LinMM Posted July 18, 2023 Share Posted July 18, 2023 Just a thought though….I wonder how many young swimmers who put in the hours go on to compete at the big competitions. I imagine in all of these activities demanding such dedication have quite a drop out rate in the end often through injury or burn out. In the end all the “hot housing” does not necessarily lead to long term success in a particular field and may even lead to losing some very talented youngsters whether swimming gymnastics or ballet etc. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiz Posted July 18, 2023 Share Posted July 18, 2023 A friend’s daughter who embarked on this route is now a beautician. A neighbour’s grandchild is in the swimming pool at 4.00 every morning and again most evenings. She’s fourteen. Whether she will do anything with it remains to be seen. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neverdancedjustamum Posted July 18, 2023 Share Posted July 18, 2023 Most of DD’s close friends are not dancers (very few in her school know she dances!) but are involved in various sports at quite high and elite levels. During regular catch up and chats with their mums, I would say from my experience that despite the long hours and early starts, these sports give a slightly more ‘even field’ when it comes to providing access and opportunities in relation to finances and expenses (ie how much a family can afford). As long as the kids are determined and love what they do, and the parents are willing to put in the time and support, I think the financial output is nowhere near as high-expense as ‘hot housing’ young dancers. My sport mum friends are horrified at how expensive it can be in the dance world and when they hear about how much private lessons/studio hire/intensives/Pilates/associates etc etc all add up to. These sports don’t involve as much 121/private type coaching with hourly fees. Most of their additional expense only involve transport/travel. I also find they don’t miss as many of the social teenage things that happen during the weekends or after school. Would these kids that I know end up to be professional athletes? I suspect very few will if any but even at a young age they are very aware that most of them won’t end up doing it for a living. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glowlight Posted July 18, 2023 Share Posted July 18, 2023 I think there are two things which keep sports cheaper for parents: 1. Many grass roots sports clubs depend heavily on volunteer coaches. We tend to pay professional dance teachers to train our young dancers. 2. It is my impression that a lot of government funding goes into training athletes on the Elite path, especially targeted towards getting medals at the olympics for example. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harwel Posted July 18, 2023 Share Posted July 18, 2023 Just to say, I am very pleased to see Scarlett Harvey - graduate of US RB last year (British trained - Elmhurst for 3 years. WL for 2, US RB for 3) was a scholar into RB last year has been promoted to artist this year. Fantastic achievement for her. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ondine Posted July 18, 2023 Share Posted July 18, 2023 30 minutes ago, Harwel said: Just to say, I am very pleased to see Scarlett Harvey - graduate of US RB last year (British trained - Elmhurst for 3 years. WL for 2, US RB for 3) was a scholar into RB last year has been promoted to artist this year. Fantastic achievement for her. Yes, very good news, another who got in to WL 'late' via the YAGP! https://www.balletnews.co.uk/from-student-to-star-scarlett-harvey-the-royal-ballet/ BTW I'm not saying I agree with the hothousing and untold hours approach, also of course parental deep pockets required, it's just it's a fact of current ballet life that it's happening. Some who are taking the slow and steady approach may well be being left behind despite undoubted talent. I've still not found anything about what happened to Evie Ball, see earlier posts, yet at one point presumably the RBS put her forward as a rising star to be interviewed. Once out of the 'system' it's very hard to get back in. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ondine Posted July 18, 2023 Share Posted July 18, 2023 (edited) Can't now add to the above but the new bio on the ROH site (finally!) has further details. BIOGRAPHY British dancer Scarlett Harvey joined The Royal Ballet as an Aud Jebsen Young Dancer at the start of the 2022/23 Season. Scarlett is from Cleethorpes in the North East of England and began her ballet training aged two. Her training began at Lesley Swaby Dance Centre in her hometown before she moved on to the Northern Ballet Centre for Advanced Training and The Royal Ballet School Junior Associate Programme. She joined The Royal Ballet School at White Lodge in 2017. During her time at the School, she won the April Olrich Award for dynamic performance and the 2nd Year Artistic Prize for progress and endeavour. She graduated from The Royal Ballet School in 2022. Edited July 18, 2023 by Ondine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissEmily Posted July 18, 2023 Share Posted July 18, 2023 Cheeky in the extreme that her three years at Elmhurst aren’t mentioned! 