalised approach is appropriate. If kids don't make it through in large numbers it's got to be the teaching, not the kids.

 

I have a horrible feeling the Panorama program will concentrate on the stereo typical weight shaming issues which are important but really only a symptom of the much bigger changes needed to resolve the current failings where it's all down to the student and never the fault of the teacher.

 

The annoying thing is there are examples of great motivational teaching out there, from personal experience NYB do a great job of building up the dancers rather than pounding them into the ground.

[alison]

Trouble is, they only have half an hour.  I doubt it'll be that wide-ranging.

[Kerfuffle]

Are the kids at either WL or Elmhurst shamed for their weight? Do they have weight charts like in Russia? Or is it more the manner of the teachers and the extremely high amounts of assessing out at WL in particular? I wonder if it’s only lower schools. 

[DancingWellies]

I asked the same question this evening and got told emphatically it still happens, DD was at Elmhurst. Also continued into upper school, different school.

[Kerfuffle]

Which one or do you prefer not to say ? (Which is ok I understand). 

[DancingWellies]

I'd rather not say as it would make her fairly identifiable I think. It's a small world and she's made loads of contacts across the dance world in the UK, suffice to say we have direct experience of 2 schools, she has friends across most of those others and they do talk not to mention meet up from time in auditions, summer schools etc. It is a small world.

 

Anyway I'm incredibly proud of her, she's come out of a system that nearly broke her, as a very strong person, many others didn't. I'd rather she'd got to where she is now through example, support and motivational training rather than battling the odds and system. The really sad thing is I don't think the teachers even realise how they impact the kids which is why I'd welcome the lid being blown off the whole thing. You would have thought Ballet West might have been the turning point but it wasn't. Id like to think Panorama might be the trigger but I don't hold out much hope.

 

We have such great potential dancers in this country and fantastic grass roots schools. Even the facilities available in the vocational schools are excellent, we just don't have the right teaching mentality. It still seems to be you have to be so grateful you got accepted into a vocational school instead of the school realising how lucky they are to work with such talented kids and how big a responsibility it is for the school to get the best out of each of them.