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lifeafterballet Posted July 18, 2023 Share Posted July 18, 2023 9 minutes ago, MissEmily said: Cheeky in the extreme that her three years at Elmhurst aren’t mentioned! Never is 🤣 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ondine Posted July 18, 2023 Share Posted July 18, 2023 Quite. There's a great deal not mentioned! From an old fundraising appeal: Thanks for taking the time to visit my JustGiving page. Scarlett has danced since the age of 2. She danced locally with Swaby Dance Centre and became a Junior Associate with The Royal Ballet and Northern Ballet in Leeds. At 11 she gained a scholarship to full time vocational school Elmhurst in Birmingham. Since then Scarlett has danced for Chantry Dance Company and The National Youth Ballet at Buckingham Palace. In November 2016, Scarlett competed in the Youth America Grand Prix in Paris. She placed in the top 12 in Europe and is the only British Dancer to qualify to dance in the Finals in New York. She also won a scholarship to Paris Opera, Royal Ballet and American Ballet Theatre Summer Intensives 2017. https://www.justgiving.com/fundraising/getscarletttonewyork?amount=100¤cy=GBP&alertType=error&alertMessage=donationError Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harwel Posted July 18, 2023 Share Posted July 18, 2023 (edited) Also very interesting that she auditioned every year for WL but only got in through the YAGP. Clearly not through lack of talent, potential or physical attributes. Edited July 18, 2023 by Harwel 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ondine Posted July 18, 2023 Share Posted July 18, 2023 I'm an old cynic... offered a place before she went to US for the YAGP finals and possibly won something and questions asked about why she wasn't already at WL? 😏 Whatever the journey, it's great she's got a place in the company through hard work and talent and wish her well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harwel Posted July 19, 2023 Share Posted July 19, 2023 8 hours ago, Ondine said: I'm an old cynic... offered a place before she went to US for the YAGP finals and possibly won something and questions asked about why she wasn't already at WL? 😏 Whatever the journey, it's great she's got a place in the company through hard work and talent and wish her well. Totally agree. She has been incredibly determined and knew how to get to her end goal - that is a special talent all in itself. It will be lovely to watch her journey and wish her all the very best for a happy career - wherever it may take her. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ballet_novice Posted July 20, 2023 Share Posted July 20, 2023 On 17/07/2023 at 21:30, Pointytoes said: Totally agree with the above statent. However, the real problem begins earlier and what must be looked at is the quality of training in the lower school. Female students are unable to reach the levels needed to compete with students who are hot housed and are trained extensively and often privately for competitions. A class a day at the bar simply does not cut it. Absolutely, make this school an international one, bring in the best but train those young students who begin in year 7 and have been talent identified by the AD to the standards required. Please do not have parents buy into the English De Valois dream, it is dead. Remove the patronage if it is now an international Academy lead by an AD who serves as a talent scout globally. But please do not pass these students off statistically as being ‘ Royal Ballet trained’. There are many amazing international dancers. This is not about race or ethnicity, it is about what the purpose is of RB lower school is and the quality of training it provides especially for the young students it takes in.This is an issue that cannot be ignored. Have you ever considered that perhaps the students that appeared to be ballet material in year 7 …over the years it turns out actually were not all as such? It is not only training. Several students leave WL because they loose interest in ballets, or develop physical conditions that are not compatible with ballet, or simply don’t have anymore the inclination and dedication needed for ballet any longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DVDfan Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 7 hours ago, Ballet_novice said: Have you ever considered that perhaps the students that appeared to be ballet material in year 7 …over the years it turns out actually were not all as such? It is not only training. Several students leave WL because they loose interest in ballets, or develop physical conditions that are not compatible with ballet, or simply don’t have anymore the inclination and dedication needed for ballet any longer. This is of course true, but if it applied to all the students who are not offered places in years 10 and 12, (which I doubt since so many of them go on to other vocational schools and do well), it would indicate that vocational training starts too young. My concern here is as a tax payer - I have no connection with the dance world except as an audience member. And I am feeling that if my taxes are supporting a vocational ballet school I want it spent training the most talented British children to the standard that will get them into paying work. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pas de Quatre Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 So it appears the wrong children are being chosen and then they are not taught or inspired sufficiently! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neverdancedjustamum Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 I fear this discussion might go the way other RBS-related threads have gone and be locked. However, I did wonder if RBS could maybe publish, the same way they do graduate destinations of their pre-professional students, destinations of their White Lodge graduates. After all, don’t they insist that years 7-9, years 10-11, 1st-2nd years upper and third year upper are all distinct, separate stages? Unless they already do this? Perhaps a bit more transparency like this would benefit the school, as well as assuage concerns of parents. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lifeafterballet Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 50 minutes ago, Pas de Quatre said: So it appears the wrong children are being chosen and then they are not taught or inspired sufficiently! I don’t think they are the wrong children, they are just too young for the schools to assess whether they have the natural facility for a career in classical ballet. It’s a rare thing and if you haven’t got it and try to force it you will hurt the child physically and mentally. We have personal experience of this. There are so many changes from 11 to 16, physically, mentally and emotionally that it doesn’t surprise me just how few continue to upper school. I am not going to be very popular here…. but maybe assessing out wasn’t a bad thing. It’s upsetting but if it’s in the best interest of the child then it’s necessary. Our daughter hurt herself physically and mentally to stay in her school and continue her ballet training. She knew exactly what she was doing, but not the long term implications of it. Round peg, square hole. A [ short ] career in ballet is not worth that. 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LinMM Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 I agree. It’s a bit like assessing children at age 11 for academic studies ( some will remember the old “11 plus exam” ) This forced children into different types of schools at too young an age. We were lucky in the County I lived in as a child as there was always good transfer between Grammar and Secondary Modern schools even before Comprehensive education came in and there was always quite a drop out from Grammar schools when you could leave school at 15 thus opening up lots of sixth form places to children who developed a bit later academically. Unfortunately other children living elsewhere were not so lucky. So I think it is difficult to predict at age 11 who will turn out to be suitable for ballet in 7 or 8 years time. One would always hope all those admitted at 11 to RBS ( and similar) are going to go all the way of course but I can’t help feeling Life isn’t always so straight forward. I think if children are assessed out earlier ….say at 13 ….this should not prevent them being assessed back in again later on if things change again!! Where ballet is concerned it’s a very long time between 11 and 18. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pas de Quatre Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 This all seems to assume that if anyone leaves WL it is because they are assessed out. A pupil of a teacher friend did not like it there and left by choice, returning home. They then went to one of the major European schools post GCSEs and have now graduated into the company. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bangorballetboy Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 47 minutes ago, LinMM said: I agree. It’s a bit like assessing children at age 11 for academic studies ( some will remember the old “11 plus exam” ) This forced children into different types of schools at too young an age. I did the 11 plus. I note there were reviews at the end of each of the first three years on secondary education that allowed children to move into the grammar stream. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ondine Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 (edited) 11 minutes ago, bangorballetboy said: allowed children to move into the grammar stream. Where (yes there are always exceptions) they were usually far behind those in the grammar school (languages, sciences and the rest) and found it difficult to catch up and make new friends. And in reality there was very little movement. Once in that pigeonhole, that was that. Yes some people went on later to gain qualifications and shine but reality was for far too many they got an impoverished education. Some children considered themselves failures at eleven and it affected them for life. It was a rotten system IMO. Don't shoot the messenger. As you were. Edited July 21, 2023 by Ondine 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neverdancedjustamum Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 Both my DCs took the 11+. I think our county is the only one (or 1 of 2) left in the country where year 6 students, as default, sit the 11+ unless the parent opts their DC out of sitting it. I believe in other counties students have to opt in or register to take the 11+. The 11+ therefore is still a massive thing here, to the detriment of the remaining comprehensive schools. From my personal experience of two grammar schools, the support not just to get students through all 5 years but to attain excellent GCSE results, is exceptional. Students who need additional help in certain subjects are identified early on and given additional classes and lessons. There are regular assessments and reports through the year. Nothing comes as a surprise. The drop out rate within those 5 years, as far as I can tell, is minute if any. No one as far as I know has been assessed out based on academic performance. Some (very few) opt to leave because the grammar school system isn’t for them and end up achieving better in comprehensive school. These schools exert tremendous effort to keep their students in for entry into their respective sixth forms. I think the main difference is that for the most part, to stay in grammar schools, most factors are within the students’ control (work harder, study more). They are not assessed on physique or facility or shape of foot, elements of which are sometimes not within the child’s control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bangorballetboy Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 13 minutes ago, Ondine said: Where (yes there are always exceptions) they were usually far behind those in the grammar school (languages, sciences and the rest) and found it difficult to catch up and make new friends. And in reality there was very little movement. Once in that pigeonhole, that was that. To be honest, whilst there were only a handful of people who "came up" each year, your description of these students does not reflect my experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LinMM Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 Yes BBB ….some did have good transfer into Grammar schools at 13 plus and then after O levels ….but not in all Counties in U.K. had this …. or certainly not in 1950’s when I did the 11 plus. I failed it but then got into Grammar school at 15 as took most of my then “O levels” a year early ….so things do change!! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiz Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 A fair number of girls were transferred to my grammar school at thirteen. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Macmillan Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 A Scottish perspective from way back in the early 1950s. The 'Qualifying exam' sorted sheep from goats as regards secondary education and I can't recall hearing of any subsequent changes to that round our way. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest oncnp Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 Sort of related.... Daria Klimentova has announced on IG she is leaving the RBS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ondine Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 10 minutes ago, oncnp said: Daria Klimentova has announced on IG she is leaving the RBS A surprise. Possibly spreading her teaching wings wider? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capybara Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 47 minutes ago, oncnp said: Sort of related.... Daria Klimentova has announced on IG she is leaving the RBS The RBS announced this on social media as well, naming the 4 new teachers (Sarah Kundi and Stuart Cassidy for the US and Larissa Bamber and James Butcher at White Lodge) and thanking the departing ones (Daria Klimentove, Kenta Kura and Zhanat Atymtayev). Stuart, Larissa and James are RBS alumni. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ondine Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 More here: https://www.royalballetschool.org.uk/2023/07/19/the-royal-ballet-school-welcomes-four-new-artistic-staff/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millicent Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 But students at WL are assessed in Feb of Y9. That means they've only had 2 years and 5 months at the school. To put the attrition rate down to not being able to properly assess talent in Y7 suggests that it becomes highly apparent between the age of 11 and 13. Assessing out at other vocational schools is very very rare compared to WL. I think most now more or less guarantee a place up to Y11. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ballet_novice Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 14 hours ago, DVDfan said: This is of course true, but if it applied to all the students who are not offered places in years 10 and 12, (which I doubt since so many of them go on to other vocational schools and do well), it would indicate that vocational training starts too young. My concern here is as a tax payer - I have no connection with the dance world except as an audience member. And I am feeling that if my taxes are supporting a vocational ballet school I want it spent training the most talented British children to the standard that will get them into paying work. Eventually is simply that there are not as many British national with the characteristics needed. I assume an Each school and company has certain standards I believe and if those are not met or no more met than student are not enrolled or are assessed out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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